any electricians here for a quick question?

[aww_419]

What do you mean by at the sump and at the tank. If they are on the same series its kind of pointless. A gcfi will react to stray current at around a 30th of a second i believe. So as long as there is a gcfi first in the series any spike or surge will cause all outlets on that series to be "tripped" and rendered powerless. There are different types of amp and current gfis. You would be fine with the standard 20amp gfis. But there are small amounts of current that will not set off a gfi. A grounding probe can be somewhat useful, very small amounts of stray current that would not be detected by a gcfi can be nullified with the probe. those small amounts of current wouldn't harm you or cause a fire but ive heard that it can effect fish and or coral. I have no experience with that though. Its a good idea to use plastic parts where ever possible in the sump. Even some of those water safe wire nuts have metal springs inside, which can rust from small amounts of trapped moisture and or salt creep.

 

[acdraindrps]

If your putting in more than one outlet only the 1st outlet in the series needs to be gfci. A gfci senses the amount of current that is transferred from hot to neutral. Yes if your hands are in the water and a surge happens on a non gfci outlet you will be shocked or worse. If your hand are not in the water the extra current transferred between hot and neutral will cause an increase in temperature. Basically creating an exposed heating coil which I have seen cause fires. IME even if your using a water safe nut I would still use a bit of extra caution and seal it with some silicone. Just because its water safe doesnt mean that accidents dont happen. Small price to pay for the assurance.

I am not really sure what you are trying to get at when talking about a 'surge' or 'extra current transferred' or 'exposed heating coil'.

A GFI (ground fault interrupter) in a household circuit will monitor current flow from hot to neutral. If any of that current were to leave the intended circuit, flow through a human, and travel to ground, there would be a difference in the amount of current in the hot and neutral wires. This difference is sensed by the GFI, and it will open the circuit (and very well may save your life).

A circuit breaker in a household circuit will sense if a current draw exceeds a rated amperage. (ie: too many appliances, or short circuit somewhere) This can (as others have said) save your house from burning down. (short circuit in a household circuit = lots of current drawn = maybe where you were going with the exposed heating coil idea?)

To the original poster: use a GFI, a surface mount waterproof outlet, 12/3 wire, LFMC, and support the LFMC every 4.5 ft (and I think at least 6" from any box) and you will be up to code. You will not have to worry about using any special wirenuts if you use a water tight box. There will be no exposed wiring as well as nuts, if your entire circuit if waterproof (waterproof box, as well as the liquid tight flex metal conduit). I would, however, seal with silicone where your flex conduit meets your waterproof outlet box. This will be the only area where water will be able to enter your circuit.

 

[acdraindrps]

The first outlet is a GFI. I have two GFI's - one at the sump and one at the tank. I did this in case one trips I don't loose the other. Is there a benefit to also adding a GFI breaker at the panel?

Since you know your electric If a GFI measure hot to neutral - would a grounding probe in the tank draw stray electric and trip the GFI due to the lack of return to neutral?

If the first outlet in a branch circuit is a GFI, then every outlet on the branch circuit is GFI protected. You do not need two GFI's in the same circuit, as long as the GFI you install is built into your breaker, or on the first outlet in a branch circuit.

A grounding probe will do exactly that. It will allow current a path to travel to ground. In a perfect world you would not need a grounding probe. If you do have a grounding probe and GFI, the second (milisecond) current travels through your ground probe, your GFI will sense the difference in current from your hot and neutral wires and open the circuit. In essence, when a human becomes the equivalent to your 'grounding probe' is the exact reason a gfi is used. I think its something like 50mA through the heart can kill you.

Although like I have said, in a perfect world you would not lose any current, not need a grounding probe, and as result not trip your gfi.

 

[acdraindrps]

What do you mean by at the sump and at the tank. If they are on the same series its kind of pointless. A gcfi will react to stray current at around a 30th of a second i believe. So as long as there is a gcfi first in the series any spike or surge will cause all outlets on that series to be "tripped" and rendered powerless. There are different types of amp and current gfis. You would be fine with the standard 20amp gfis. But there are small amounts of current that will not set off a gfi. A grounding probe can be somewhat useful, very small amounts of stray current that would not be detected by a gcfi can be nullified with the probe. those small amounts of current wouldn't harm you or cause a fire but ive heard that it can effect fish and or coral. I have no experience with that though. Its a good idea to use plastic parts where ever possible in the sump. Even some of those water safe wire nuts have metal springs inside, which can rust from small amounts of trapped moisture and or salt creep.

There are different types of amp and current gfis.

Amp and current is the same term. The amperage of your branch circuit will not be rated by a gfi. A gfi is a component of a rated outlet or breaker. In the original posters case, a 20A circuit.

I am not saying you dont know your stuff, just that you are not doing the best job at explaining it. I was the same way though. Hopefully after this semester I have my ducks in a row.

 

[aww_419]

if you read it again chris youll see where i said "nongfci outlet"

I was trying to explain it the best way i could to someone who admittedly doesn't know electricity as well as others. So where I was going with and went with was that Yes! a gfci can save your life but CAN also save your house from a fire.

A surge is defined in terms of electricity as a sudden or abrupt strong increase in energy

So in a non gfci if there is an abrupt, or constant or steady strong increase in energy between the hot and neutral slots that can and will cause an "electrical arc". Which is basically unused energy (joules) that is put to use in the form of heat. On a 110 line this would be around 1700 degrees Fahrenheit. By the "z" law in thermodynamics, this transfer in energy has to be transferred between two object. if your hands are in the water then the receiving object would be you. If your not there than the two objects would be one, the objects that is higher in temp (aka the outlet with the 1700 degree arc) to one of lower temp (aka anything else around or inside the electrical box, unless you live on the sun) in the form that energy likes best FIRE!!! Also with electricity, wires are expanding and contrasting always. This can cause loosening in fittings and connections so caution should be used anywhere bare wire is used even when somewhat sealed.

I think giving the OP any general advice on code without knowing the code in the town he lives in is a bit risky. The advice I gave was the most extreme ive seen in the area. Some towns may only require conduit up to 6" from the breaker box but I have seen codes that require it only in certain areas, outside, or a farther distance from the box and even run all the way to the box. So my advice was to just run conduit to and into the box with a breaker box bung bracket for safety sake and even under the most strict of codes


In all other mechanical aspects of this hobby everybody says "fail safe fail safe fail safe" so why should running electricity to your water filled aquarium be any different. So blurry my advice to you is not to cut any corners or skimp on safety at all. If someone says something isnt necessary because it should be safe enough for one reason or another. Do it anyway!!

also as caution,

Make sure your line is the correct amperage for what breaker you ran it to.
Make sure the outlets are the correct amperage and the 1st on the series is a gfi
I would run wire and conduit all the way from the breaker to a water safe box
Break the bank and spend the whole extra $2 and get water safe nuts
Silicone anything!! that god willing something could at all become loose and a wire would be exposed. IE. wire nuts, any opening to the box such as where the wires are run.
Youll be glad if some how the door to the box becomes loose or gets left open.
If possible run the wiring entering the outlet box from the bottom of the box. or loop every wire that enters the outlet box, similar to the gas trap on the plumbing under your kitchen sink. This will cause any water that travels down the cords to drip away from the top of the box.
Incase of a flood keep any wiring or outlets as far from the floor as you can but at least as high as your local code enforcement would like.
You may need to have your local code enforcer or whomever they outsource to come out and check your work if youd still like your home owners to cover flood or fire damage.

 

[aww_419]

I know most of what I know about electricity from our rental properties and physics. Physics will teach you that current and amp are different since current has two definitions one being the amount of the charge (amps) and one being purely being the phenom of the flow of the actual charge.

I know he said he was using 12/3 but I must have missed where he said the breaker was 20 amp. you could safely use 12/3 on any breaker that has an amperage of 20 and under. maybe not extremely safe but not unheard of

Most GFIs will not measure a current under 4 or 5 milliamps so i think a grounding probe could come in handy for those minuscule amounts of current. Just not sure if it that amount does any harm or not.

I wasnt trying to argue terms or anything just initially wanted to state that gfi also stops fires from starting and then everything spiraled out of context as usual on this site.

Chris what and where are you studying? UB Physics? I have a ton of 4th year stuff left over like books notes tests etc if your interested.

 

[acdraindrps]

if you read it again chris youll see where i said "nongfci outlet"

I was trying to explain it the best way i could to someone who admittedly doesn't know electricity as well as others. So where I was going with and went with was that Yes! a gfci can save your life but CAN also save your house from a fire.

A surge is defined in terms of electricity as a sudden or abrupt strong increase in energy

So in a non gfci if there is an abrupt, or constant or steady strong increase in energy between the hot and neutral slots that can and will cause an "electrical arc". Which is basically unused energy (joules) that is put to use in the form of heat. On a 110 line this would be around 1700 degrees Fahrenheit. By the "z" law in thermodynamics, this transfer in energy has to be transferred between two object. if your hands are in the water then the receiving object would be you. If your not there than the two objects would be one, the objects that is higher in temp (aka the outlet with the 1700 degree arc) to one of lower temp (aka anything else around or inside the electrical box, unless you live on the sun) in the form that energy likes best FIRE!!! Also with electricity, wires are expanding and contrasting always. This can cause loosening in fittings and connections so caution should be used anywhere bare wire is used even when somewhat sealed.

I think giving the OP any general advice on code without knowing the code in the town he lives in is a bit risky. The advice I gave was the most extreme ive seen in the area. Some towns may only require conduit up to 6" from the breaker box but I have seen codes that require it only in certain areas, outside, or a farther distance from the box and even run all the way to the box. So my advice was to just run conduit to and into the box with a breaker box bung bracket for safety sake and even under the most strict of codes


In all other mechanical aspects of this hobby everybody says "fail safe fail safe fail safe" so why should running electricity to your water filled aquarium be any different. So blurry my advice to you is not to cut any corners or skimp on safety at all. If someone says something isnt necessary because it should be safe enough for one reason or another. Do it anyway!!

also as caution,

Make sure your line is the correct amperage for what breaker you ran it to.
Make sure the outlets are the correct amperage and the 1st on the series is a gfi
I would run wire and conduit all the way from the breaker to a water safe box
Break the bank and spend the whole extra $2 and get water safe nuts
Silicone anything!! that god willing something could at all become loose and a wire would be exposed. IE. wire nuts, any opening to the box such as where the wires are run.
Youll be glad if some how the door to the box becomes loose or gets left open.
If possible run the wiring entering the outlet box from the bottom of the box. or loop every wire that enters the outlet box, similar to the gas trap on the plumbing under your kitchen sink. This will cause any water that travels down the cords to drip away from the top of the box.
Incase of a flood keep any wiring or outlets as far from the floor as you can but at least as high as your local code enforcement would like.
You may need to have your local code enforcer or whomever they outsource to come out and check your work if youd still like your home owners to cover flood or fire damage.

If the original poster wasn't nervous to begin with I could just imagine now..:lmao:

If a voltage spike occurred that was high enough to cause arcing between two terminals on an outlet, you are absolutely right. A LOT of energy would be the result, and yes - a fire could result. However, an arc across the hot and neutral would be the equivalent of an electrical short. A current would then be drawn exceeding the rating on the circuit breaker. The result would be an open circuit almost immediately. Lets say there existed an electrical arc for ten thousandths of a second, is the original poster going to fry themselves?

Again - this is not the work of a gfi. A gfi is used so a person will not feel a current flow. (I looked it up for my own curiosity and its 15mA through the heart than can kill someone)

 

[acdraindrps]

I know most of what I know about electricity from our rental properties and physics. Physics will teach you that current and amp are different since current has two definitions one being the amount of the charge (amps) and one being purely being the phenom of the flow of the actual charge.

I know he said he was using 12/3 but I must have missed where he said the breaker was 20 amp. you could safely use 12/3 on any breaker that has an amperage of 20 and under. maybe not extremely safe but not unheard of

Most GFIs will not measure a current under 4 or 5 milliamps so i think a grounding probe could come in handy for those minuscule amounts of current. Just not sure if it that amount does any harm or not.

I wasnt trying to argue terms or anything just initially wanted to state that gfi also stops fires from starting and then everything spiraled out of context as usual on this site.

Chris what and where are you studying? UB Physics? I have a ton of 4th year stuff left over like books notes tests etc if your interested.

No spiraling, just adding to what I study and will be my livelihood within the next year or two. I would honestly sit here and discuss the amount of joules in an electrical arc all night if I didnt have an electonics exam tomorrow... ooh wait... :lmao:

I am studying electrical engineering technology, finishing up this semester at ecc, and doing the next two years at buff state. I had to take physics one and two and they were a pain in the... But the electrical stuff they get into just wasnt enough to fully analyze ac and dc circuits. I wanted to rip my hair out when I was REALLY learning alternating current.

 

[aww_419]

Yeah i went to hutch tech, some students could choose to do electrical engineering courses. I used to see friends with those circuit diagrams. No fun at all. I fixed out dryer the other week and it came with the electrical diagram. I sat there trying to decipher that thing for hours. Finally said f it and just guessed. Good guess though.

However, an arc across the hot and neutral would be the equivalent of an electrical short. A current would then be drawn exceeding the rating on the circuit breaker. The result would be an open circuit almost immediately. Lets say there existed an electrical arc for ten thousandths of a second, is the original poster going to fry themselves?

Again - this is not the work of a gfi. A gfi is used so a person will not feel a current flow. (I looked it up for my own curiosity and its 15mA through the heart than can kill someone)

your absolutely right. But again i was referring to a non gfi outlet or series. And it wouldnt have to be an overload or "spike" an arc could be caused by corrosion or any other condition that would cause a break between the conductors. Come to think of it I remember an article suggesting that gfis would not stop arcing and that afis were used to stop arcing(arc fault interrupters) I have it on a book disk but it directs you to a website. I will try and find it. arcing itself is very interesting. One of those things in nature that connot be explained. We know how to recreate it and can see it and know why it works just dont know how. kinda like gravity. everyone knows it exist but it cant be proven and no one knows why it works.

Also if it only took 5 milliamps wed all be dead. Truth is that static electricity has more amperage than 5 milliamps and that those 5 milliamps needed to stop a human heart have to be applied directly to your heart. Which means your chest must be cut open and your heart exposed in order to do so. Electricity is dispersed across the body because of resistance. it all depends on other factors, is your skin wet, clothes wet, dry, direct current or ac? are both hands grounded? In reality these are the optimum conditions for current to reach your heart and be fatal. Your body and clothing dry so that less current is dispersed to the rest of your body, both hands need to be grounded to the most readily accessible and best conductor for "ground". This allows electricity the fastest route to your heart (Through one arm and across the chest and back down the other arm). with these optimal conditions for the current to reach the body your talking between 60 to 100 milliamps, at a voltage of 110 to 220 volts, 60-hertz alternating current traveling through the chest for 1/1000 of a second can cause life cardiac arrest or irregular heart rhythms. About 300 to 500 milliamps of dc current to have the same effect. And that does not guarantee death. More people are killed and injured from electrical fires each year than by electrification. Ill send you the info i sourced if you want I dont want to cite without permission.

 

[acdraindrps]

your absolutely right. But again i was referring to a non gfi outlet or series.

I feel like you are not grasping what I am trying to explain.

Very basically:

It doesn't matter if you were referring to gfi or not. A gfi has absolutely nothing to do with the event of a surge.

An outlet is not going to arc across itself during a surge. For arguments sake lets say you experienced a voltage surge in your house strong enough to cause a spark across an outlet. The breaker will trip, because too much current is drawn.

 

[aww_419]

I gotcha before, you were saying that arcing would be stopped by the circuit breaker. The article I read disagrees that arcing will cause a breaker to trip. Here is the article on arcing and AFIs taken from the UB advanced physics 2 text by Gibbs and cited from the New England American society of home inspectors.

http://www.mytexasinspector.com/pdf/AFCI Advice.pdf

Notice the second sub section titled "the fire problem" quoted "Annually, over 40,000 fires are attributed to home electrical wiring. These fires result in over 350
deaths and over 1,400 injuries each year. Arcing faults are one of the major causes of these fires."

here is the other article you can get by clicking a link in the first article where it shows arcing at the breaker box and the breaker remains un-tripped and live.
Its in the last subsection titled "Burned, arced breaker still in place, still "live""

http://www.inspectapedia.com/electric/badbreaker.htm

 

[aww_419]

Also in order for 5 milliamps to cause any kind of heart palpitation the chest cavity needs to be cut open and the heart directly exposed to the current.

In reality there are many factors that contribute to death by electricusion. There are many factors on the human body and its environment that act as resisters from electricity.Such as wet or dry, sick or healthy, ac or dc current, what voltage what kind of conductors are used etc. Even with optimum factors for current to effect the heart it takes quite a bit of current to be fatal.

The best situation for electricity to stop a human heart other than by cardiologist is this.

Human person in good health

Completely dry skin and clothing to prevent and dispersion of current to the rest of the body.

Hands or arms both grounded to the nearest and best conductor to be used as grounds
This gives the current the fastest and most direct route to the heart ( from one arm, across the chest past the heart and out the other arm)

Even with these perfect conditions for a leathal level current to flow to the heart it takes a minimum current as low as 60 to 100 milliamps, at low voltage of 110 to 220 volts, at 60-hertz alternating current traveling through the chest for 1/1000th of a second to cause irregular heart rhythms or arrest. Thats about 300 to 500 milliamps of dc current to do the same thing.

I got then when trying to answer your question on whether or not the 1/1000th of a second it would take for the breaker to trip would cause the OP any harm with his hands in the tank. Looks like it would.

thats taken from "Electrical Injuries." The Merck Manual of Medical Information, a study done by Merck corp in 1997.

 

[mr.maroonsalty]

If a gfci protected from fires wouldn't you think they would be required by code on every circuit? Anyway, one more thing the local building department does nothing with the electrical inspection other than check to see that the sticker from a certified electrical inspector is on the panel; I believe that may be a national code cert.

 

[pascal32]

LOL - I'm running late to work so this will be short.

- amperage is a measurement of current.
- breaker is for excessive draw to prevent overloading wires
- GFI measures movement of electrons between hot and neutral to see if there is another ground (possibly a person)
- My interest is in keeping the house and everyone in it safe. overkill with something is alright. I'm switching to waterproof housing and box.
- I prefer to stay to code for many reasons
- The wiring here is simple - 12/3 with two regular breakers to a junction box. Line A passes though to the garage. Line A has a GFI in the garage before feeding teh outlets. Line B goes to both the sump and Display. each has a GFI as the first outlet with the subsequent on the load terminals.
- all wiring is 12 gauge (garage is stranded, sump feed is stranded, rest is solid.
- The drip loop is an excellent point - as currently installed there is a slight possibility of water running the length of the conduit, though extreme it is notable.

no, I'm not more worried than before I was seeking input as there are folks with a lot more knowledge than I have and their (everones!) opinion is important to me!

I'm still trying to determine if there is a benefit to a GFI breaker at the panel -

I will follow up with pictures ones the updates are made.

thanks a ton!

 

[mr.maroonsalty]

Another thing much more on topic. I'm around my tank a lot, but when I'm not I learned the hard way to plug a couple of my powerheads into a non-gfci outlet. If my tank was unattended for long periods regularly, I would take my chances with my own life and have one or too small powerheads plugged to a regular receptacle; you would have to decide doing that yourself. For short amount of time battery backups would keep you protected.

 

[Gravesj1s]

Wow, this thread has gotten quite technical.
Imo/e,I'd have to agree with the poster in that a code inspector will do little "inspecting" other than checking to see if a licensed electrician did the work or inspected the work and placed his sticker on the panel.For final inspection anyway.Prior to that inspection of the rough-in work ,whitch their inspection could be defined as your gang boxes are minimum distances from the floor and other very basic visual stuff.

If you want inspection call a reputable electrician not a code inspector.

Personaly,I wouldn't bother with a gfci at the breaker box,I dont quite get why it would be their anyway.I'd want a gfci closest to the tank as possible.

I have a close friend who did (not sure currently) electrical inspections for the town of ononadga and is an electrician by trade.If it will help here I could give him a call tonight but I got to admit upfront here Id have trouble reiterating the complexity of some of the posts in this thread.

 

[acdraindrps]

I'm still trying to determine if there is a benefit to a GFI breaker at the panel -

If your gfi is first in the branch circuit, then no. A gfi at the panel would do you no extra - good.

 

[acdraindrps]

I gotcha before, you were saying that arcing would be stopped by the circuit breaker. The article I read disagrees that arcing will cause a breaker to trip. Here is the article on arcing and AFIs taken from the UB advanced physics 2 text by Gibbs and cited from the New England American society of home inspectors.

http://www.mytexasinspector.com/pdf/AFCI Advice.pdf

Notice the second sub section titled "the fire problem" quoted "Annually, over 40,000 fires are attributed to home electrical wiring. These fires result in over 350
deaths and over 1,400 injuries each year. Arcing faults are one of the major causes of these fires."

here is the other article you can get by clicking a link in the first article where it shows arcing at the breaker box and the breaker remains un-tripped and live.
Its in the last subsection titled "Burned, arced breaker still in place, still "live""

http://www.inspectapedia.com/electric/badbreaker.htm

You can use google as much as you want to try and disprove me, but at the end of the day you really dont know your facts. I'm sorry it came to me actually having to spell this out for you.

 

[Willistein]

What was the problem with mounting the electrical boxes up higher on the wall and not under the sump?

 

[aww_419]

If a gfci protected from fires wouldn't you think they would be required by code on every circuit?

Are we seriously debating on whether or not something that shuts off current can help prevent a fire???? I know that It is required by code in buffalo to have one in every bathroom in any rental home or apartment in the city. And no, not every fail safe to help prevent fires is required by code or else there would be no house fires. Its not code to have a fire extinguisher but its a good idea, not code to have a breaker box instead of a fuse box but its a good idea, and its not code to have wiring less than 25 years old in the house but it is a good idea.

Anyway, one more thing the local building department does nothing with the electrical inspection other than check to see that the sticker from a certified electrical inspector is on the panel; I believe that may be a national code cert.

I just had our hottub inspected. Cheektowaga out sources their electrical inspection to the electrical fire underwriters company in town. They come out to your home and inspect every little detail and tell you to fix what ever is wrong and its required from them to come out and check everything they told you to fix. It cost $65 for every 3 visits and they are thorough!!



Chris, Sorry it came to this for some reason too. You said it was impossible, I was simply providing an article that says that it is at the very least that its slightly possible that this type of accident can happen. Try and find the PDF article with some general google search, I dont think youll find it, dont hold me to that tho cuz i didnt try it yet. But a simple google search of "electrical arc house fire" every article show that over 50 percent of housfires are caused by arcs with and without circuit breakers. Why would you PM me saying no disrespect or insult, that your just throwing out different ideas and facts for the OP, then try to insult me when I do the same but with written facts? Like you said, you dont and i dont know everything on this subject. So why cant there be something out there on this topic that you havent learned in the last couple years at school? I know I dont know everything about this topic but i do know that I have seen and read about how electrical fires happen and repaired panels and outlets that were victims of charring from arcs on homes with breakers and I do know people who have had electrical fires and even lost their homes. So to say that a fire is impossible and to suggest not to fail safe against it to me is absurd. Even if something was very very very unlikely I would like to prevent any harm to my family by not being that one person who is the exception to the rule.

If anyone is actually reading this to get a step by step idea on how to run an outlet box. I would google the info of an electrician and do it the safe and insured way.