Another...your tank can be dangerous thread.
- Thread starter SeanT
- Start date
jeremism30
Premium Member
And I thought you where joking when you told me 2 days ago about being in the hospital and on meds.
onthefly
Getting back into it!
The lab probably could not culture anything from the site because there was nothing there! Your description (and pics) of the thumb looks like an immune response. Immunologists refer to it as a "cytokine storm". Much like those nasty pics of Strep B, the bloody nasty mess is not the bacteria, or a poison produced by the bacteria, but a host immune response (interferons, tumor necrosis factor, interleukins) to the pathogen/toxin.
Most labs are going to culture a potential infectious agent on blood agar plates.....which are so nutrient rich anything able to grow in your thumb would have grown on the plates.
I also agree with Thunnus, that the water is not the factor, but a brush with something inside the tank is. I've read that post about the dog and it was unclear whether the dog licked the zoo's or not, or got some of the zoo slime. And the guy who got it in his eye....well, the eye is a wonderful route for infection that most people overlook!!!!
Interestingly, The marine Vibrio and Mycobacterium sp. are close cousins to etiological agents of Colera and TB.
Very glad to see you still have the thumb!!!
Most labs are going to culture a potential infectious agent on blood agar plates.....which are so nutrient rich anything able to grow in your thumb would have grown on the plates.
I also agree with Thunnus, that the water is not the factor, but a brush with something inside the tank is. I've read that post about the dog and it was unclear whether the dog licked the zoo's or not, or got some of the zoo slime. And the guy who got it in his eye....well, the eye is a wonderful route for infection that most people overlook!!!!
Interestingly, The marine Vibrio and Mycobacterium sp. are close cousins to etiological agents of Colera and TB.
Very glad to see you still have the thumb!!!
AMidnightSoul
New member
Thanks for sharing your story. It absolutely reminds one to be careful. Several times when talking about saltwater toxins I heard and read people's comments regarding them not being allergic to things like other people are, but I think it's important for people to distinguish between an allergic reaction to something and being poisoned by something or infected with certain bacteria. There are poisons and bacteria that the human body can NOT fight off and it has nothing to do with how supsectible you are to various things. Some of the poisons and bacteria we can't fight off are contained in our tanks and I think it's important to remember that. I'm glad you posted this because everyone who messes with saltwater critters should be educated about things that could happen.
3_high_low
Premium Member
Thunnus said:
Oh ya? Here you go, Thunnus.
"However, "fish keeper's disease" is not a focal infection of the skin. A case of mycobacteria infection contacted from mouth syphoning water from a fish tank has been reported. It concerned an individual who experienced a throat infection that wouldn't get better, and was eventually diagnosed as fishtank granuloma (PFK Jan. 1998). So next time you do a water change and take a big suck on the end of the syphon hose - just think of this article."
http://members.optushome.com.au/chelmon/Myco.htm
There's plenty of stuff in our aquariums that can cause illness or death. I don't want ppl to be paranoid, just careful and aware.
http://www.pulsus.com/Infdis/14_05/stan_ed.htm
onthefly,
You'd know better than I. Doesn't it take weeks to culture most micobacteria? Perhaps that is why they missed it.
Sean, did they treat you with any meds other than rocephin?
Thunnus
Premium Member
I stand corrected on that. Keeping aquariums is still a heck of alot safer than just about anything that we do in our day to day lives. All that you guys keeping this thread and others like it permanently as the first thread does is promote completely uneccessary fear. There are alot better things that new people to the hobby and RC should see when they log on. Why dont you keep a thread about properly cycling tanks permanantly up front? It would be more useful information.
Thunnus said:
This information has the potential of saving lives Thunnus. I agree that hair algae from a cycle gone bad is a pressing issue but hardly in the same league. The point of this thread is not to spread fear, but rather inform folks of things that they need to be aware of.
99% of folks on this board will never have a problem like this. For that other 1% being able to correlate what is happening to them because of this thread, and getting proper medical attention could be significant.
I find your disregard for the safety of the folks on this board somewhat unsettling. We, collectively, get the point that you're trying to make, we just don't agree with it.
3_high_low
Premium Member
Thunnus, what Doug said
.
...and you're breaking my heart, it was my suggestion to make this thread a sticky. Please cut me some slack
Also, Reef Central has an entire forum for people that are New to the Hobby. I cruise over there a lot. Check it out some time.
. ...and you're breaking my heart, it was my suggestion to make this thread a sticky. Please cut me some slack
Also, Reef Central has an entire forum for people that are New to the Hobby. I cruise over there a lot. Check it out some time.
Thunnus
Premium Member
I understand your point very well. I am not trying to be at all difficult or debate. I know that bad things can happen to us in a living environment like a reef. I know that your intentions are good with this thread being a sticky. Most of us keep a reef as a break from the stresses of life. I just dont like threads like this that create stress and fear. The fact is, the chances are better that we will get zapped by all the electrical crap in our tanks than being effected by the microscopic fauna of our systems. But I will get off of my soap box. My point is dont be paranoid and enjoy your tanks while respecting the environment that you have created. But most importantly, DONT EAT ZOOS! 
Just out of interest regarding the vibrio:
http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/dbmd/diseaseinfo/vibrioparahaemolyticus_g.htm
Spleen
http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/dbmd/diseaseinfo/vibrioparahaemolyticus_g.htm
Spleen
Found some info on WebMB about Sean's Anti-Biotics.
http://my.webmd.com/hw/drug_data/d00052a1?lastselectedguid={5fe84e90-bc77-4056-a91c-9531713ca348}
http://my.webmd.com/hw/drug_data/d00052a1?lastselectedguid={5fe84e90-bc77-4056-a91c-9531713ca348}
onthefly
Getting back into it!
So much to catch up on.....
Mps - there was obviously a breach of the skin....whether a infection occured, or a toxin was introduced by nematocyst or rubbing against something who knows. That being said, it's almost impossible to say if the necrosis was caused by the agent itself, a toxin released by the agent, or just the immune response gone crazy. The bloody mess is the result of the body response to "whatever".
3 high low - depends on the species! Obviously, something (if bacterial) was able to infect and induce a response in his thumb in a very short period of time. Mycobacterium tuberculum (TB) grow like a wild fire and is very infectious.....the marine species in SW might grow slow, but if you get a superbug (genetic mutation which allows it to grow quickly at higher temps) it could be hrs instead of weeks. Example, normal strep A and B live on the surfaces of all our bodies.....what causes Strep B to go from looking like a pimple at first sign and leaving a grapefruit sized bloody crater 8 hrs later is a genetic mutation.
Bottomline - there are bad things all around us at all times.....just be careful and exersize whatever precautions you deem necessary.......I personally, don't wear gloves and have taken more than one mouthful trying to establish a siphon......never mind the gallons of SW I've ingested while surfing,
Mps - there was obviously a breach of the skin....whether a infection occured, or a toxin was introduced by nematocyst or rubbing against something who knows. That being said, it's almost impossible to say if the necrosis was caused by the agent itself, a toxin released by the agent, or just the immune response gone crazy. The bloody mess is the result of the body response to "whatever".
3 high low - depends on the species! Obviously, something (if bacterial) was able to infect and induce a response in his thumb in a very short period of time. Mycobacterium tuberculum (TB) grow like a wild fire and is very infectious.....the marine species in SW might grow slow, but if you get a superbug (genetic mutation which allows it to grow quickly at higher temps) it could be hrs instead of weeks. Example, normal strep A and B live on the surfaces of all our bodies.....what causes Strep B to go from looking like a pimple at first sign and leaving a grapefruit sized bloody crater 8 hrs later is a genetic mutation.
Bottomline - there are bad things all around us at all times.....just be careful and exersize whatever precautions you deem necessary.......I personally, don't wear gloves and have taken more than one mouthful trying to establish a siphon......never mind the gallons of SW I've ingested while surfing,
Cearbhaill
Premium Member
I bought the Aqua Gloves- as others have mentioned they leak over time. I got some shoulder length veterinary gloves- they leak. I will now order the heavier ones from Lab Safety Supply (thanks for the link StevenPro!).
I do go in my tank bare armed very frequently, but most animal moving I do with very long tweezers- they are so heavy duty I can grasp a fair sized rock/coral with them. The only time I need my bare fingers touching things is when glueing very tiny frags- they are just so difficult to handle.
I will certainly pay more attention to my gardening injuries- my hands are usually covered with small cuts, scrapes, and punctures.
Do we think it is mainly a zoanthid/palythoa thing?
Are there other species to especially avoid handling, or are we talking more of an opportunistic infection?
Edit: oops- onthefly answered a couple of my questions while I was looking up how to spell palythoa
I do go in my tank bare armed very frequently, but most animal moving I do with very long tweezers- they are so heavy duty I can grasp a fair sized rock/coral with them. The only time I need my bare fingers touching things is when glueing very tiny frags- they are just so difficult to handle.
I will certainly pay more attention to my gardening injuries- my hands are usually covered with small cuts, scrapes, and punctures.
Do we think it is mainly a zoanthid/palythoa thing?
Are there other species to especially avoid handling, or are we talking more of an opportunistic infection?
Edit: oops- onthefly answered a couple of my questions while I was looking up how to spell palythoa
Johnsteph10
New member
Woaw. There's some good information in here, but also quite a lot of some "misleading" information (to put it nicely
Just a few things I read through:
1. Handwashing -- handwashing does NOT remove most bacteria. It removes bacteria that we pick up in the environment, not the bacteria that normally grows on our skin. In fact, study after study has shown that if you scrub hard when handwashing that you do remove a lot of that env. bacteria but that you expose even MORE skin bacteria. In short, wash with soap and water and scrub lightly. In surgery, we scrub hard to remove dirt and those env. bacteria we carry with us -- it certainly doesn't make our hands sterile. That's why we go to such great lengths during surgery to keep everything sterile.
2. Rocephin - 3rd generation cephalosporin that has great action against a wide range of bacteria, including a lot of funky critters. One of the safest/most efficacious antibiotics we have!
3. Mycoplasma sp. - contrary to belief, they are very SLOW growers. That is why TB (mycoplasma tuberculosis) usually takes years to develop. It also takes a long time to culture. To treat it, a 6-9 month course of multiple antibiotics is required. Mycoplasma is present everywhere! For example, a lot of ppl have mycoplasma muluscum -- itchy pearl-colored bumps on their skin with a central indentation that are very contagious and last forever. Typical scenario: wrestlers will often get it due to prolonged rough contact. And yes -- it can be sexually transmitted.
In short, wash your hand/arms before going in the tank and after getting out of the tank.
Just my .02 --
John
Just a few things I read through:
1. Handwashing -- handwashing does NOT remove most bacteria. It removes bacteria that we pick up in the environment, not the bacteria that normally grows on our skin. In fact, study after study has shown that if you scrub hard when handwashing that you do remove a lot of that env. bacteria but that you expose even MORE skin bacteria. In short, wash with soap and water and scrub lightly. In surgery, we scrub hard to remove dirt and those env. bacteria we carry with us -- it certainly doesn't make our hands sterile. That's why we go to such great lengths during surgery to keep everything sterile.
2. Rocephin - 3rd generation cephalosporin that has great action against a wide range of bacteria, including a lot of funky critters. One of the safest/most efficacious antibiotics we have!
3. Mycoplasma sp. - contrary to belief, they are very SLOW growers. That is why TB (mycoplasma tuberculosis) usually takes years to develop. It also takes a long time to culture. To treat it, a 6-9 month course of multiple antibiotics is required. Mycoplasma is present everywhere! For example, a lot of ppl have mycoplasma muluscum -- itchy pearl-colored bumps on their skin with a central indentation that are very contagious and last forever. Typical scenario: wrestlers will often get it due to prolonged rough contact. And yes -- it can be sexually transmitted.
In short, wash your hand/arms before going in the tank and after getting out of the tank.
Just my .02 --
John
onthefly
Getting back into it!
Sorry to burst your bubble, but Mycoplasma and Mycobacterium are 2 completetly different organisms........Mycoplasma is an intracellular organism, thus the difficulty in treating and detecting it. Mycobacterium is the genius of bacteria that tuberculosis belongs to.
You are correct that M. tb is slower growing than I originally thought with a doubleing time of 12-18hrs (versus 20-30minutes for E. Coli), but we are trying to compare its growth characteristics between a well studies human pathogen and a poorly studied marine organism.
You are correct that M. tb is slower growing than I originally thought with a doubleing time of 12-18hrs (versus 20-30minutes for E. Coli), but we are trying to compare its growth characteristics between a well studies human pathogen and a poorly studied marine organism.
