Antibiotic treatment for a sick H. magnifica
- Thread starter OrionN
- Start date
Sorry to hear that Orion. I am on week 2 with mine and it looks like I'm finally turning the corner. I was just on the brink with trying to remove him and start antibiotics but the last 2 days hes looked the best I have seen him. I certainly appreciate the work you are doing, please keep us up to date!
OrionN
Moved on
Thanks everybody. I am sure I will treat sick anemones in the future. I will add on to this thread when this happen.
If anybody decided to treat with antibiotic, please add on to this thread, or start a new thread. We do need these information regardless of the result. My experience is to start treatment earlier rather than later. I still have a few Ciprofloxacin and will store these for future use. The treatment tank cleaned and dry. This will kill any pathogen in the equipments and tank.
I moved my baby Magnifica to it home tank yesterday. It is doing great and ate last night.
If anybody decided to treat with antibiotic, please add on to this thread, or start a new thread. We do need these information regardless of the result. My experience is to start treatment earlier rather than later. I still have a few Ciprofloxacin and will store these for future use. The treatment tank cleaned and dry. This will kill any pathogen in the equipments and tank.
I moved my baby Magnifica to it home tank yesterday. It is doing great and ate last night.
Orion I need help. My Mag deflated for almost 36 hours so I went out and got cipro from my vet. When I got home he was huge, the best I've seen him yet, however I feel like he must have a treatment because this cycle will just keep going. How many days should I consider treating him and how often were your non-treatment water changes? Thanks for your help, this anemone is absolutely incredible and I want to try everything before it is too late.
OrionN
Moved on
I use 25 mg per gal. I just dose the medication with all the water change. Usually I change 5 gal per day then dose the tank 125 mg after I change the water. I work on the assumption that the tank without kidney to eliminate the medication will have a reasonable steady level of medication. There will be minor breakdown of medication but the only export pathway for the med is water change.
I did not do any non-treatment water change. Only 50% water change every day and don't feed him (this will produce ammonia that will not break down by bacterial). 50% water change should keep any ammonia produced at a minimal level.
I did not do any non-treatment water change. Only 50% water change every day and don't feed him (this will produce ammonia that will not break down by bacterial). 50% water change should keep any ammonia produced at a minimal level.
Tmoriarty
New member
half life in human plasma is 4-6hrs, I will see if I can get you a better source for in water.
http://www.drugbank.ca/drugs/DB00537
http://www.drugbank.ca/drugs/DB00537
Tmoriarty
New member
Little hard to find, but this is the best information you will probably get,
"Fluoroquinolones (FQs) are fully synthetic antibiotics that are widely used in humans, animals, and fish (Grave et al., 1999; Le and Munekage, 2004; Samanidou et al., 2005; Kemper, 2008). The antibacterial mechanism of FQs is based on inhibition of bacterial DNA gyrase or topoisomerase IV, which are enzymes essential for DNA replication. First-generation FQs are piromidic acid, oxolinic acid, and nalidixic acid, which were widely used in aquaculture in the 1970s in Japan. In tropical Asian countries, oxolinic acid still appears to be one of the major drugs used (Grรยคslund et al., 2003; Le and Munekage, 2004). Second-generation (ciprofloxacin, CIP and norfloxacin, NOR) and third-generation (levofloxacin, LEV and its enantiomer ofloxacin, OFL) compounds are used in hospitals and animal husbandry in Indochina (Takasu et al., 2011).
The FQs are photo-degradable, with a half-life in pure water of 105 and 90min for NOR and CIP, respectively (Burhenne et al., 1997). However, FQs in the environment are relatively stable in water and sediment (Kรยผmmerer, 2004; Le and Munekage, 2004), which might be due to sorption onto particulates (Nowara et al., 1997). Lai and Lin (2009) reported that oxolinic acid and flumequine could be retained in sediment for 9.5โ15 and 3.6โ6.4days, respectively. Such long half-lives in the environment pose a selective pressure for environmental bacteria. Although the bioavailability of antibiotics is suspected to decrease upon adsorption on clay and humic substances, no supporting evidence has been reported."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3283837/
In general what this is going to mean is that you will need to keep doses up pretty high in a BB tank to make sure that the photo-degradation doesn't rid the tank of anti-biotics. This does not however account for absorbtion by the animal tissue or retained water in the animal not exposed to light.
To make anti-biotics effective the level needs to be maintained high enough for the bacteria not to build up a resistance to the anti-biotic. If the bacteria is not killed off by the original few doses another source will need to be used in order to remove the bacteria as they will evolve with resistances to the previous anti-biotic treatment.
Using Minh's method I would perform a daily water change adding as advised 25mg/3.79L (lets stick to metric measurement methods)
Just keep in mind that if you are going to skip a day of a water change, I would add additional anti-biotic daily to ensure the level stays somewhat consistant in the hospital tank.
Hope this helps.
"Fluoroquinolones (FQs) are fully synthetic antibiotics that are widely used in humans, animals, and fish (Grave et al., 1999; Le and Munekage, 2004; Samanidou et al., 2005; Kemper, 2008). The antibacterial mechanism of FQs is based on inhibition of bacterial DNA gyrase or topoisomerase IV, which are enzymes essential for DNA replication. First-generation FQs are piromidic acid, oxolinic acid, and nalidixic acid, which were widely used in aquaculture in the 1970s in Japan. In tropical Asian countries, oxolinic acid still appears to be one of the major drugs used (Grรยคslund et al., 2003; Le and Munekage, 2004). Second-generation (ciprofloxacin, CIP and norfloxacin, NOR) and third-generation (levofloxacin, LEV and its enantiomer ofloxacin, OFL) compounds are used in hospitals and animal husbandry in Indochina (Takasu et al., 2011).
The FQs are photo-degradable, with a half-life in pure water of 105 and 90min for NOR and CIP, respectively (Burhenne et al., 1997). However, FQs in the environment are relatively stable in water and sediment (Kรยผmmerer, 2004; Le and Munekage, 2004), which might be due to sorption onto particulates (Nowara et al., 1997). Lai and Lin (2009) reported that oxolinic acid and flumequine could be retained in sediment for 9.5โ15 and 3.6โ6.4days, respectively. Such long half-lives in the environment pose a selective pressure for environmental bacteria. Although the bioavailability of antibiotics is suspected to decrease upon adsorption on clay and humic substances, no supporting evidence has been reported."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3283837/
In general what this is going to mean is that you will need to keep doses up pretty high in a BB tank to make sure that the photo-degradation doesn't rid the tank of anti-biotics. This does not however account for absorbtion by the animal tissue or retained water in the animal not exposed to light.
To make anti-biotics effective the level needs to be maintained high enough for the bacteria not to build up a resistance to the anti-biotic. If the bacteria is not killed off by the original few doses another source will need to be used in order to remove the bacteria as they will evolve with resistances to the previous anti-biotic treatment.
Using Minh's method I would perform a daily water change adding as advised 25mg/3.79L (lets stick to metric measurement methods)
Just keep in mind that if you are going to skip a day of a water change, I would add additional anti-biotic daily to ensure the level stays somewhat consistant in the hospital tank.
Hope this helps.
OrionN
Moved on
Thanks a million Tyler
It seem like photo degradation is a major elimination pathway.
I will change my treatment to 25 mg/gal dose daily when the light turn out each day, regardless of water change. I think this will give high enough concentration in the anemone as it absorb it overnight. I would still do 50% water change late in the evening each day. This would be what I will use from now on.
Treatment under my old assumption seem to be successful in suppress bacterial growth in the anemone. It died but did not break apart or smell terrible as would be untreated.
It seem like photo degradation is a major elimination pathway.
I will change my treatment to 25 mg/gal dose daily when the light turn out each day, regardless of water change. I think this will give high enough concentration in the anemone as it absorb it overnight. I would still do 50% water change late in the evening each day. This would be what I will use from now on.
Treatment under my old assumption seem to be successful in suppress bacterial growth in the anemone. It died but did not break apart or smell terrible as would be untreated.
LeLutinBanni
New member
Very nice article
maxxII
Super Housemonkey!
Minh,
Great thread and I'm glad you detailed this as much as you could. Definately a good source of information and a great jump off point for future endeavors.
Regarding the blue part of the post I quoted:
I just spent a little over an hour going through all of my subscribed threads....all 1004 or so of them. I know I used to be subscribed to the original thread, but the only thing I could find was a quoted post in a different thread. The Original Poster you talking about was Joe Yaiullo, JustJoe here. He works at Long Island Aquarium I believe and his is quoted post:
From this thread: QT procedures for anemones
I had a situation where I introduced a newly arrived H.magnifica anemone to my system and wound up losing the new anemone and nearly lost my healthy established brown based H.magnifica. I wound up dosing it with doxycycline (100mg tab in a specimen container like the type used in LFS to hold/catch fish. The container was kept in the display to maintain temperature and light, and an airstone was added to maintain circulation and oxygenation). for 12 hours total. I had to do a 100% water change within the first 4 hours because the anemone was sliming and the airstone and the slime turned the container into a skimmer and I didnt want any overflowing into my display. After 12 hours, I removed the anemone from the container and returned it to the display, it looked alot better immediately after being returned to the tank and didnt need any further baths. The anemone made a full recovery and I've had it for over 6.5 years now.
I've tried to use Doxy as a dip for newly arrived anemones afterwards, and didnt see similar results in all of them. I suspect I got lucky with my established anemone and it was infected with a bacteria that is treatable with doxy. I'm assuming the others were not infected with a bacteria treatable with doxy.
Regardless, great job in documenting, and excellent work in saving the little purple based Nano Magnifica.
Nick
Great thread and I'm glad you detailed this as much as you could. Definately a good source of information and a great jump off point for future endeavors.
Regarding the blue part of the post I quoted:
I just spent a little over an hour going through all of my subscribed threads....all 1004 or so of them. I know I used to be subscribed to the original thread, but the only thing I could find was a quoted post in a different thread. The Original Poster you talking about was Joe Yaiullo, JustJoe here. He works at Long Island Aquarium I believe and his is quoted post:
From this thread: QT procedures for anemones
I had a situation where I introduced a newly arrived H.magnifica anemone to my system and wound up losing the new anemone and nearly lost my healthy established brown based H.magnifica. I wound up dosing it with doxycycline (100mg tab in a specimen container like the type used in LFS to hold/catch fish. The container was kept in the display to maintain temperature and light, and an airstone was added to maintain circulation and oxygenation). for 12 hours total. I had to do a 100% water change within the first 4 hours because the anemone was sliming and the airstone and the slime turned the container into a skimmer and I didnt want any overflowing into my display. After 12 hours, I removed the anemone from the container and returned it to the display, it looked alot better immediately after being returned to the tank and didnt need any further baths. The anemone made a full recovery and I've had it for over 6.5 years now.
I've tried to use Doxy as a dip for newly arrived anemones afterwards, and didnt see similar results in all of them. I suspect I got lucky with my established anemone and it was infected with a bacteria that is treatable with doxy. I'm assuming the others were not infected with a bacteria treatable with doxy.
Regardless, great job in documenting, and excellent work in saving the little purple based Nano Magnifica.
Nick
Minh, just wanted to give a quick update. After 3 days of treatment I decided to put him back in my refugium that is connected to my main tank. I was absolutely sure he was dead, there was only a tiny flicker of the tentacles that made me think there was still hope. When I came back home this evening, I totally expected to see a half disintegrated anemone in my tank. What I found was 2 totally inflated mags that were both still a little pale from expelling so much zooanthelle, but look 2 million times better than than it did. Tomorrow I will try and feed them and if they both look better, it's back to the display. This has been one hell of a roller coaster ride this past 3 weeks, but maybe with some TLC both of these anemones might make it. Thanks for your help Minh.
OrionN
Moved on
That is really great.
The first time my Magnifica divided, I thought he was dead for sure. He was deflated for several days, then the mouth start to open up. then I see rock through the mouth. It looks like he was dissolving from the inside. Then he split and the two haves move apart and heal up. That first time was a roller coaster ride. This happened to me I think in 2000. At the time, there was no documentation of Magnifica splitting. I documented here at Reefcentral but the upgrade by RC messed up the whole thing and lost the pictures. If you search back to the fist 1000 or so posts that I posted, if it is still available, you find the first documentation of splitting H. magnifica.
I would not feed hem just yet. It may take him a few days to get his stomach heal up. Early feeding can do a lot more harm than good.
The first time my Magnifica divided, I thought he was dead for sure. He was deflated for several days, then the mouth start to open up. then I see rock through the mouth. It looks like he was dissolving from the inside. Then he split and the two haves move apart and heal up. That first time was a roller coaster ride. This happened to me I think in 2000. At the time, there was no documentation of Magnifica splitting. I documented here at Reefcentral but the upgrade by RC messed up the whole thing and lost the pictures. If you search back to the fist 1000 or so posts that I posted, if it is still available, you find the first documentation of splitting H. magnifica.
I would not feed hem just yet. It may take him a few days to get his stomach heal up. Early feeding can do a lot more harm than good.
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