Another ship stuck trying to prove lies...

[Reel North]

When the government begins reaching into my pocket, and hires guys to fly around on 747 to preach at me, I start to tune it out. I try to pollute the least I can, grow some food, and minimize my personal footprint on the planet.

When world leaders preach about climate change, and blather on about taxes, and fees, and carbon credits, you know someone is getting rich and it isn't you.

The UN climate people have clearly said that this is about redistribution of wealth, and has nothing to do with climate science.

When the largest polluters get a 20 year free pass to continue to build coal plants, and rape and pillage their lands and pollute as much as they want in the name of "fairness", how serious is this problem really.

If we are destroying the planet at the rate they tell us we are, then why not clamp down hard on India, China, Russia etc etc?

Answer that one, simple question. Why are they giving the largest polluters on earth a free pass......

 

[Reef Frog]

Sea level rise is real.

Ocean acidification is real and the link to CO2 is real and proven. As reefers, we fully understand what that does to a coral reef. We all know what elevated CO2 in out tanks do to pH.

It is hotter globally then it has been 200, 100, 50 years ago. Fact.

WHERE THINGS COMPLICATED:
Sophisticated climate modeling requires super computers, incredibly sophisticated software, many millenia of data which we don't have and a huge array of observation technologies. All of these things are really only in their infancy.

But enormous human hubris on the part of many says we've got it all figured out now...and CO2 is fully to blame...end of story...doubters shut your pie holes dang it! Heck science can't decide if coffee is good or bad for us. CO2 may very well be the main or a major driver but we unlikely have all the data there is on the subject, and maybe we never will. An open and skeptical mind must be maintained before you let our dysfunctional government go wild on the issue. So much is unknown. During the Middle Ages a mini ice age has occurred. We know the ice age reached its peak 12,000 years ago and it's been getting warmer ever since. We barely understand ocean currents, their histories and how they change. Astrological causes are often not factored in properly. There's a lot more to learn.

I'm working from memory here. But the USA has done a fantastic job in reducing overall energy use AND CO2 emissions during the last 25 years. Our CO2 emissions are now at a 1993 level. But our economic output has doubled or tripled and we've added somewhere around 40 million additional people to the population, at least the ones we can count.

That's fantastic and we should give ourselves credit for that. You rarely hear about it in the news media or political circles. Using less energy benefits the consumer, businesses (except big oil), national security, and the environment. Many really rotten countries have lots of oil and I'm OK with their corrupt rulers get a nice haircut.

The planet is indeed over populated and overall population seems to be accelerating with no end in sight. This is likely to lead to all kinds of unsolvable problems. This is just an opinion of course. But the developing world is going to develop no matter what - and they'll undoubtably do it inefficiently and with precious little regard for environment issues much less CO2 control.

So keep an open mind, but in the end....yea we're probably screwed in the long term. We'll know more in a 100 years or so but in the mean time hope for the best!

 

[skanderson]

you forgot to mention that it is cooler than it was 1000 years ago. funny how that always gets left off the list.

 

[Alexraptor]

I call total BS on the notion that the planet is over populated.
Our planet would be more than capable of sustaining us several times over if it and it's resources were properly managed and if people just weren't so damn greedy.

 

[HippieSmell]

you forgot to mention that it is cooler than it was 1000 years ago. funny how that always gets left off the list.

It wasn't warmer 1000 years ago. I'm not trying to be terse or flippant, but it wasn't globally warmer. There was a warming period, but we've surpassed it.

 

[alton]

I call total BS on the notion that the planet is over populated.
Our planet would be more than capable of sustaining us several times over if it and it's resources were properly managed and if people just weren't so damn greedy.

You need to come to Texas or California. Texas alone has grown by 2 million people in 4 years. Maybe if we raised our taxes the newcomers would go back home?

 

[CHSUB]

it's so hot today in Miami you could fry a egg on the street.....must be global warming!!!!

 

[Reef Frog]

I call total BS on the notion that the planet is over populated.
Our planet would be more than capable of sustaining us several times over if it and it's resources were properly managed and if people just weren't so damn greedy.

Well, we will know more in a few hundred years!

The problems with these theories are:

-Greed is part of the human condition. It's hard baked into the human animal. And it always will be.

-Properly managed. Ok. That seems possible in theory perhaps. What does that really mean? A mandate from a government bureaucracy managing the details of living for 30 billion people in 2150? Humanity seems awfully poor at managing large scale things beyond short term goals. How would that change?

How would that be done? We know all natural ecosystems have a maximum carrying carrying capacity. Eventually any group of technical miracles that support an extreme population is likely to falter or fail at some point with disastrous results. Just opinion. Hard to impossible to know for sure.

 

[lokmar]

The man made warming hoaxologists have been making up the data and silencing dissenters for 2 decades now. Anytime the lies are revealed, they get ignored and covered by new lies. All of this is to further the cause of separating us from our money. To that end, these people are now talking about making the denial of the global warming hoax a crime. Businesses will be bullied via gov. regulations into getting on the bandwagon. Anytime a continent has record cold, its ignored, and anytime Arizona has 120 deg. temps, its paraded around as proof positive that we're all gonna die. BTW, their hoaxologist forefathers swore that the earth was gonna be in another ice age back in the 70's. They themselves said we had just a few years before disaster back in the early 2000's. They lie....still.

 

[HippieSmell]

The man made warming hoaxologists have been making up the data and silencing dissenters for 2 decades now. Anytime the lies are revealed, they get ignored and covered by new lies. All of this is to further the cause of separating us from our money. To that end, these people are now talking about making the denial of the global warming hoax a crime. Businesses will be bullied via gov. regulations into getting on the bandwagon. Anytime a continent has record cold, its ignored, and anytime Arizona has 120 deg. temps, its paraded around as proof positive that we're all gonna die. BTW, their hoaxologist forefathers swore that the earth was gonna be in another ice age back in the 70's. They themselves said we had just a few years before disaster back in the early 2000's. They lie....still.

Literally nothing you just said is completely true. In fact, most is totally false.

 

[Potatohead]

Literally nothing you just said is completely true. In fact, most is totally false.

Can't tell that to a crazy person

 

[alton]

Actually you have to go back to four decades of contraversy
http://www.populartechnology.net/2013/02/the-1970s-global-cooling-alarmism.html
And look at all the references
Global Freezing
Global Warming
Global Climate Change
Not sure about what it will be called next?
We all know as you add more people you add more of everything
Since the ice age the earth has been warming.
Remember Exxon Valdize
Green Peace and how they got boats that ran off of Fuel oil to circle other tankers to protest oil transportation?
The biggest issue with claiming global warming is the spokes people that have been chosen are "Do as I say, not as I do!
http://www.snopes.com/politics/business/gorehome.asp

 

[ThRoewer]

I call total BS on the notion that the planet is over populated.
Our planet would be more than capable of sustaining us several times over if it and it's resources were properly managed and if people just weren't so damn greedy.

Well, I think you have to get outside of the thinly populated Sweden once in a while to see what high population density looks like. :debi:
I suggest India, China, Japan, or a visit to Tokyo or Mexico City, and then let's talk again.
The city of Tokyo alone has already 1.4 times the population of all of Sweden.
If you count the entire Tokyo-Yokohama region it's 4 times. And that is just one city complex.

If you want to live like an ant in an anthill, eat just as much cardboard tasting dry-food as needed to sustain you, drink water that was reclaimed from your excrement, and live in concentration camp style barracks with no privacy or personal space, you may be able to add a few more billions.
Oh, and hope you have a stuffy nose as there will be no water to waste for washing.
I suggest to watch Soylent Green to get a rather positive prediction of how it may look like.

If you want to live in a decent house, eat nice and healthy meals, drive a car, have an intact environment and have all the other amenities we so got accustomed to, then one billion is already stretching the planet's resources.

When I was born there were about 3.5 billion humans on this planet.
Now, 50 years later there are 7.4 billion, more than twice as much. And the projections predict 8.5 billion by 2030.

Well, the good news is that nature is very good at finding countermeasures, and Human greed and stupidity is likely going to help along tremendously.

Sometimes I wish I could live long enough a give you a "told you so" when the sh** hits the fan, but it may be better to kick the bucket before it all goes south :beer:

 

[ThRoewer]

... Since the ice age the earth has been warming. ...

Well, we are actually in a warm period between two ice-ages.

It's not the warming on itself that is alarming, but the rate at which it occurs. And the acceleration of warming in the last century is clearly coincident in timing and rate to human activity. It really doesn't matter if it is CO2, deforestation, pollution or just simply overpopulation - it clearly points to human activity as the cause.

Also, the rapidly warming climate will not simply cause the temperatures to raise, but could actually bring on the next ice age sooner by disrupting the oceanic heat transport.

Whatever the outcome for nature will be, it will be most detrimental to human societies.

 

[Bent]

I have to throw into this discussion.

This argument drives me a little nuts, at least in the "real world". Its a little different discussing it here, I tend to think the community here has a little more sense and education than most of the rest of the population.

In my opinion, I have no problem being a good custodian and a responsible human being, cleaning up after myself and such. But heres my issue with this and other arguments. You cant win and your always up against some kind of critical response from some fringe groups.

Case and point.

I hunt for much of our meat at home and we don't get a lot of grocery store meat. This leads to a need for conservation, responsible gun ownership, butchering skills, decreasing your environmental impact by not giving money to large meat companies, etc. Then you try to have a discussion about these things with fringe lunatics and people call you insensitive, cruel, etc.

Then you tell people that you store drinking water, stock up food for emergencies, and your suddenly a "prepper" looney toon.

You oppose gun laws and people say "why do you need guns! Leave the policing to the police!" Then you tell them you support the police, then they say "screw the police, they abuse their power and are racist scum!"


Anyway, my point is that its very difficult these days to be a normal person with common sense. I don't want to crap on the environment any more than I want to dump trash in my living room and not clean it up, but at the same time I don't think making a bunch of legislation that will kill peoples jobs and put more people in poverty is the best answer either.

Im not denying a shift in climate, nor am I going to sit here and say that I have no impact on the environment when I could easily over hunt my property to the point that Ill never be able to harvest meat off of it again. I could dump trash in my garden and not be able to harvest anything again.

I don't know when everything became so polarized and it frustrates me to no end.

 

[sde1500]

I have to throw into this discussion.

This argument drives me a little nuts, at least in the "real world". Its a little different discussing it here, I tend to think the community here has a little more sense and education than most of the rest of the population.

In my opinion, I have no problem being a good custodian and a responsible human being, cleaning up after myself and such. But heres my issue with this and other arguments. You cant win and your always up against some kind of critical response from some fringe groups.

Case and point.

I hunt for much of our meat at home and we don't get a lot of grocery store meat. This leads to a need for conservation, responsible gun ownership, butchering skills, decreasing your environmental impact by not giving money to large meat companies, etc. Then you try to have a discussion about these things with fringe lunatics and people call you insensitive, cruel, etc.

Then you tell people that you store drinking water, stock up food for emergencies, and your suddenly a "prepper" looney toon.

You oppose gun laws and people say "why do you need guns! Leave the policing to the police!" Then you tell them you support the police, then they say "screw the police, they abuse their power and are racist scum!"


Anyway, my point is that its very difficult these days to be a normal person with common sense. I don't want to crap on the environment any more than I want to dump trash in my living room and not clean it up, but at the same time I don't think making a bunch of legislation that will kill peoples jobs and put more people in poverty is the best answer either.

Im not denying a shift in climate, nor am I going to sit here and say that I have no impact on the environment when I could easily over hunt my property to the point that Ill never be able to harvest meat off of it again. I could dump trash in my garden and not be able to harvest anything again.

I don't know when everything became so polarized and it frustrates me to no end.

I'd agree with you but I don't want to be associated with some gun toting, animal killing, disaster prepping nut case. :clown:

 

[Butch01]

Everyone does to a certain degree but no one believes that this is a result of the earth since the industrial revolution began... unless your trying to sell others "carbon credits"

If your non-sentence means what it appears to mean, please don't presume to speak others on this. Man's pumping of CO2 into the atmosphere in the past 150 years or so is directly responsible for the current incredibly rapid increase in atmospheric CO2 concentration, rising global temperatures, rising sea levels, melting glaciers, and the myriad other downstream effects we're starting to see.

I do science for a living, and whether you choose to believe it or not, it *is* happening. I'm just not willing to bet that you're smarter or better informed than the 99.9+% of the world's climate and other physical scientists who have proven that it's manmade. Maybe when you're starving because we can't grow enough food to feed ourselves, and NYC, Miami, and LA are under water you'll believe it.

And for the record, weather and climate are not the same thing. A snowstorm in June doesn't mean that runaway global climate change isn't real or isn't happening.

 

[alton]

If your non-sentence means what it appears to mean, please don't presume to speak others on this. Man's pumping of CO2 into the atmosphere in the past 150 years or so is directly responsible for the current incredibly rapid increase in atmospheric CO2 concentration, rising global temperatures, rising sea levels, melting glaciers, and the myriad other downstream effects we're starting to see.

I do science for a living, and whether you choose to believe it or not, it *is* happening. I'm just not willing to bet that you're smarter or better informed than the 99.9+% of the world's climate and other physical scientists who have proven that it's manmade. Maybe when you're starving because we can't grow enough food to feed ourselves, and NYC, Miami, and LA are under water you'll believe it.

And for the record, weather and climate are not the same thing. A snowstorm in June doesn't mean that runaway global climate change isn't real or isn't happening.

Three questions
Listening to you it sounds like over population is causing our issues?
Since C02 is heavier than air how does it get in our atmosphere?
If C02 is so bad why is it a non regulated gas?

 

[PIPSTER]

I do science for a living.

B.S.



:hammer:

 

[HippieSmell]

Three questions
Listening to you it sounds like over population is causing our issues?
Since C02 is heavier than air how does it get in our atmosphere?
If C02 is so bad why is it a non regulated gas?

Are these serious questions?