Anemone splitting out of control

John Karavias

New member
I had a bubbletip anemone in a reef tank and it split 3x in 8 months. Than I took one of its clones and put it in a different tank with similiar properties. (Not Exact). During the same week, the clone in the new tank split and one of the originials in the reef tank also split. I know have 6 anemones from the original in 10 months. I thought it was outstanding that they the anemones split relatively close in time in different tanks.

Question: Is this rare?
Question: Could it be genetically predetermined to split
Question: Is it worth it to set up an experiment
Question: Should I try to introduce them to other hobbyists so they will have more success in keeping them and save the wild population

Thanks:

John
 
Question: Should I try to introduce them to other hobbyists so they will have more success in keeping them and save the wild population

Sure, Ill be happy to take one off you hands

:) - Jim
 
I'm not sure what's natural. Mine took 2 years to split. If the clones are healthy and eating I wouldn't worry. I see you are a teacher maybe give them to students? Or take them to the LFS. You need to have 50 posts to sell them in the selling forums here.
 
Question: Should I try to introduce them to other hobbyists so they will have more success in keeping them and save the wild population

I can't answer your other questions, but this one I can say I think that is an outstanding idea. The more we can share with each other from our tanks, the more we can leave in the oceans.

I have a rose that came from a fellow reefer, I feel I paid retail value for it and I was happy to do so. IMO, from the things I've read, other's experiences, and now mine, these clones are hardier than their wild caught counter parts. This increases our success as keepers. I was able to find one that was in similar conditions to mine, including lighting, which I hope made the transition easier for it.

My hope is that mine will clone happily in the future. I may keep one more for myself (if they stay pretty closely together). Any others I will sell to those who are ready, for less than the can buy a wc rose. I want to give people an incentive to wait for captive clones, knowing that it will increase their chances of success. Hardier specimen + lower cost = good investment in my mind :)

I hope one day there are waiting lists for clones. While people wait they can continue to reseach, ask questions, and let their tanks mature even more.

Okay, off my soapbox! Good luck!
 
some split fast some slow some clone themselves at 12 inches some at 6 some will continue to split some split after months there is no science to it
 
I read about a neat idea on here recently. There was a LFS that was selling them, but they had them in terracotta pots. This allowed the nems to feel protected (foot in a cave, a place to pull into) and it made it easier to take them out of the tanks, acclimate them, and place them in their new tank - that whole process, the nem didn't have to be touched. They should be able to leave the pot when they're ready.

This may be an option if you plan on selling them either directly from your tank or your LFS.

I wouldn't give them away though. It seems to be human nature that we fight harder for, and take better care of something that costs us something.

Okay, done again :)
 
Ok Folks,

So far it seems people like the idea of introducing them to my local area hobbiest. I agree. However, I do not want to lose in the options to research them and find out why they are splitting like crazy. If I sell them, it will be for the Marine Biology Program, not for my personal use so I would probably give them to students that would keep them alive. I am still looking for suggestions as to researching their splitting in different tanks whick I feel is somethng to look into

John
 
If you're giving them to students you can always have them keep track of all their variables and see what happens with the nems individually. Maybe you will see some patterns emerge. Since yours is already established and is splitting well, you can compare them to yours. the thing they will have in common is genetics, most other things will be variable. You'd be able to do a nature vs environment comparison.
Or, if you can find local hobbiests that are willing to keep a log of the same things you may be able to do both.

good luck!
 
1 Splitting is not rare in the BTA species

2 I can't exactly answer this question, but most of the time anems split due to some significant(not necessarily prolonged) stress. Many split after a big water change, not being fed for a few weeks, light bulb swap, even as little as a top-off can spur it. Usually they get smaller and retract during splits. For a more starightforward answer, clone BTA's are much more likely to split and reproduce than wild caught anems.

3 It is definitely worth it to experiment, putting them in separate tanks and stabalizing them at different params and maybe have a couple destabalized tanks with some changing params. very little testing has been done on anems and much more is left to discover. With clones, you have the advantage of having exact replicas of the exact same DNA structure, so any differences are purely environmental, not biological. Very sound testing can be done with genetic replicas with much less need for control groups as compared to most tests we do on animals and humans.

4 Sure, it's always good to spread the wealth...as for more success in keeping them, sounds like you have all the success you could ask for. Don't really think many people will have much more than 6 splits in 10 months.
 
I am starting my kids this week on daily water quality testing to get a baseline. Than I will take it from there. I intend to donate/sell the nems after I have enough data. I am afraid to get rid of them yet. I want to use them as an instructional tool. Thanks for you posts

John
 
Re: Anemone splitting out of control

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9221303#post9221303 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by John Karavias
I had a bubbletip anemone in a reef tank and it split 3x in 8 months. Than I took one of its clones and put it in a different tank with similiar properties. (Not Exact). During the same week, the clone in the new tank split and one of the originials in the reef tank also split. I know have 6 anemones from the original in 10 months. I thought it was outstanding that they the anemones split relatively close in time in different tanks.

Question: Is this rare?
Question: Could it be genetically predetermined to split
Question: Is it worth it to set up an experiment
Question: Should I try to introduce them to other hobbyists so they will have more success in keeping them and save the wild population

Thanks:

John

For question number 2, I would say it has to do with your BTA's genetics. Since the clones have the same exact DNA as all the others (unless some type of mutation occured) all the BTAs are going to have that urge to split. Your BTA probably has a gene that causes your BTA to split more often. Its not rare for BTAs to split but I would say that splitting as often as yours did is uncommon.

I guess you could compare this to human growth. Some individuals reach a much taller height than others. Obviously this is because of their genetic makeup. Humans don't grow because of the enviroment they are in. They grow based on what their DNA tells them too(although there are exceptions such as the short stature of Eskimos living in cold regions and taller people living in warm regions).

Of course you know all about genetics since your a Biology teacher.:)
 
The thing that makes me question how rare this is because the original split occured in a reef tank 3 years old well established. Then I separated them. A split occured in a tank 3 months old. With "OK" chemistry. I thought they split in good conditions, not bad ones like a fellow member stated above. I am not disagreeig with him, just don't know

John
 
Stress is the major cause of splits. Not saying the only cause, but a very usual suspect. Big water changes, diet changes(not feeding for a week or two), salinity and temp changes, etc. are the biggest factors in splitting. The reasoning is, when an animal is under stress, it feels like it may be dying. When this happens, it does everything it can to stay alive, and the best way to do this is make more of itsself.

On a side note to back my theory, I have an example from ORA in their reproduction of clams(I know, I know, not an anem, but it serves the point). Our club went on a tour of their facility last year. We were walking around and asking questions as we went to each part. When we got to the clam part(not the prop station, that's in another country, Tonga maybe...I forget) someone asked the way they reproduce their clams. The guide explained the process to us.

First, they determine the female. Next, they take it out of water for an hour or so. When this happens, it expells her eggs. She does this, the guide explained, for the fact that she is stressed and thinks she might die. When her eggs expell, they put her back in the water to get fertilized. This is the major part of the process...leaving the female out of water for an hour to stress her into forced reproduction. No clams were harmed in the making of their babies...the females continue on to create many more offspring in the future.
 
If stress is a major contributor thatn why are they stillgrowing? Everything you said as a stress I do not do so I am still unconvinced. As I hope you know Iam not challenging you, just not quite sure theya re splitting due to bad conditions. Ithink it is a combination of great conditions and genetics.... backed up by this happening in 2 tanks

John
 
Well, Im sure that if you keep up what ever your doing, it will continue to split, and if you have any extras, i'd be more than happy to buy some from you...(:
 
I'm not at all saying that yours are caused by stress. I am mearly pointing out that most anemone splits are a reaction to a stress caused on them. Again, you may have absolutely perfect conditions for an anemone and it still may split...I'm not saying that this cannot happen. In fact, it sounds very plausible that it can. Most of the time when someone comes to this site asking what just happened, most of those times it is the cause of stress. My anems would split because of stress, now they stopped and are about 5" each, minimum.

Also, humans do grow to different sizes not only because of genetics, but very much contributed to environmental factors. If we couldn't change the environment so much around us, we would not see so much variation in humans. We would have much more common traits, much more sectored traits purely genetically determined by environment. The example with smaller eskimos is based solely on the fact that they are less likely to spread out across the land, less likely to introduce outsiders into their lifestyles, less likely to be in contact with the range of people in a more desired and populous place, like most of America.

Yes, girraffes wil be of different heights, but you will not see a girraffe with a 1' neck. The reason, natural selection. Because we change our environment, people that live in the cold and people that live in the heat will not have too much difference in temperatures, have the same capability of having light when desired, need not worry about wind chill, growing more hair to keep warm, etc. You cannot change the color of your skin, but there are black, white, etc. skin colors. These are genetically predetermined, but originally came about due to environmental factors.

So maybe the parent clone(the one you got your clone from) was genetically predispositioned to have a stressful environment that altered its clones in some way to reproduce quicker. I would still say that most biological traits are due to environmental factors, which still brings me back to my point that most splits are caused by stress.

Again, not saying you're stressing your BTA's into splitting. It is more likely from what you've told us that you are giving it a very stable and comfortable environment, one in which it feels comfortable enough to split in.

With the clam example I used, this is absolutely not the only way to have clams reproduce. Without ever changing their environment, they will still reproduce at some point. It is just more likely and more of a guaranteed reproduction by taking the above mentioned steps. This is the main reason I continue to mention stress as the major contributor to BTA's(collectively, not yours specifically) splitting.
 
It has to be other factors besides stress. BTAs are not demanding anemones and can usually cope with stress relatively easy compared to some of the other more difficult anemones out there. I think it has to do with that particular anemones genetics.
 
how often do you feed it? Dude, make some dough outta this! I can imagine a signpost....

John Karavias' BTA factory, $60 entry, and in the guft shop free BTA's LOL!
 
I know someone who is setting up a BTA culture system that might be interested in your anemones and will be collecting a LOT of data on water parameters and what conditions are like when they split.

Send me a PM if you want to chat about it.

Brian
 
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