Another "Get off my lawn" moment from the washed-up: ULNS??

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karsseboom said:
I was questioning your credibility because you said carbon dosing and microorganisms are snake oil? Wow
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unknown ingredients/no explanations is akin to snake oil does not = carbon dosing and micro-organisms are snake oil !

what's so hard to understand ? honestly, trying to show you 'reason' makes my head want to explode. i'm compelled to say that.

any claim about anything (product) DEFINITIVELY affecting anything, better have concrete proof to back those claims up. anecdotal evidence from a relatively small amount of a highly subjective population is merely chatter.

look, if you think you're system is 'da bomb', you're certainly entitled to think so, for WHATEVER reasons you have.

when you spout them as dogma, well, then, people are simply gonna call you out on it.

here's the challenge:

convince me, logically, and with reasonably objective proofs, that i should buy these products, and obtain an advantage over running a system w/out them.

you'll have me sold :)
 
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please bear in mind that my future tank, for the sake of the sales pitch, is nothing like your tank, nor will the attention to any other husbandry practices be identical ;)

(you'll see it's not the same as explaining the logic behind the 'golden ratio' (alk/Ca/Mg) or other biologically related subjects like carbon dosing that directly pertain to aquarium inhabitants in general) ;)
 
vitz said:
unknown ingredients/no explanations is akin to snake oil does not = carbon dosing and micro-organisms are snake oil !

what's so hard to understand ? honestly, trying to show you 'reason' makes my head want to explode. i'm compelled to say that.

any claim about anything (product) DEFINITIVELY affecting anything, better have concrete proof to back those claims up. anecdotal evidence from a relatively small amount of a highly subjective population is merely chatter.

look, if you think you're system is 'da bomb', you're certainly entitled to think so, for WHATEVER reasons you have.

when you spout them as dogma, well, then, people are simply gonna call you out on it.

here's the challenge:

convince me, logically, and with reasonably objective proofs, that i should buy these products, and obtain an advantage over running a system w/out them.

you'll have me sold :)
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Your ignoring what I wrote again. I explained what is in zeovit and how it works.


Here are the basic four to the system.

Zeostart 3: is a carbon source that uses vinegar.

Zeobak: is microorganisms and a bacteria source.

Zeolites/zeostones: are placed in the reactor and are a place to harbor the bacteria that we dose. (Zeostart and zeobak) they are dosed into the reactor.

Now that is the foundation for the system, nothing else. All those I named are already proven to work at lowering no3 and po4 in aquaria. Just basic carbon dosing with added bacteria.

Now there are other additives to help you along the way. Most of them are a food source like amino acids. Again amino acids are proven to darken the tissue on Sps corals by adding nutrients back into the water.

I don't see the mystery here? Those things are very effective at lowering the nutrients in a system. Just like bio pellets or vodka.

There are some additives they offer that don't exactly list the ingredients but they are not crucial to the system. Infact I don't use them either. I use the basic four with a little food for my corals and that's it. It would be like any other method of carbon dosing. I never once used the term magic potion. You can achieve the similar results using other carbon dosed based methods, I just think zeovit works better and dosent require a refugium or gfo.

The other thing I like about zeovit is you have total control of you nutrient levels. Example: if I want to lower p04 all I need to do is increase the flow through the reactor or lower my dosages of zeostart and zeobak. If I want my corals to have darker tissue I can dose more amino acids or reduce the quantity of the the basic four. I don't think other methods give me the flexibility like zeovit.

I don't think running side by side test is a bad thing. You and others are missing point. It's just hard to do with a system like zeovit because there are to many variable with the system, not nessesarly the aqaurium.

Like I said earlier the problem with zeovit and the stigma that goes with it. Is there are a lot of bottles that claim to do certain things and we experienced reefers know there is never a bottle you can just dose that will perform miracles. We have been fooled to many times in the past by other various claims. The thing is those other unexplained bottles are not nessesary in the system and most zeovit user don't even use then all.

So I can relate to your confusion but please understand the bases for the system is just carbon dosing to lower nutrient and then feeding the corals to help replace the lost elements that are used up. A pretty common concept in reefing nowadays.

And of course there are a million ways to skin a cat, zeovit just happens to be one method that I feel works great and gives me more options on how I want my corals to look.
 
vitz said:
the problem w/your assertion about my statement being condescending is that a 12 yr. old COULD actually do it. lots of 12 yr. olds can follow simple procedural directions ;)


for all/any of you who don't seem to be able to grasp some very simple concepts:

'magic' in the sense/context of this discussion (at least the intent/definition i'm using) can be illustrated thusly:

a long time ago (maybe not so long), no one knew what the sun was, or what laws/forces influence/govern its apparent behavior in the sky. w/no scientific knowledge, any and all explanations/assertions made are exactly akin to calling those reasons 'magic'-which is really a word meaning - 'i have no clue why or how'. if everyone was just willing to accept that for life/world observations we'd be w/out the wheel today, and people would be limited to keeping goldfish bowls only ;)

i find it odd how people here seem to know, definitively, that this zeostuff is
affecting coral pigmentation on one hand w/ absolutely no proof, or even a reasonable hypothesis as to why this happens, and i'm sure that there's a plethora of people who dose that 'stuff' the same way they've seen someone else do it while getting different results.

there are nice looking zeovit tanks, and crappy ones. there are nice looking non zeovit tanks, and ones that look crappy. but it's not *because* of the zeovit, or lack thereof. nor is there anything involved other than kasserboom's (or anyone else's) purely subjective personal aesthetic opinion/sensibility, as regards statements like 'zeovit tanks are the most beautiful' or 'can be picked out from a mile away'. ;)

NO ONE here has yet to provide a convincing argument to back up the assertion that one can manipulate coral pigmentation by zeovit-by kasserboom's own admission that there's too many variables automatically faults any assertion he makes about zeovit (get it?) if there's too many variables to test, there's too many variables to assert any effects from one particular item, either.

you can't have it both ways-kinda like the old 'irresistible force meets unmovable object' argument ;)

it all boils down to how the system is managed. NOT about some particular product.

the only ones who truly have something to directly gain from its use are the ones who sell it-if you could get result 'a' regardless of whether or not you used a 'miracle product, or a bottle of 'liquid magic', why would you go to the trouble and expense of using something completely unnecessary?

(this goes for ANY 'miracle product'-remember the backyard dirt sold as 'miracle mud' ? zeostuff is in the EXACT same league-hocus pocus mumbo jumbo ;) )
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Dude,

Just put a few drops of Zeospur2 in your tank and stop pulling our chain!!.
It will lighten your corals. If it doesn't, I will hold my hands up.

The proof of the pudding is in the tasting... If you've never dosed it, why are you sprouting forth. It's getting a little boring!.

Mo
 
Another entertaining thread, almost as good as a mindless reality show. We need to figure out a way to capture and market this nonsense. Some people just need a reason to bicker.

I wrote several paragraphs and deleted them because it is not worth it. I will leave with this...

Can someone send this guy one ml of Zeospur2.
 
ridetheducati said:
Another entertaining thread, almost as good as a mindless reality show. We need to figure out a way to capture and market this nonsense. Some people just need a reason to bicker.

I wrote several paragraphs and deleted them because it is not worth it. I will leave with this...

Can someone send this guy one ml of Zeospur2.
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How will I know what I'm adding to the municipal sewer when I flush it?
 
one way zeostart 3 works better than most other carbon dosing methods is: It has nitrate in it. carbon dosing works exceptionally well at reducing nitrates but has a bit more trouble at getting phosphate below .03. With the Redfield ratio I do not remember exactly but I think you need 16 nitrates to one phosphate, this added nitrate helps reduce phosphate better. Zeostart is not that expensive either.
 
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