Anemones and antibiotics

[Ron Popeil]

There have been a few threads of people experimenting with antibiotics on their anemones, specifically their h. magnificas.

Can we have people list the antibiotics they have used with the greatest success and why they used the doses and methods they did while using them?

I understand the implications of hobbyists getting their hands on these antibiotics and the dangers of not fully understanding their use. But i feel like there is real promise here and would like to explore this in greater detail.

Bonsai, was there anything mentioned in your anemone book regarding infections/diseases in anemones?

 

[Ron Popeil]

maxII refers to using a single 100mg tablet of Doxycycline during the rehabilitation of his magnifica. why this? why this amount? and why does ammonia increase with this antibiotic as AD87 experienced?

M Woodhill mentioned "...eye drops? it contains polymyxin and gramicidin, of which both r strong antibiotics" and "penicillin soaked frozen shrimp. usin 3/16 amount for an adult a day"

Orion suggests Baycol or as AD87 expanded, Enrofloxacin.

Where are these coming from? I remember an older thread awhile back on anemones and and antibiotics, but then what?

 

[Winwood]

Very interested in this topic and will be tagging along.

 

[sedgro]

I've used Ciprofloxin both as a prescription & for aquatics under the trade name Fishfloxin. The fluoroquinolones are a very much unused class of antibiotics in aquaria. They are bacteriocidal, cover gram positive & negative bacteria, and are effective against Vibrio sp., often cited as causing infection in anemones. I've used anywhere from 1-2 gm/10 gal with good effect. They are less effective in alkaline water though.

Would advise against polymixin. There is a reason it is only used topically in humans - it acts like a detergent breaking down bacterial cell walls- not sure what it's effect would be on a simple organism like an anemone. Colistin, related, is so toxic it is only used as a last resort in humans.

 

[Ron Popeil]

sedgro, thank you for the input!

do you have access to any links that identify vibrio as a soure of infection in anemones? how did you settle on 1-2 gm/10 gal as an effective dose?

what was the process in which you used fishfloxin as a method against infection?

 

[sedgro]

Here is the reference;

Sprung, J. 2000. Reef Notes. FAMA 23(7): 156+

Bacterial disease is principal cause of death in captive anemones.
Probably Vibrio spp. and compared to uncharacterized disease of stony corals. No reference.


The recommended dose by the manufacturer is 500mg in 2 gal as a dip. I have played around with it some to come up with my dose. It seems to be effective. I have had a few anemones bleach, but that may have been because they were sick already.


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[ousnakebyte]

Here we've used Baytril (Enrofloxacin) many times in a bath for both tropical and coldwater anemones. It's been a while since the last anemone was treated, but I *think* it was around 1mL per 10 Liters for 5 hours - using an airstone to keep the water oxygenated.

The problem is that sometimes a given anemone makes it, other times they don't - and there is no rhyme, reason or discernable pattern one way or the other.

In numerous anemones I've sent to the pathologists over the years, Vibrio spp. is always found. In fact, Vibrio is found in all our marine systems. But... is it the actual cause for the initial decline or a secondary agent that takes over when an animal is already compromised?

As Randy stated in Woodhill's magnifica thread, anemones - and most invertebrates for that matter - are just not taught in vet school and we know very little about them compared to the vertebrate counterparts, with the exception of how to eliminate them as pests (fleas, ticks, mosquitos, worms, etc.)

Cheers
Mike

 

[BonsaiNut]

Bonsai, was there anything mentioned in your anemone book regarding infections/diseases in anemones?

Not only is nothing listed in that book - there is nothing listed in the extensive reference section either. I have looked over the last year and have found nothing - no papers, no scientific work whatsoever - on the subject.

I just sent an email to two separate anemone scientists to see if either of them has any thoughts - but it may be a while until I hear back; at least one of them is on holiday until mid January.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

In numerous anemones I've sent to the pathologists over the years, Vibrio spp. is always found. In fact, Vibrio is found in all our marine systems. But... is it the actual cause for the initial decline or a secondary agent that takes over when an animal is already compromised?

Another possibility is that it is one of many species that may be endemic to anemone surfaces, but isn't pathogenic. Our bodies, for example, are covered with all sorts of bacteria, on our skin, in the GI tract, nose, urinary tract, etc. But most of these are not actually causing problems. Some might even be beneficial, as we have in our GI tracts and seem to be present in some inverts, such as sponges.

It would be very interesting to see some bacterial comparisons of healthy aquarium anemones, wild ones, and those that seem on the way to death.

 

[sedgro]

Randy,

I agree that just because Vibrio are found on anemones it doesn't necessarily mean it is the culprti disease causing organism. However, most of the beneficial bacteria found on and in the human body can cause severe infections given the right opportunity. Perhaps, it is the same way with anemones? The stress of shipping or a new environment makes them susceptible to an opportunistic infection.


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[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Yes, it is certainly possible that good bacteria run amok can be a problem.

 

[M Woodhill]

i used

two human antibiotics

amocilin and what what

and fish antibiotics erythromycin

for human antibiotics, i quarantined it with a hospital tank

for fish antibiotics, i followed the instruction on the bottle and dosed the entire dt

all i can say is, it's still alive but the deflation and inflation pattern changes after every treatment

first it deflated and inflated at a random rate, showin no reaction to shrimp and the mouth never closin

then i quarantined it for 4/5 days first with amocilin and then ....din

it then deflated and inflated every 12 hours and each deflation lasted for 3/4 hours

then i left it there and this continued around 2 weeks

yet i didn't feed. the mouth closed tight durin the hour right before deflation

then i dosed the dt with erythromycin and turned off the carbon. but meanwhile i added seachem phosguard and purigen into my sock

now it deflated once a day but for 6/7 hours. the deflation is always triggered by the dimmin of lightin at 7 then it very soon deflated flat on the rock. every mornin it started to inflate fully within an hour when lightin is on. i feed it with a chunk of shrimp every 9 or 10 o'clock and it eats

not till now have i seen the final result

but one thing i can confirm is no ammonia spike after dosin dt with erythromycin. yet the dt underwent one or two days of cloudy water

i agree with orion

next time if i treat an anemone with antibiotics

i'd put it in hospital so long to make sure it completely recovers or dies

or i agree with some vets

i'd dose dt with some fish antibiotics

 

[AD87]

I have used Doxy in the past but in my case i think it was to late for treatment.

I have spoke to Boomer and he has pointed out that Neomycin Sulfate might be the best option for treating. Im not sure since i have never used it.

 

[OrionN]

I suggested Baycol because it have broader spectrum and it is something that Woodhill had on hand (a little out of date, but that should be no problem)
I never used antibiotic but will use it the next time I got a sick anemone. It is hard to suggest antibiotic without knowing what, if any bacterial involved. The few times that I read about treatment, I t seem to me that antibiotic may be useful.
As to to the dose, most antibiotic these day are water soluble and most have a wide distribution in our body. I suggest use what we human use for every 15-20 g of water which is the approximate weight of normal human (60-75 kg). I do not suggest re-dose the tank because our tank do not have significant mechanism to clear the antibiotic form the system quickly (liver and kidney in our body)
FWIW, I am a medical doctor and have no training in treating anemone. Any treatment is purely empiric with no data to back this up. I do keep anemones for a long time and did my share of killing anemones. I think I am experience enough to see that Magnifica and Gigantea that have repeated deflation after the first 4=7 days are dead anemone unless we do something drastic like treat them with antibiotic.

I know that some author stated that they treat anemone with antibiotic but in my reading I have not come up with dosage anywhere. I suggested that, it we treat our anemone with antibiotic, we really should try to keep accurate data as to what happen how we treated, include why we come up with certain dose, even if it is just a guess. It can only help increase our collective experiences.

 

[jeffreylesser]

I like others mentioned in the sticky "Pedal laceration in Gigantea" have had limited results using enrofloxacin to treat Giganteas. For what its worth I outlined the dosages that I tried in my failed attempts. There were times for sure when it seemed as though the antibiotics were having an effect only to have the symptoms return. The OP on this thread, Beuchat, did have some success treating a Magnifica earlier, using both Chloramphenicol and Enrofloxacin. It is discussed in the thread below. The pictures are pretty convincing here, and definitely got me interested in the idea of antibiotic treatment of anemones.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1889611

Some other reading material:

The Reef aquarium Volume 2, Page 359. Anemones - Use of Antibiotics. Interesting but a bit vague on the details. Streptomycin, Neomycin, and Chloramphenicol are mentioned.

Coral Magazine Volume 3 Number 4 - Pathogenic Bacteria in the aquarium - Part I. Article on Bacteria, primarily Vibrio in aquarium fish species. Antibiotics and some dosages are mentioned. Tetracycline, Chloramphenicol, Enrofloxacin, and Marboflxacin are mentioned.

A paper on the use of Enrofloxacin in the treatment of vibrio in Koi, dosages and treatments mentioned, but it is for freshwater fish.
http://research.rdi.ku.ac.th/world/showItem.php?itemID=115851&lang=en

 

[Arati]

<case study> Mag , e.africa red based. deflation when the lights are on mouth gaping insides exposed or pushed out x 9 days

< course of treateatment> Abx Bath Enrofloxacin , 2.27mg per 5 gallon of water (loosely translated from Beachat on another thread) this dose should be about 70% strength of his.

how long should an anemone remain in an abx bath?

since we are all quessing at this point if you are just reading this please be aware this information is at best speculation.

how long would you guys leave in the abx bath

thnx ill be following this up with results and more info in the near future. (fwiw the anemone responded to the bath and looked much better within the first hour)

 

[jeffreylesser]

<case study> Mag , e.africa red based. deflation when the lights are on mouth gaping insides exposed or pushed out x 9 days

< course of treateatment> Abx Bath Enrofloxacin , 2.27mg per 5 gallon of water (loosely translated from Beachat on another thread) this dose should be about 70% strength of his.

how long should an anemone remain in an abx bath?

since we are all quessing at this point if you are just reading this please be aware this information is at best speculation.

how long would you guys leave in the abx bath

thnx ill be following this up with results and more info in the near future. (fwiw the anemone responded to the bath and looked much better within the first hour)

The koi studies suggest a daily 5 hour bath. I have tried 5-24 hours. I found amonia difficult to keep up with on a 24 hour schedule. No lights in the bath either as I believe it will break down the medication. I did not have The best results myself with this medication. Good luck.

 

[BonsaiNut]

I got a note back from Dr. Scott, and she said she was not aware of any papers on the subject of anemone diseases or bacterial infections (and/or the use of antibiotics), though she had had some similar experiences (to those we refer to in this and other threads) about a single sick individual "infecting" a tank of healthy ones. She said that she had thought it was due to the sick/dying anemone impacting water quality, but in retrospect it could also be disease related.

 

[LisaE]

I have a S.gigantea that I believe has a bacterial infection. I bought her from a LFS on February 25, and she had been doing well, attached to a rock and eating. Then she began deflating daily and when I fed her Monday night, she spit the food back out just a short time later. So, on Tuesday I put her into a separate hospital tank (a "14" gallon biocube), with the rock she was attached to, and began treating with Maracyn (erythromycin). On Thursday I was able to get some liquid Baytril from a very nice and understanding vet who also has an aquarium. I did a complete water change (using my DT water) and dosed Baytril at approx 1 mg/L (liquid 10% Baytril has a concentration of 100mg/1ml). This was at approximately 9pm last night.

Today at noon the water chemistry was as follows: NH4 1 ppm, NO2 0, NO3 5ppm, 7.8 pH, PO4 0.1 ppm. I did another complete water change (also using DT water). I am planning to repeat the dosing of Baytril daily for 10 days, checking the chemistry and doing water changes as needed.

I'm hoping to get results like Beuchat with his H.magnifica in this thread:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1889611

but based on the results from this thread

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1942967

I suppose my chances are 50/50.

I am leaving the lights on. So far, the anemone seems to be reacting well to this.

I'm planning to do the treatment for 10 days, then leave the anemone in the biocube for several more days with water from the DT but with no antibiotic to see how she fares before returning to the DT.

Keep your fingers crossed for me please! I would appreciate any suggestions.

Here are photos:

 

[jeffreylesser]

I have a S.gigantea that I believe has a bacterial infection. I bought her from a LFS on February 25, and she had been doing well, attached to a rock and eating. Then she began deflating daily and when I fed her Monday night, she spit the food back out just a short time later. So, on Tuesday I put her into a separate hospital tank (a "14" gallon biocube), with the rock she was attached to, and began treating with Maracyn (erythromycin). On Thursday I was able to get some liquid Baytril from a very nice and understanding vet who also has an aquarium. I did a complete water change (using my DT water) and dosed Baytril at approx 1 mg/L (liquid 10% Baytril has a concentration of 100mg/1ml). This was at approximately 9pm last night.

Today at noon the water chemistry was as follows: NH4 1 ppm, NO2 0, NO3 5ppm, 7.8 pH, PO4 0.1 ppm. I did another complete water change (also using DT water). I am planning to repeat the dosing of Baytril daily for 10 days, checking the chemistry and doing water changes as needed.

I'm hoping to get results like Beuchat with his H.magnifica in this thread:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1889611

but based on the results from this thread

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1942967

I suppose my chances are 50/50.

I am leaving the lights on. So far, the anemone seems to be reacting well to this.

I'm planning to do the treatment for 10 days, then leave the anemone in the biocube for several more days with water from the DT but with no antibiotic to see how she fares before returning to the DT.

Keep your fingers crossed for me please! I would appreciate any suggestions.

Here are photos:

That is a monster anemone! Good luck with treatment, from the pics it doesn't look too bad. If you can get away with more frequent water changes it may be better. I had similar results at 1ppm NH4 after 24 hours. I also did 100% water changes. It was hard on the anemone. It was tiring on me as well. After 5 days I didn't think the anemone was going to tollerate any further treatment. If I did it again, I might try it with 5 hour daily baths, a rinse cylce and then into a clean tank with some biological filtration. I have done the 5 hour bath method with this antibiotic to treat finrot on a wrasse and it worked great.

To make it easier on myself I put the anemone in a bowl/colander for transport into a new 5 gallon bucket with clean water and new antibiotics. There is no point in attempting biological filtration when using a gram negative/positive antibiotic it will pretty much kill all the bacteria in that tank. Again, good luck.