Another ship stuck trying to prove lies...

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I don't know when everything became so polarized and it frustrates me to no end.

Amen to that.

When in doubt I would rather err on the side of caution as once the damage is done it can't be undone.
Cutting CO2 emissions doesn't harm the economy but rather creates new opportunities for new businesses (see Denmark's and Germany's wind power industries). It may harm some old businesses that refuse to adapt, but those may fail sooner or later anyway.
Life is all about change and those who refuse to adapt will sooner or later go the way of the dodo.

As for guns, I don't mind hunting rifles and pistols for the coup de grâce. Those are legal with a permit even in countries with strict gun control like Germany. Even pistols for defending your home are OK with me (though those are usually a greater threat to the owner and his/her family than a potential intruder).
What I find concerning are people who hoard arsenals of military grade assault rifles, machine guns and the like for "self protection" (true collectors excluded) - against whom they want to protect themselves?
 
Three questions
Listening to you it sounds like over population is causing our issues?
Since C02 is heavier than air how does it get in our atmosphere?
If C02 is so bad why is it a non regulated gas?

1. precisely! Overpopulation is the root cause of nearly all human related/caused issues.

2. Atmospheric circulation (wind), Thermodynamic, kinetics of gases, Brownian motion,... Gas molecules bounce around at crazy speeds at normal temperatures - that alone would do the mixing just fine.

3. regulation always lags. Also, it's the dosage that creates the danger, not the presence in general. And plant life needs a certain minimum of it to survive. It's about limiting preventable excess emissions - otherwise you would have to outlaw breathing altogether.
 
1. precisely! Overpopulation is the root cause of nearly all human related/caused issues.

2. Atmospheric circulation (wind), Thermodynamic, kinetics of gases, Brownian motion,... Gas molecules bounce around at crazy speeds at normal temperatures - that alone would do the mixing just fine.

3. regulation always lags. Also, it's the dosage that creates the danger, not the presence in general. And plant life needs a certain minimum of it to survive. It's about limiting preventable excess emissions - otherwise you would have to outlaw breathing altogether.

Thanks do you have a link to a study that list the amount of CO2 that is not used up by plants and makes it into our atmosphere? Many electrical companies still use C02 to blow in jetlines. Our company alone uses 1,000's of pounds
I believe as humans we are doing a crappy job in protecting the earth! And the worst part our government leads the way in pollution.
 
The amount of CO2 plants (and corals) bind depends on the amount of plants (and corals) present.
An actually better way to see this may be the amount of oxygen in the atmosphere. Since we are busy cutting down the rain forests on top of burning fossil fuels the atmospheric oxygen levels are dropping faster than the CO2 levels rise: about 4 ppm per year (http://cdiac.ornl.gov/trends/oxygen/modern_records.html)

If your company actually uses CO2, it is likely just taken from the air by cooling and compression or more commonly as a byproduct of other industrial processes. I guess they use CO2 because it is cheaper than N2: http://www.cryobrain.com/nitrocarbon
 
BTW: burning fossil fuels like there is no tomorrow is quite stupid as they are very precious resources that are not easily replaced. Mankind is currently behaving like a poor sucker who won the lottery and then wastes it all away in no time.
 
Amen to that.

When in doubt I would rather err on the side of caution as once the damage is done it can't be undone.
Cutting CO2 emissions doesn't harm the economy but rather creates new opportunities for new businesses (see Denmark's and Germany's wind power industries). It may harm some old businesses that refuse to adapt, but those may fail sooner or later anyway.
Life is all about change and those who refuse to adapt will sooner or later go the way of the dodo.

As for guns, I don't mind hunting rifles and pistols for the coup de grâce. Those are legal with a permit even in countries with strict gun control like Germany. Even pistols for defending your home are OK with me (though those are usually a greater threat to the owner and his/her family than a potential intruder).
What I find concerning are people who hoard arsenals of military grade assault rifles, machine guns and the like for "self protection" (true collectors excluded) - against whom they want to protect themselves?

Without getting all "gun nerd" on ya, I do find that I often have this discussion with non gun nerds and my next statement usually shocks them.

I don't support an "assault weapons" ban...but I would support a hand gun ban would one come up.

The reason is, If you go by the numbers, violent crimes are committed by handguns by a large, large margin. More people were actually killed by hammers in 2015 than by "assault rifles".

I keep putting assault rifle in quotes because what is sold to common people at gun shops are not assault rifles at all. They are merely semi-automatic rifles that look like their military counterparts. Calling an AR-15 and a M16 both assault rifles is like calling a Siberian husky and a Timber wolf both Wolves. Here is a cool concise read outlining the difference:
http://tribunist.com/news/when-you-hear-someone-call-an-ar-15-an-assault-rifle-show-them-this/

I'm also ok with high capacity mag bans. Plenty of research has shown that proper practice and training can enable someone to put Rounds down range just as fast with three, ten round magazines as someone untrained with a single 30 round magazine. I've done the drills multiple times and not only am I just as fast with the ten rounders, I'm actually more accurate. A properly trained person can unload and reload their rifle in less than a second.

Furthermore, I think we need to really up the ante with weapons violations punishments. Depending on the severity, I'd be ok with cutting someone's hands off. After all, you can't shoot a gun with no hands.

As for the "what are they protecting themselves from" question, the answer is "the government". The second amendment is the second amendment for a reason. It's that important, otherwise it would be the 12 or 13th. It's literally the second thing they thought of out of all the things they needed to cover. Without a way to encite fear into the government of the citizens being able to defend themselves adequately from oppression, the government has no reason not to exert control over their citizens. No, a rifle or handgun isn't going to stop a tank, but a few hundred of them will, and plenty of bigger weapons will be lying on the ground if something like this happens, but we have to have a way to get to that point first. Often the threat of force is enough to keep a balance. What did teddy Roosevelt say? "Speak softly and carry a big stick?" Take that stick away, and your leverage is gone. The second amendment is one of the reasons we have the freedoms we have today, not in spite of it. However, in contrast to that, I will say that buying a Swim cap and shaving you body doesn't make you Michael Phelps. You have to practice and log range time. Responsible gun ownership means not only keeping your weapons out of everyone's hands but your own at all times, but also ensuring you know what the heck your doing with it. That's my biggest beef with most of the gun owners in the country these days, most of them couldn't fight their way out of a wet paper bag and I'm supposed to be OK with these people carrying in public? No thanks.


Anyway, off my soapbox, and back on topic.

Yes, cutting co2 emissions does indeed harm the economy. Just look at the coal miners in WV that are currently unemployed for an example. These people need work. WV has a really terrible economy now directly due to the clean air act and legislation that has put people out of work. The less people that draw a paycheck, the less income tax the government collects. This state went from a massive tax surplus to a huge deficit in the last 8 years simply from legislation that has shut down coal mines and related businesses.

I'm totally fine with cleaner forms of energy, but These new resources and jobs need to be in place before you phase out the old ones. Otherwise you cut the governmental cash flow and put more people on government assistance. You can't just throw people in poverty like that and say "good luck" (Not you specifically, that's not what I mean).

So anyways, this reply became way more wordy than I intended. I'm all for being a good custodian of the environment, but we need to think about the human impact of this stuff first and the environmental impact second. Get people transitioned to these new jobs instead of pulling the rug out and telling them to wait for a new pie in the sky job opportunity that may or may not come in the next 5-10 years. In the same vein we also need to start make college education more affordable and stop the university extortion of the public, but that's a whole new topic.

Good talk guys!
 
If your non-sentence means what it appears to mean, please don't presume to speak others on this. Man's pumping of CO2 into the atmosphere in the past 150 years or so is directly responsible for the current incredibly rapid increase in atmospheric CO2 concentration, rising global temperatures, rising sea levels, melting glaciers, and the myriad other downstream effects we're starting to see.

I do science for a living, and whether you choose to believe it or not, it *is* happening. I'm just not willing to bet that you're smarter or better informed than the 99.9+% of the world's climate and other physical scientists who have proven that it's manmade. Maybe when you're starving because we can't grow enough food to feed ourselves, and NYC, Miami, and LA are under water you'll believe it.

And for the record, weather and climate are not the same thing. A snowstorm in June doesn't mean that runaway global climate change isn't real or isn't happening.

If you do science for a living, and you are able to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that man made climate change exists and the rest of the scientific community can't, then you must have this published somewhere.

There is plenty of evidence to suggest that it exists, and we should operate on that current research, I'm not trying to downplay it. But to sit here and say that it's "proven" is simply not true. It isn't, and hasn't been 100% proven to my knowledge, yet. :love1:
 
Thanks do you have a link to a study that list the amount of CO2 that is not used up by plants and makes it into our atmosphere? Many electrical companies still use C02 to blow in jetlines. Our company alone uses 1,000's of pounds
I believe as humans we are doing a crappy job in protecting the earth! And the worst part our government leads the way in pollution.
I don't have a link, but there are global carbon budget studies that show what systems absorb what. It isn't a debated topic, I assure you. The reason they can test where fossil emissions end up is because the carbon emmitted by the burning of fossil fuels is a different ratio of c12 to c13 than other sources.
 
Yes, cutting co2 emissions does indeed harm the economy. Just look at the coal miners in WV that are currently unemployed for an example. These people need work. WV has a really terrible economy now directly due to the clean air act and legislation that has put people out of work. The less people that draw a paycheck, the less income tax the government collects. This state went from a massive tax surplus to a huge deficit in the last 8 years simply from legislation that has shut down coal mines and related businesses.

I'm totally fine with cleaner forms of energy, but These new resources and jobs need to be in place before you phase out the old ones. Otherwise you cut the governmental cash flow and put more people on government assistance. You can't just throw people in poverty like that and say "good luck" (Not you specifically, that's not what I mean).
I feel bad for anyone that loses a job, but if mountain top coal mining is ended, I can't say that's a bad thing.

The problem with clean energy jobs is that fossil fuels are cheap. Either fossil fuels are made more expensive through regulation so that renewables can compete, or the government develops cheaper renewables through incentives or direct research. It's government regulation or government spending, both of which are antithesis to certain political groups.
 
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Yes, cutting co2 emissions does indeed harm the economy. Just look at the coal miners in WV that are currently unemployed for an example. These people need work. WV has a really terrible economy now directly due to the clean air act and legislation that has put people out of work. The less people that draw a paycheck, the less income tax the government collects. This state went from a massive tax surplus to a huge deficit in the last 8 years simply from legislation that has shut down coal mines and related businesses. ...

Well, coal mining hasn't been a safe job since ships and trains were switched over to oil. It is largely a dying industry, in the developed world anyway, and it would still be even without cutting carbon emissions. Just look what happened to British and German mines - pretty much all closed for a long time, and not due to carbon emission reduction, but simply because of cost (safe mines can't compete with the way the dig it up in China) and because coal burning was too dirty and the demand went down when cleaner and more convenient alternatives became available.
Coal burning is dirty in so many ways that nobody wants it in their neighborhood if there are cleaner energies like natural gas.
Really, would you want to die young from coal smog and dust just so some people can hang on to their outdated jobs - I don't.

Also, any region that just bets on just one industry without having enough diversification will encounter such downturns. It's not just the laws of economics but also the laws of evolution.

Of course you could also go the British way where they had still stokers on diesel and electric trains long after the era of steam engines had ended - just so they had jobs (subsidized by the public of course).
 
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The problem with clean energy jobs is that fossil fuels are cheap. ...

Actually, fossil fuels are not cheap if you take away subsidies, tax breaks and add in the damages done to the environment (excluding CO2) the taxpayer had to cover.
Once going, renewable energy sources can be competitive or even cheaper.
 
Actually, fossil fuels are not cheap if you take away subsidies, tax breaks and add in the damages done to the environment (excluding CO2) the taxpayer had to cover.
Once going, renewable energy sources can be competitive or even cheaper.
That isn't factored in for people at the pump, though. You are correct, however. Not to mention the cost associated with securing the free flow of fossil fuels around the globe. And the dollar peg.
 
That isn't factored in for people at the pump, though. You are correct, however. Not to mention the cost associated with securing the free flow of fossil fuels around the globe. And the dollar peg.

Yeah:

Top_ten_military_expenditures_in_US%24_Bn._in_2014%2C_according_to_the_International_Institute_for_Strategic_Studies.PNG


Remind me please who the US is at war with right now?

Not that I'm questioning the need to defend the country, but it seems it comes at a way too high bill. Half of that budget should be sufficient to keep all potential enemies at bay. To me it looks like someone is really sucking the US taxpayers dry (not necessarily the military itself but rather it's suppliers).

I guess Eisenhower was spot on with his warning about the military industrial complex:

"A vital element in keeping the peace is our military establishment. Our arms must be mighty, ready for instant action, so that no potential aggressor may be tempted to risk his own destruction...

This conjunction of an immense military establishment and a large arms industry is new in the American experience. The total influence "” economic, political, even spiritual "” is felt in every city, every statehouse, every office of the federal government. We recognize the imperative need for this development. Yet we must not fail to comprehend its grave implications. Our toil, resources and livelihood are all involved; so is the very structure of our society. In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military"“industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists, and will persist. We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals so that security and liberty may prosper together.
"


If only half of that overblown military budget would be spend on education and other more pressing needs, the US and it's population would be in a much better shape.
 
Thanks for the info, and as for our military we have to stop policing the World and just worry about #1
 
Bent don't mess with my SR45! I love my deer sausage and hamburger along with shooting skeet and targets. Benefits of living in a rural area
 
Bent don't mess with my SR45! I love my deer sausage and hamburger along with shooting skeet and targets. Benefits of living in a rural area

I don't intend to, or want to. I have about 10 handguns myself. I was just making a point.

But yes I also agree that it's time for the America to adopt the turtle technique.

Great civilized discussion guys!
 
not that hot today in Miami, so maybe there is no global warming after all!!!!
 
But yes I also agree that it's time for the America to adopt the turtle technique.

Great civilized discussion guys!
I honestly don't think that's an option any more. The power vacuum would probably create more wars, as hard as that is to believe. I also think the dollar would collapse because of it. It's a globalized world and we either continue to lead and make it more globalized, or we pull back and watch it restructure, perhaps painfully.
 
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But yes I also agree that it's time for the America to adopt the turtle technique.
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HELL NO!!!!

The last time America did that it quite literally caused WWII.

This time there would likely be no recovery. China and Russia are just waiting for the US to give them an opening.

Putin want's to restore Russia to what the Soviet empire was in size and influence. An America that stops being watchful or supportive to its NATO allies is just what he hopes for - or why do you think Putin is trying to influence the US elections.

Same goes for China. As soon as the US would show weakness in East Asia they would start creating facts (they already started that with their island building). The next would likely be an annexation of Taiwan. And the Chinese also feel that they still have unfinished business with Japan.

The US withdrawing is really not an option as long as there is no higher authority could take over governing the world. It would need to be a new fully democratic UN without veto powers and an independent military. Though I don't think that is something to come anytime soon.

The issue with the US military budget is that the taxpayers not get what they pay for. The equipment costs are just ridiculously high and the effectiveness is rather questionable.
 
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