Another sad article on our ocean's health...

[aslavatortin]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12903570#post12903570 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by flashyleopard
agree with not buying in completely to the ''It will all be dead tomorrow'' propaganda of the environmental movement, but I also agree that **** sapiens are the only species destroying the earth and eliminating the balance of life and death and give and take, that makes and relationship (ecosystem) stable.
Natural extinctions and catastrophic die offs have occurred due to completely natural causes as well, but we are obligated by are touted level of intelligence to minimize our environmental footprint. That doesn't mean trusting politicians to take your money and do good things with it, it means empowering communities and people to make good decisions and stand up for things. There should be recycling programs everywhere, there should be laws that regulate the amount of waste we contribute, there should be voters willing to take the bigger picture into account and not vote based on short-term and empty promises.
There are lots of couch environmentalist, that hem and haw, but do little else, then you have the picket baring, maniacal rebels, that thwart the move towards a greener way of living from being taken seriously.
Money is the root of all evil. No one wants to spend it, people hate change, and we like to wait for problems to be upon us, before we do anything about it. We have known that petroleum was nonrenewable for years, but we continued to build our lives around it and elect politicians that had major investments in oil, and now we cry that is $4.00 a gallon.Now some want to drill up sensitive ecosystems for another band-aid to the problem....could have gotten off of our butts along time ago on this one.
It is hard to point fingers though.We keep our reefs going with lights that consume large amounts of energy....energy that comes from coal,nuclear technology,oil,gas,damming up rivers, but we justify it, b/c it is as relative as the person who says they have no money, but smokes a 2 $5 packs of cigarettes a day.We have to change our priorities and be willing to recycle, drive an economy car when practical, instead of the escalade, boycott things that cause harm to ecosystems of species populations, like dried seahorses and seafans at the boardwalk, no one should be aloud to not recycle basics, like bottles and cans, stop having huge expanses of lawn to water and fertilize,mow, and maintain, an acre or two around your water front mansion is enough.Bottom line is no one wants to be told they can't do something or have to do something, no one wants to do without, and no one wants to pay, and very few want to take responsibility.
I have really rambled on here and wandered around quite a bit, but to sum it up, neither the denial approach, or the dramatic idealism of a bleeding heart environmentalist is the right approach.

I don't think you are as in the happy medium as you think you are. You are still espousing belief that we need the government to step in so that we do the right thing. It's one thing to encourage others and promote the belief that we should all recycle, but it is another thing entirely (ie fascim) to say that we need the government to step in and regulate what I do with an empty can of Diet Coke. If I want to have a huge expanse of lawn to take care (which I do, by the way), that is my right as a human being. I take care of my lawn, I cut it, I buy the gas to go in the mower, I pay for the water I use, I use environmentally sound methods of herbicidal/insecticidal treatment and fertilization; my yard impacts you nor the government in ANY WAY, so don't tell me or anyone else that the government needs to step in and tell me what to do with MY FREAKIN' YARD!!

This is EXACTLY why the environmental wackos need to get shut down; they don't just want to save the world, they want to turn this into a socialist state where the government tells us how many times to shake! They want us all to eat granola, compost our own poop, and live in tree houses!! Who wants a bunch of tree-hugging frog-licking hippies telling us how to live our lives? The post I quoted above illustrates it perfectly; this movement, no matter how benevolent it may seem, is nothing more than a socialist power grab! Next thing you know, they will be rationing water and O2, this is ridiculous!

 

[aslavatortin]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12903671#post12903671 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ludnix
The U.S. is the highest CO2 contributer per capita. China has a lot more people than the U.S., which is why they are leading the national CO2 usage, but it takes almost for 4 people in china to equate the usage of a single American.

So what?!?

 

[tkeracer619]

:lol: :thumbdown:

 

[greenbean36191]

They are likely to loose the title of not being the dominant reef builders? I thought calcerous algae is already the primary reef builder?

No. I think you're getting algal biomass mixed up with reef building. In terms of biomass algae are the dominant (non-bacterial) organisms on reefs. They account for something like 83% of the biomass on a healthy reef. Most of those algae are things like zooxanthellae, endolithic algae, diatoms, and microturfs which contribute absolutely nothing to reef building. Coralline is important for cementing the reefs together, but doesn't provide much actual bulk. Calcareous green algae like Halimeda provide a very small amount of fill, but are nothing in comparison to the bulk of coral skeletons. Corals are and have been the dominant organisms producing the bulk of the CaCO3 since about the time of the dinosaurs.

 

[flashyleopard]

''I don't think you are as in the happy medium as you think you are. You are still espousing belief that we need the government to step in so that we do the right thing. It's one thing to encourage others and promote the belief that we should all recycle, but it is another thing entirely (ie fascim) to say that we need the government to step in and regulate what I do with an empty can of Diet Coke. If I want to have a huge expanse of lawn to take care (which I do, by the way), that is my right as a human being. I take care of my lawn, I cut it, I buy the gas to go in the mower, I pay for the water I use, I use environmentally sound methods of herbicidal/insecticidal treatment and fertilization; my yard impacts you nor the government in ANY WAY, so don't tell me or anyone else that the government needs to step in and tell me what to do with MY FREAKIN' YARD!!

This is EXACTLY why the environmental wackos need to get shut down; they don't just want to save the world, they want to turn this into a socialist state where the government tells us how many times to shake! They want us all to eat granola, compost our own poop, and live in tree houses!! Who wants a bunch of tree-hugging frog-licking hippies telling us how to live our lives? The post I quoted above illustrates it perfectly; this movement, no matter how benevolent it may seem, is nothing more than a socialist power grab! Next thing you know, they will be rationing water and O2, this is ridiculous!''


So you use environmentally sound methods to maintain your lawn.The issue isn't those that use organic methods, it's the ones that water daily, spray chemicals on every dandelion in the sidewalk, and so on...it's wasteful.And while your sound methods can be applauded, it still wouldn't cause you any harm to reduce the amount of water and fuel you consume to maintain such a large amount of turf. We don't need the government to step in, if we could rely on people to use intelligence on their own, but we can't, so we utilize and enforce laws.Would it hurt you to be forced to recycle that coke can? I guess it would not, so why pitch a fit about the proposition of having to do it instead of it being choice? I hate paying taxes, so people who don't want to work can live off of the system, but I have to and overall, it is for the greater good, same with implementing some mandatory change in regards to our wasteful habits.
If we aren't smart enough not to dump our crap where we catch our food, than we DO need the government to step in, though I think the problem is more financial...it's easier and cheaper to dump it, than recycle it or clean it up.Why should we allow people to drive huge, gas swallowing cars, when we have to breath the air they are filling with smog?Why should we allow the automobile manufacturers to enforce the 3k mile rule on oil changes, when modern engines, under normal driving require it only every 5K or 7.5K miles?We are paying for the stuff.
If composting and energy efficient ways of living aren't harmful to you in anyway, as according to you, your lawn care is not to us, than why not do them?The problem with you exercising your ''right'' to live as you please, means you give yourself the right to damage the planet for everyone else and every living thing.I'm not trying to be preachy, but it is people that can't even accept minor adjustments to their lives to serve a global purpose, that thwart everything.Sometimes we have to be a bit less materialistic and selfish about things to make progress and I agree that we should never want the government to fully dictate what we do, but when it comes to pollution and our environmental impact, we are affecting other countries as well....it's not just about Joe Smoe in the Hummer or Mr.Smith with the big, green, in the middle of Nevada lawn.Through our demands we also encourage the slashing and burning of rain forest, the draining of wetlands important to migrating birds, the poisoning of water ways and soils through strip mining, and the over harvesting of many species of sea life...this impacts the entire planet, not just you, with your ''right'' to have a big lawn.
We need every car to get at least 20 miles to the gallon, better public transportation in rural areas, recycling centers and pickups nation wide, strict regulations for the disposal of municipal waste, and all of those are minimally invasive, positive changes the government should get involved with.None of them come close to us living in trees.
I'm not perfect, I have diamond rings, and I am not sure they weren't part of the horrific practices that take place in Africa to mine them, I run my A/C in my car and my window units at 66 in my house to keep me comfortable, but I recycle, I carpool when I can, I try to buy things with minimal packaging, I no longer buy or consume bill fish, b/c of the way they are over fished, I support organic farmers, by buying local organic foods, when I can, I reuse what I can around the house and I compost, I am designing a drought tolerant garden, that requires no fertilizers or pesticides, I drive as fuel efficient a vehicle as I can, and so on.It's not about doing everything, but doing what you can.if I were uber rich and could afford to buy everything organic and build a solar house our of environmentally sound materials, and move to a climate where AWD or 4WD was not needed, get my house re-insulated and fitted with central air and heat, and so on...I would, but I can't, so I do what I can.The point is, I am willing to take a little time, make small sacrifices to leave a smaller impact, if everyone did the same, we wouldn't be perfect, but things would be better. If you have an alternative to the government imposing regulations, please provide a realistic alternative to cleaning up our world and ensuring companies aren't dumping toxic waste into our water, people aren't over fishing, poaching, or dumping oil down storm drains....face it...people overall aren't the brightest when left to their own devices.
__________________

 

[kmf507]

Everyone's wrong. Only I'm right.

 

[flashyleopard]

Everyone's wrong. Only I'm right.


I say the same thing at home

 

[aslavatortin]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12904797#post12904797 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by flashyleopard

So you use environmentally sound methods to maintain your lawn.The issue isn't those that use organic methods, it's the ones that water daily, spray chemicals on every dandelion in the sidewalk, and so on...it's wasteful.And while your sound methods can be applauded, it still wouldn't cause you any harm to reduce the amount of water and fuel you consume to maintain such a large amount of turf. We don't need the government to step in, if we could rely on people to use intelligence on their own, but we can't, so we utilize and enforce laws.Would it hurt you to be forced to recycle that coke can? I guess it would not, so why pitch a fit about the proposition of having to do it instead of it being choice? I hate paying taxes, so people who don't want to work can live off of the system, but I have to and overall, it is for the greater good, same with implementing some mandatory change in regards to our wasteful habits.
If we aren't smart enough not to dump our crap where we catch our food, than we DO need the government to step in, though I think the problem is more financial...it's easier and cheaper to dump it, than recycle it or clean it up.Why should we allow people to drive huge, gas swallowing cars, when we have to breath the air they are filling with smog?Why should we allow the automobile manufacturers to enforce the 3k mile rule on oil changes, when modern engines, under normal driving require it only every 5K or 7.5K miles?We are paying for the stuff.
If composting and energy efficient ways of living aren't harmful to you in anyway, as according to you, your lawn care is not to us, than why not do them?The problem with you exercising your ''right'' to live as you please, means you give yourself the right to damage the planet for everyone else and every living thing.I'm not trying to be preachy, but it is people that can't even accept minor adjustments to their lives to serve a global purpose, that thwart everything.Sometimes we have to be a bit less materialistic and selfish about things to make progress and I agree that we should never want the government to fully dictate what we do, but when it comes to pollution and our environmental impact, we are affecting other countries as well....it's not just about Joe Smoe in the Hummer or Mr.Smith with the big, green, in the middle of Nevada lawn.Through our demands we also encourage the slashing and burning of rain forest, the draining of wetlands important to migrating birds, the poisoning of water ways and soils through strip mining, and the over harvesting of many species of sea life...this impacts the entire planet, not just you, with your ''right'' to have a big lawn.
We need every car to get at least 20 miles to the gallon, better public transportation in rural areas, recycling centers and pickups nation wide, strict regulations for the disposal of municipal waste, and all of those are minimally invasive, positive changes the government should get involved with.None of them come close to us living in trees.
I'm not perfect, I have diamond rings, and I am not sure they weren't part of the horrific practices that take place in Africa to mine them, I run my A/C in my car and my window units at 66 in my house to keep me comfortable, but I recycle, I carpool when I can, I try to buy things with minimal packaging, I no longer buy or consume bill fish, b/c of the way they are over fished, I support organic farmers, by buying local organic foods, when I can, I reuse what I can around the house and I compost, I am designing a drought tolerant garden, that requires no fertilizers or pesticides, I drive as fuel efficient a vehicle as I can, and so on.It's not about doing everything, but doing what you can.if I were uber rich and could afford to buy everything organic and build a solar house our of environmentally sound materials, and move to a climate where AWD or 4WD was not needed, get my house re-insulated and fitted with central air and heat, and so on...I would, but I can't, so I do what I can.The point is, I am willing to take a little time, make small sacrifices to leave a smaller impact, if everyone did the same, we wouldn't be perfect, but things would be better. If you have an alternative to the government imposing regulations, please provide a realistic alternative to cleaning up our world and ensuring companies aren't dumping toxic waste into our water, people aren't over fishing, poaching, or dumping oil down storm drains....face it...people overall aren't the brightest when left to their own devices.
__________________

Case in point, folks; you heard it from the horse's mouth, this is a SOCIALIST MOVEMENT!! Any more government programs, regardless of what they are for, WILL AFFECT ME (and all of you) in the form of more money taken out of my paycheck to fund said programs! The government can do one of two things to fund new programs: print more money or raise taxes. The first directly leads to inflation, which reduces our purchasing power; the second results in less money making it into our bank accounts. Either way, we have LESS for ourselves. You say people aren't the brightest when left to their own devices; that is ludicrous! People do their best when left to their own devices, that is FACT. Give me ONE example of the government doing something bright when left to its own devices, because I can give you endless examples of human ingenuity that entailed ZERO government subsidy (hydro-boosters, for example).

If the government is going to mandate anything, it should be to require anyone wishing to vote to pass a basic economics exam!

 

[schulace123]

aslavatortin let me guess you are some 50 year old guy that lives in the deep south and has a confederate flag is his yard. You sit on you porch all day with a banjo and play redneck songs because your parents stuffed all of the super right wing BS into it. Get of your high horse...

"it should be to require anyone wishing to vote to pass a basic economics exam!" haha wow that's really America for you buddy...wow

the world doesn't just revolve around economics....


I am Fine with the governmental setting up funds and programs...I don't really understand why people who enjoy nature would not support it....its a few dollars out of my pocket to try and save the most precises things in the world, sounds reasonable to me.

 

[aslavatortin]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12905763#post12905763 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by schulace123
aslavatortin let me guess you are some 50 year old guy that lives in the deep south and has a confederate flag is his yard. You sit on you porch all day with a banjo and play redneck songs because your parents stuffed all of the super right wing BS into it. Get of your high horse...

"it should be to require anyone wishing to vote to pass a basic economics exam!" haha wow that's really America for you buddy...wow

the world doesn't just revolve around economics....


I am Fine with the governmental setting up funds and programs...I don't really understand why people who enjoy nature would not support it....its a few dollars out of my pocket to try and save the most precises things in the world, sounds reasonable to me.

Nice try, buddy, I'm 26, I fly a US Flag in my yard, I have a 4-year degree, which I payed for by working 3 jobs. I got married and we had two children while I was busy earning that degree. I am an Afghan War veteran; I enlisted after 9/11. I have lived in 12 states spanning the country from the Upper East Side of Manhattan to Rancho Santa Margarita in Orange County California. I was homeless for a month after my discharge from the Army in late 2002 and in six short years I have accomplished what many people spend a lifetime trying to accomplish. I work a white-collar job for a Fortune 100 Company. I, in my 26 short years, have probably gleaned more life experience than you and three generations of your offspring likely will collectively. If you want to continue making retard assumptions, go ahead, but I guarantee you America is waking up to your BS and this malarchy will not be able to continue for much longer. You are marching up a dangerous road with all of this Marxist BS, it has never worked anywhere in the world and it never will, for one simple reason: Man has an innate desire to advance. In addition to that, there are always the dregs of society who will take advantage of anything they can. You WILL NOT win this argument, throw anything you can at me and I will still make you look stupid using nothing but the bare FACTS of reality.

 

[Mark426]

I don’t doubt the article is true, but it seems that for every study that says one thing there is an equally convincing study by equally qualified "experts" that says just the opposite. Is there such thing as a true scientific study anymore or is everything just pseudo political science? Very sad to me. I just try to sort it out with common sense.

Mark

p.s. Oh...forgot...common sense tells me our BIGGEST problem, the original article right or wrong……are guys like schulace123

 

[schulace123]

haha sorry guys that was one of my buddies joking around....he needed my computer for an excel project.

anyway I apologize....

 

[tkeracer619]

If I was a mod the warnings would have been issued.

Maybe they are just letting it get out of hand so they can pass warnings and go strait to the ban stick. :lol:

:insert shaking head monkey pic:

 

[FishNFun]

Wow, who would have thought that the thought of Santa not coming this year would have caused such an uproar!

The beauty of the global warming argument is that they're always right. The planet is currently in a cooling cycle (thanks to the cycle of nature) but the global warming zealots get to say that it's due to their efforts - 20 years along the timeline of the planet (do the math). When the plant was warming they took a little over a 100 years worth of data and proclaimed they just KNEW that man was to blame. I bet if Al Gore was around during the end of the ice age he would have been lugging his rock drawings around crowing about how those nasty cave fires were to blame.

Now just sit back, relax and enjoy God's plan. No amount of powerpoint slides, socialist media or compost is going to change it.

 

[Mark426]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12906641#post12906641 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by schulace123
haha sorry guys that was one of my buddies joking around....he needed my computer for an excel project.

anyway I apologize....

Oh Gawd....dog eat your homework too?

 

[aslavatortin]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12906641#post12906641 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by schulace123
haha sorry guys that was one of my buddies joking around....he needed my computer for an excel project.

anyway I apologize....

Tell your friend I said, "Thanks for playing" :thumbsup:

 

[marisol]

Thanks for posting the article- Something it didn't mention was the affect of plastic on the marine environment: it breaks up by wave action into particles so tiny, plastic is now a component in seawater, in quantities competing with plankton in some areas. In our Pacific ocean- there is a continent sized slew of plastic waste the size of two Texas': http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/artic...L&type=politics

and on how plastics are mistaken for plankton:
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?...id=a14k5rGoGenk

It's so simple- a plastic bag or styrofoam cup has a 1/2 hour useful life, but a lifetime in the environment. We can avoid getting plastic, re-use the plastics we have, over and over- and keep it from ever reaching the oceans.

While it's true- reefs have adjusted with the rise in the ocean's level- the point of the article, is that instead of new evolution and growth- there's massive decline as a result of many factors- some man-made (fertilizer runnoff- etc.). Rather than downplay our role- isn't it better to do all we can to avoid environmental catastrophe? I want future generations to know the beauty of coral reefs first hand- and the way we are going- they'll only see them in museums and our tanks.

 

[flashyleopard]

Itw as mentioned humans have an innate need for advancement.Isn't it a wonderful advancement to live without degrading the Earth and poisoning our air, waters, and soils. The dangers we pose to our planet aren't just lumped into global warming. If anyone really cannot grasp that there are so many people, that just the human race eating, breathing, and excreteing, is a huge burden on the Earth ( consider bioload as it relates to our aquariums), than it is waste of my time to try and validate anything. The Earth and the human race are both marvelous and have incredible an incredible power to overcom, but why ignore the fact that we are having negative impacts on global health, not just in terms of the environment, but our own, by breathing smog filled air and drinking contaminated water, by growing food in depleted soils, and eating mercury laden fish....we are hurting ourselves by hurting the Earth...it's that simple.

 

[Twz]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12898543#post12898543 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Tang Salad
Wow. There are people who have spent their entire lives studying this. They are called scientists. They disagree with you. Have you studied it long?

I'm sorry, i may be young
but i know enough to not trust most of what people say,
Especially when given with unreasonable "Facts" or nothing at all.
That being said I do believe that mankind is destroying the earth to some extent
But as to global warming, this is a global cycle that is now only been seen due to the lack
of climate records tens of thousands of years ago.

Now, think about this;
what are "scientists" paid for and who pays them?
The government dose! (Well are tax payers do...)
And what dose the government want?
thats right power, how do you get power?
Money.
Now put yourself in there shoes, what's one great way to gain
wealth?
Lets pay these scientists to tell people there destroying the earth (which is a necessity to most people.)
so they will buy all these great "earth saving" Technologies
creating a VERY large market which will lead to a higher National wealth.

Oh, We already know are governments lie to us,
Why believe them now? (Ha, that just made me think of a thesis statement for my paper =D.)

Thank you,
Kyle.

 

[marisol]

Twz, I appreciate your post, and as a young person, it's your job to question everything. I will say this- there are a lot more scientists on the side of petroleum, plastics, chemical companies, who do not want their fertilizers, petroleum companies, to go out of business. The government does not profit from promoting the health of the reefs. The fertilizer run-off from corn production- who profits from that? Fertilizer/chemical companies- not the government. We- it will be at our expense- the public - to clean up after these polluters.

No private company- Exxon, Lilly, Edison, will protect the reefs- only joe-public- in threads like this, in poorly funded research projects and initiatives the Environmental Protection Agency tries to promote: http://www.epa.gov/OWOW/oceans/coral/#solutions Rather than knock the government's efforts- look at who has a lot to gain from breaking environmental laws, and who are fighting the regulations that protect our oceans.