Another Elegance Dying – Aussi

[Grasshopper23]

Another Elegance Dying "“ Aussi

To the best of my knowledge this is an Aussi Elegance. It has a big flat cut on the bottom. Body 5" x 1-2" and "œI" shaped. When fully expanded it is probably 8-10" x 4-6". I bought it at BAYMAC on 5/8/10. It was big healthy, hungry, awesome. I noticed the first signs of ECS (Elegance Coral Syndrome) on 6/19. There was one small section of maybe 5-10 tentacles that were very short and bunched up close to the mouth (oral disc? "“ I am not sure of the definition of oral disc so I will call it the mouth). I thought something had picked at or agitated the tentacles.

By 6/24 I was sure I had a problem. There were many short tentacles in multiple locations, maybe 15% of coral. I also started seeing whitish slime in these trouble spots "“ sure sign of ECS.

6/25 "“ reading other posts I see that some people have had luck with Melafix. I did a 5 minute dip in 2 gallons with 35ml of Melafix. As of today it did not seem to help and the elegance looks even worse. Anyone else have luck with Melafix?

Pictures in order "“ 6/19 problem spot on lower left, 6/24, 6/25, 6/26.

Additional Tank Notes;

I added a tigertail cucumber on 6/19 (day before elegance started symptoms) and have not seen him since. Could the elegance have eaten him? He ate one of my snails a couple of weeks ago.

This is my second elegance. I had an Indo elegance bought in August 2009 and it made it until about October. It suffered from ECS. Could the ECS from this elegance removed 6+ months ago still have been in my tank and infected my current elegance?

About of 1/3 of my Acro colony bleached out and I removed it on 6/24. I noticed some small black worms on parts of the bleached out coral "“ very small 1/8-1/4" and as thin as splinters or thick hairs. I need to ID these and saw a few other posts with similar descriptions but no ID. They are too small to photo. Birdsnest also started bleaching on 6/25. I removed the affected branch and also dipped this colony in the Melafix. All other corals seem OK "“ frogspawns, blastos, acans, duncan, clover, torch, xenias, mushrooms, GSP"¦

Water parameters are fine.

 

[Ian]

I wouldn't worry about it too much yet. I have 4-5 elegance and they all seem to go through short periods of not being fully inflated.

You may want to PM "Elegance Coral" and link this thread as he seems to be the most experienced with these corals.

Keep up posted on how it does in the coming days...

 

[elegance coral]

I am totally guessing here, but it sounds to me like your cucumber may have died. When they die, they can release toxins into the water. This would explain why you haven't seen it, your SPS have died, and your elegance is stressed. I would do the largest water change you can realistically do. Even healthy elegance will withdraw their tentacles like that if there is an offensive substance in the water. I've had this happen when angry soft corals are to close, I went to long between water changes, the temperature went to high, and once when the wife got carried away with the air freshener.:mad2:

IMHO The infection that goes along with this so called "ECS", is not unlike any other infection. There are many variables that determine if the coral will fall victim or not. You can rest assured there are infectious microbes in your system, as there are in every system. The key to keeping your coral from falling victim to these microbes is to keep the coral as healthy and stress free as possible. Once the coral is stressed, for any reason, it becomes much more susceptible to infection. All elegance corals share the same self defence mechanisms. Their response to infection will be very similar regardless of what brought on the infection in the first place. The symptoms we see in these coral (withdrawn tentacles, excess slime, mesenterial filaments protruding from the tissue........) may be very similar from one individual to another, but the trigger that brought on the infection may be very different. The term "ECS" was coined by Eric Borneman to describe a condition, he believes, is brought on by a rouge microbe that is going around attacking and killing healthy corals. This illusive microbe has never been found. What has been found is multiple microbes invading tissue that is damaged or weakened. Again IMHO, this infection is secondary to some influence that weakened or damaged the coral, and left it susceptible to infection from many different organisms.

There is obviously something going wrong in your system. If this was caused by some elegance coral eating microbe, it would not be affecting your SPS corals. IMHO, your SPS corals and elegance are probably suffering from the same stress inducing factor. The small black worms you found on your SPS corals may simply be opportunistic scavengers cleaning up dead, or dieing, SPS tissue??????? I believe, if you can remedy this problem, there is a good chance your elegance will bounce back. Finding the exact cause of this situation my be problematic, but a large water change and maybe a good spring cleaning may be all that's needed.

 

[Grasshopper23]

Thanks for the insight Elegance Coral. I think you might be right and a large water change is in order. The tigertail I put in on 6/19 was a good size ~5-6" (pic attached). Not having seen him since is very odd and he is probably dead. I will move some rocks during the water change to see if I can find a body. When I dipped the elegance in Melafix I stirred up the sand he was covering to see if I could find any remains. The only thing I found was the "door" from the snail he had eaten.

I have a 75G with a 29G sump. Total water volume is ~85G. Would one massive 40G change be better than two 20G changes?

Did you ever try Melafix on a sick elegance with success or know anyone that has? I did read that huge article by Eric Borneman and I think it was inconclusive, but unlikely, if he thought ECS would survive in the water column for any significant amount of time without a host. Your thoughts?

Thanks again for your help.

 

[Grasshopper23]

I found the Tiger Tail Cucumber!!! During my second 10% water change this week I did some sand vacuuming and I think I may have stirred him up. I didn't think they borrowed into the sand... do they? Anyway saw him last night and see him today a few inches away so he is alive and moving.

So the cucumber nuke theory is out on why the elegance is stressed is out. However I am still going to do a 25% water change. The elegance does seem to be stable and maybe even improving. Could it be the Melafix dip? Anyone have any experience with this?

 

[Nebthet]

It could also be a lighting. If it was collected in deep water, your lighs could be too bright and it is slowly acclimating to it.

 

[whatcaneyedo]

Did the retailer who sold you the elegance say that it was an Australian? Just looking at the skeleton isn't a true indicator of their origin.

 

[Grasshopper23]

I have looked for info on the difference of Aussie vs Indo and I can't find any strong differentiators. Indos are supposed to have a cone bottom and darker colors. Aussies lighter and usually a cut flat bottom - like it was a colony that was chopped up. Do you know of any other differentiators?

 

[whatcaneyedo]

I've heard the same thing about small cone shaped skeletons being Indo and skeletons that look like they've been cut from a larger colony being Aussi. But I've also been told that this isn't always the case. I believe the only real way to tell is by a truthful retailer telling you where it was imported from.

 

[mesocosm]

Greetings All !

... The term "ECS" was coined by Eric Borneman to describe a condition, he believes, is brought on by a rouge microbe that is going around attacking and killing healthy corals. This illusive microbe has never been found. ...

Indeed, and the odds of discovering a single pathogen that's responsible for the varied degradation of Catalaphyllia specimens coming out of the Indonesian region during the last 15 years is becoming less likely. The emergent research is taking us to another place ... a place that utilizes the concept of a coral's holobiont. Historically, the difficulty of assigning a single pathogen to a particular coral disease has been recognized for a long time ...

Reports of new and emerging coral diseases have proliferated in recent years. Such coral diseases are often cited as contributing to coral reef decline. Many of these diseases, however, have been described solely on the basis of field characteristics, and in some instances there is disagreement as to whether an observed coral condition is actually a disease. A disease pathogen has been identified for only three coral diseases, and for only two of these has the pathogen been shown (in the laboratory) to be the disease agent. In one case, the same disease name has been used for several widely varying coral syndromes, whereas in another multiple disease names have been applied to symptoms that may be caused by a single disease.

Coral diseases: what is really known?
Laurie L. Richardson
Trends in Ecology & Evolution
Volume 13, Issue 11, 1 November 1998, Pages 438-443

BTW, anyone interested in a better understanding of the term "holobiont" can find a good introductory article by Merry Youle here:
http://www.thereeftank.com/blog/the-coral-holobiont/




More advanced information regarding the term "holobiont" and how it relates to coral diseases can be found here ...

Microbial disease and the coral holobiont
David G. Bourne, Melissa Garren, Thierry M. Work, Eugene Rosenberg, Garriet W. Smith and C. Drew Harvell
Trends in Microbiology, Volume 17, Issue 12, 554-562, 12 October 2009


The roles and interactions of symbiont, host and environment in defining coral fitness
Mieog JC, Olsen JL, Berkelmans R, Bleuler-Martinez SA, Willis BL, van Oppen MJ.
PLoS One. 2009 Jul 24;4(7):e6364.


The Effects of Anthropogenic Stress on the Coral Holobiont: New Insights into Coral Disease
(A dissertation submitted in partial satisfaction of the requirements for the degree Doctor of Philosophy in Marine Biology)
David Ivan Kline
University of San Diego
2004
Full Dissertation (pdf)
http://cmbc.ucsd.edu/content/1/docs/Thesis_complete.pdf


Extracts from this dissertation, along with my incoherent ranting & other references that aren't listed above, can be found here:
http://www.zeovit.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8329

:lol:





The emergent research-based conceptualization of coral diseases is nicely presented in this one (the underlining is mine) ...

Emerging infectious diseases are a worldwide problem and are believed to play a major role in coral reef degradation. The study of coral diseases is difficult but the use of culture-independent molecular techniques has been, and will continue to be, useful in a system where a limited number of visible signs are commonly used to define a “coral disease”. We propose that coral “diseases”, with rare exception, are opportunistic infections secondary to exposure to physiological stress (e.g. elevated temperature) that result in reduced host resistance and unchecked growth of bacteria normally benign and non-pathogenic. These bacteria are from the environment, the host, or the coral mucus layer and become opportunistic pathogens. While difficult and time consuming, we do not advocate abandoning the study of disease-causing pathogens in corals. However, these studies should include comprehensive efforts to better understand the relationship between coral diseases and environmental changes, largely anthropogenic in nature, occurring on coral reefs around the world. These environmental insults are the cause of the physiological stress that subsequently leads to coral mortality and morbidity by many mechanisms including overwhelming infections by opportunistic pathogens.


Are infectious diseases really killing corals? Alternative interpretations of the experimental and ecological data
Michael P. Lessera, John C. Bythell, Ruth D. Gates, Ron W. Johnstone and Ove Hoegh-Guldberg
Journal of Experimental Marine Biology and Ecology
Volume 346, Issues 1-2, 3 August 2007, Pages 36-44.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...serid=10&md5=5f4d472d7aff49168162ef0800a54da5

In other words, elegance coral knows what he's talking about ... :beer:

I have looked for info on the difference of Aussie vs Indo and I can't find any strong differentiators. ...

That's because, with regards to Catalaphyllia jardinei, there aren't any ...

... Aussies lighter and usually a cut flat bottom - like it was a colony that was chopped up. ...

There was a brief timeframe around two years ago when a flat bottom cut on a Catalaphyllia specimen was relatively diagnostic of an Australian exporter, but those days are long gone. Coloration variation, while sometimes characteristic of a geographical region (particularly with regards to Acropora species & their allies), is generally a weak indicator when trying to differentiate source regions. Unless one can get access to the CITES documentation, the information provided by an experienced, reliable, and trustworthy retailer remains the best way to assess a coral specimen's geographical source region.




JMO ... HTH
:thumbsup:

 

[Ian]

I believe the only real way to tell is by a truthful retailer telling you where it was imported from.

Unless one can get access to the CITES documentation, the information provided by an experienced, reliable, and trustworthy retailer remains the best way to assess a coral specimen's geographical source region.

JMO ... HTH
:thumbsup:

It's most definitely an Australian import

 

[Grasshopper23]

Update - in the past 3 months I have dipped the elegance 3 times. Twice with Melafix and once with Reef Dip Coral Disinfectant. The first Melafix dip definitely seemed to help. The tenticals still are not extending but he opens up. The other two dips seemed to stress him for a few days but all in all it seems an improvement. I am not going to dip him anymore and give it a couple/few months and see what happens.

He will feed when I spot feed mysis and Arcti Pods. His tenticales still are not very sticky but some can hold onto food. This also makes him start to close up. I then spot feed into where he is closing. I do this about once a week.

I did leave him under an overhang for a few weeks to reduce the light but that did not seem to help and I don't think this is a light issue.

Anyone with a stressed or dying elegance I recommend doing a Melafix dip. I used about 30ml in 2 gallons for 10 minutes gently swirling the water every couple of minutes.

 

[aqualove]

Any updates regarding above ?

 

[Grasshopper23]

Update - elegance still looks about the same as my last post and pictures in October. I have had this coral for almost a year. It's poor but stable condition has been going on for about 8 or 9 months. Anyone else have a similar experience? If it was dying I figure it would be dead by now.

I did a 24 hour dip with Interceptor on a few pieces for red (SPS) and white bugs (LPS) - worked great. I figured I would put in the elegance as well. That was yesterday and no noticeable change.

 

[elegance coral]

I have dealt with allot of elegance just like yours. I wouldn't worry about treating the coral for parasites, because I don't believe it's under attack by any. IMHO your coral has gone through a very rough time. It will take a very long time for it to return to its former glory. Think of it like a human with a severe case of pneumonia. As their body fights the illness it will begin to consume its own tissues for fuel. The person will lose fat and muscle tissue in the process. After they have won the battle with pneumonia (or any serious ailment) they will be left a much smaller, frailer version of their former self. It can take a very long time for such a person to rebuild the tissue, and strength, that was lost. I believe your coral is going through a very similar process. It's no longer suffering from the problem that caused it to become ill in the first place, but it has lost overall mass, nematocysts/prey capture ability, and its tentacles have withdrawn. It will take a very long time for the coral to rebuild these lost resources. In the meantime it will be frail and weak.

I know it can be difficult and frustrating to feed the coral in its current state. Sometimes it may eat. Others it may not. Sometimes the feeding response is so slow that other critters, or the flow in the tank, will steal the food before it can be ingested. I believe it's important to get this nourishment into the coral though. I typically take a small piece of marine meet like fish or shrimp, no exoskeletons, bones, or scales, and wiggle it in the corals tentacles. Hopefully, the coral moves the food to a mouth and consumes it. In really weak corals, I have had some success with gently holding a piece of food directly on the mouth. This takes a great deal of patience and it's very easy to press to hard and cause more harm than good.

I believe your coral has a very good chance of full recovery from this point. It will take excellent conditions, and a great deal of patience from you. In time it should begin to build mass, its tentacles should lengthen, light colored bands of nematocysts should begin to appear around the tentacles, and it should resume laying down calcium carbonate. Just don't expect any of this to happen over night. It may take several years for the coral to look like the one in my avatar, but I believe it has the potential.

Keep up the good work
EC

 

[BonsaiNut]

Your elegance appears to me to be starving. I agree with EC that it is consuming its own tissues to survive. It also appears very light to me - like it has very little zooxanthellae. Its general coloration is very pale - versus elegance that I have kept that were dark brown and very bright green. Why are you under the impression that it is getting too much light considering how bleached it looks? In your first photo when the coral looks best, it appears almost completely bleached. These are photosynthetic animals - they should look dark brown under their outer layer of fluorescent green (UVR blocking) pigmentation. Note how from the time you have gotten it, it has lost almost 50% of its pigmentation. That is one more sign that your light may not be bright enough.

I agree with what EC is saying - I see nothing that leads me to believe it has parasites. It appears to just be a badly bleached coral that is starving. I would hold off on the dips for now and worry more about lighting.

The last one of these I had I eventually had to trade because it was getting too big for my tank at 12" skeleton. It was about 18" beneath dual 175 watt MH with 4 x 96 watt VHO Actinic and Actinic Blue fluorescents. It looked like a giant anemone with extremely long tentacles. Very dark (healthy brown) coloration.

 

[mscarpena]

Mine has looked like that for about 2.5 years now. IMO they just adapted to environment and mine is growing and doing well.

 

[BonsaiNut]

Mine has looked like that for about 2.5 years now.

Looked like what?

 

[elegance coral]

Mine has looked like that for about 2.5 years now. IMO they just adapted to environment and mine is growing and doing well.

I agree that organisms can adapt to their environment, but that can be far different from "doing well". The fact that an animal survives in a particular environment doesn't indicate that it does well in that environment. You can see this in many different species from all around the globe. Those that live in ideal conditions grow large, reproduce often, live longer, are more disease resistant, and become physically stronger than those of the same species that live in harsher environments. This is overwhelmingly obvious in elegance corals. They all have the potential to grow massive polyps, with long flowing tentacles, densely packed bands on nematocysts, rapid feeding response, and rapid skeletal growth. These are corals in peak physical condition. Those individuals with smaller polyps, short tentacles, few nematocysts, slow feeding response, and slow skeletal growth, like the one pictured above, are individuals that are not "doing well".

 

[NYCBOB]

its going to take several years? that sounded too long imo. coral can recover quite quickly. i would say several months, but not years.