Any interest in organizing?
- Thread starter David M
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mwp
In Memoriam
Well, the 2 LFS's that I most frequent are actually online 24/7 right at the front counter, and I can think of at least a few more that are as well (i.e. the last one I worked at, all the importing from Bali was arranged online via emails). You are correct in so much that LFS's do rely more on weekly instock lists from suppliers coming by fax (or some by email).
Of course, there are two main ways LFS's find out about sources. Either the source seeks the shops out (i.e. coldcalling) or the shop seeks out the source (typically through trade journal listings / directories). Of course, look at a site like Frags.org and you'll understand that there is potentially a HUGE "market" out there in direct & local sales & trades too. I.e. I have no interest selling my 14 available (6 now spoken for) GBG's at a wholesale level to a shop....not enough money in it to make it worthwhile considering a YEAR of failed breeding efforts. I'd be much more interested in selling the few fish I have to other breeders and hobbyists than taking them to the shop to sell them at less than $10 each. For now, my avenues to reach the local individuals I want to sell to are eBay, Aquabid, and forums, as well as digging through emails and PMs to see if there's anyone who expressed an interest that I haven't yet talked to.
Selling small batches of fish out directly to fellow hobbyists, you can still actually get a retail level price for CB marines...can't say the same for most any FW fish...hobbyist to hobbyist prices are now often lower than wholesale (as a shop manager I literally used to clean up at the Cichlid auctions...i.e. getting several bags of fish that might have a wholesale value of $20 for only a buck!). The advantage of not selling to LFS's, but seaking out hobbyist connections, is that it at least makes breeding and rearing marines a "LESS LOSING" proposition, especially with a tiny batch of fish. It'll be a different story if I have a few hundred Onyx Percs to move, but on batches I and III, only 3 remaining in each batch, why part with those for $10-$20 a shot when I can find the handful of folks who are willing to give me $40-70 each?
I guess what I'm getting at is that it isn't just LFS's who buy CB marine fish, in fact until more hobbyists are willing to spend the cash, or WC fish keep going up in price and reducing in selection/availability the LFS's could kinda care less (as a general concept, forgive those LFS's that "DO" care).
One other way a simple open forum along the lines of Frags.org could benefit is to facilitate TRADES between small-time breeders and basement businesses. I.e...David has Fire Clowns, more than he can move, and Joe has Clarkii, more than he can move. I smell a swap in the works, that ultimately benefits both breeders by increasing selection (and thus interest and ultimately revenues) for small time operations. Or for that matter, maybe David wants to put Onyx clowns on his list...maybe he finds me and I'm willing to work something out for a couple dozen rather than flood my very limited local market...maybe he has a spare pair of something breeding that I don't...I smell a trade....
I guess the biggest thing is that the more "exchange" of both knowledge and actual CB marine fish, the better off everyone can be. That should be the main goal of any such organization / website.
Matt
Of course, there are two main ways LFS's find out about sources. Either the source seeks the shops out (i.e. coldcalling) or the shop seeks out the source (typically through trade journal listings / directories). Of course, look at a site like Frags.org and you'll understand that there is potentially a HUGE "market" out there in direct & local sales & trades too. I.e. I have no interest selling my 14 available (6 now spoken for) GBG's at a wholesale level to a shop....not enough money in it to make it worthwhile considering a YEAR of failed breeding efforts. I'd be much more interested in selling the few fish I have to other breeders and hobbyists than taking them to the shop to sell them at less than $10 each. For now, my avenues to reach the local individuals I want to sell to are eBay, Aquabid, and forums, as well as digging through emails and PMs to see if there's anyone who expressed an interest that I haven't yet talked to.
Selling small batches of fish out directly to fellow hobbyists, you can still actually get a retail level price for CB marines...can't say the same for most any FW fish...hobbyist to hobbyist prices are now often lower than wholesale (as a shop manager I literally used to clean up at the Cichlid auctions...i.e. getting several bags of fish that might have a wholesale value of $20 for only a buck!). The advantage of not selling to LFS's, but seaking out hobbyist connections, is that it at least makes breeding and rearing marines a "LESS LOSING" proposition, especially with a tiny batch of fish. It'll be a different story if I have a few hundred Onyx Percs to move, but on batches I and III, only 3 remaining in each batch, why part with those for $10-$20 a shot when I can find the handful of folks who are willing to give me $40-70 each?
I guess what I'm getting at is that it isn't just LFS's who buy CB marine fish, in fact until more hobbyists are willing to spend the cash, or WC fish keep going up in price and reducing in selection/availability the LFS's could kinda care less (as a general concept, forgive those LFS's that "DO" care).
One other way a simple open forum along the lines of Frags.org could benefit is to facilitate TRADES between small-time breeders and basement businesses. I.e...David has Fire Clowns, more than he can move, and Joe has Clarkii, more than he can move. I smell a swap in the works, that ultimately benefits both breeders by increasing selection (and thus interest and ultimately revenues) for small time operations. Or for that matter, maybe David wants to put Onyx clowns on his list...maybe he finds me and I'm willing to work something out for a couple dozen rather than flood my very limited local market...maybe he has a spare pair of something breeding that I don't...I smell a trade....
I guess the biggest thing is that the more "exchange" of both knowledge and actual CB marine fish, the better off everyone can be. That should be the main goal of any such organization / website.
Matt
mwp
In Memoriam
BTW, I think one of the big reasons that sites like eBay and Frags.org (2 very different beasts) is that they are there to facilitate but are not actually involved in various transactions. Both communities set the basic groundrules, but it's up to the individuals to make things happen (or not happen). Both systems rely on user feedback as a basic guideline for parties involved in a transaction. eBay isn't free, Frags.org obviously IS. I wouldn't want some umbrella organization collecting my cash, arranging my shipments of fish, taking a slice of my pie etc...that's for ME, the seller to do. I'd want something that facilitates connections, not an actual middleman or dropshipping transshipper (which is basically what Mimic described).
Matt
Matt
mwp
In Memoriam
So now, as I finally sit down to peruse the other thread going on Rareclownfish.com...here's some thoughts.
1. The fact that an organization tries to limit competition between breeders, i.e. designating that certain species can be shipped, while others can't, is very anti-free market! Afterall, breeders obtain rare stock to help sell the run of the mill stock...telling me I can ship my latz anywhere but my onyx percs can't leave the midwest is beyond wrong...and probably illegal to boot!
2. I mentioned earlier that I'm a member of the "Rod Builder's Guild". Actually, I'm more than just a member, I'm a Certified Professional Rod Builder (took a written essay certification test among other things). MAC certifies it's members, but I'm not really sure how such an organization can certify individual hobby breeders all around the globe...but it IS an interesting concept.
In any case, in look at a truly similar organization (The Rod Builder's Guild) they face many of the same challenges...how do you convince someone that a $300 custom built fly rod is any better than the same thing factory built for $200 (especially when it comes with a better warranty). I'd have to be honest to say that the organization seems to fall short on this one. However, they do act as some authority that helps a small time guy like myself have some credibility vs. just a fly-by-night dude building fishin' poles! However, the big thing that this organization does is help members connect with each other, share information, and help the newbs that join up to spread and advance the activity of custom (fishing) rod building. They hold a few events around the country each year as well. In many respects, the ACA is coming back to mind as well.
It seems the guys at Rareclownfish.com were ready to plunge headfirst without bothering to check the depth of the pool. There's a LOT of similar organizations trying to acheive similar goals in other fields and a lot of good ideas that can be borrowed and built on.
Time for bed
Matt
1. The fact that an organization tries to limit competition between breeders, i.e. designating that certain species can be shipped, while others can't, is very anti-free market! Afterall, breeders obtain rare stock to help sell the run of the mill stock...telling me I can ship my latz anywhere but my onyx percs can't leave the midwest is beyond wrong...and probably illegal to boot!
2. I mentioned earlier that I'm a member of the "Rod Builder's Guild". Actually, I'm more than just a member, I'm a Certified Professional Rod Builder (took a written essay certification test among other things). MAC certifies it's members, but I'm not really sure how such an organization can certify individual hobby breeders all around the globe...but it IS an interesting concept.
In any case, in look at a truly similar organization (The Rod Builder's Guild) they face many of the same challenges...how do you convince someone that a $300 custom built fly rod is any better than the same thing factory built for $200 (especially when it comes with a better warranty). I'd have to be honest to say that the organization seems to fall short on this one. However, they do act as some authority that helps a small time guy like myself have some credibility vs. just a fly-by-night dude building fishin' poles! However, the big thing that this organization does is help members connect with each other, share information, and help the newbs that join up to spread and advance the activity of custom (fishing) rod building. They hold a few events around the country each year as well. In many respects, the ACA is coming back to mind as well.
It seems the guys at Rareclownfish.com were ready to plunge headfirst without bothering to check the depth of the pool. There's a LOT of similar organizations trying to acheive similar goals in other fields and a lot of good ideas that can be borrowed and built on.
Time for bed
Matt
MimicTang
In Memoriam
I only bought up a middleman because some people might chew 50 CBs at the hands of a dishonest or stupid" LFS employee/owner. If he left the bag in the cold there's a chance he's gonna claim it was DOA.
Ebay is getting to greedy with their fees. Lots of small stops have closed. Maybe it works for coral, and rare fish but not the average oscellaris.
I do like the swap idea and with 2-6 huge metro areas near me I would have larger demand then perhaps some midwest breeders would. Least I hope so.
Ebay is getting to greedy with their fees. Lots of small stops have closed. Maybe it works for coral, and rare fish but not the average oscellaris.
I do like the swap idea and with 2-6 huge metro areas near me I would have larger demand then perhaps some midwest breeders would. Least I hope so.
mwp
In Memoriam
Just to answer some of your Points Mimic.
1. Breeders should set their own DOA policies...fish are unusual in that they don't get covered by any shipping insurances. What a coalition like the one proposed can do is suggest guidelines for "best practices" and buyer's know what the seller is offering before there's a purchase. FWIW, I shipped MANY orchids in my day...very rarely did anything get cooked or frozen and when it did I was definitely in a position to help out. I had ONE complaint out of probably 1000+ transactions from someone who simply didn't KNOW what they were talking about...you'll get those. Of course, I KNOW I'm really not in a good position to ship fish at the moment, so of course I'm trying to avoid it..I'd be one of those "local only" folk! My last thought, barring the careless or dishonest shop owner, the rest of the good people in the world are only really going to complain if there actually IS a problem...that's part of selling stuff!
2. You're pretty much right...it's probably pretty tough to generate interest in Ocellaris on eBay. Then again, pairs of CB misbarred Onyx percs recently went for $110 a pop. It's the market at it's rawest.
3. Being able to swap fish with neighboring breeders, or for small businesses to gain access to private hobby breeders, it certainly can help. I consider that while I ran a Cichlid Hatchery, we DIDN'T only sell fish we raised...we brought in fish from farms and other breeders around the country....we bred what we wanted to (and couldn't get elsewhere). I feel it was a pretty successful strategy...a small hatchery can offer 200 varieties of quality fish, while only raising the rarest or most profitable on site.
4. I'd rather pay a membership fee to support an organization. Having to channel all sales through the website to generate the income the organization needs to exist is way more hassel than it's worth, not to mention all the business that can easily circumvent the system.
FWIW,
Matt
1. Breeders should set their own DOA policies...fish are unusual in that they don't get covered by any shipping insurances. What a coalition like the one proposed can do is suggest guidelines for "best practices" and buyer's know what the seller is offering before there's a purchase. FWIW, I shipped MANY orchids in my day...very rarely did anything get cooked or frozen and when it did I was definitely in a position to help out. I had ONE complaint out of probably 1000+ transactions from someone who simply didn't KNOW what they were talking about...you'll get those. Of course, I KNOW I'm really not in a good position to ship fish at the moment, so of course I'm trying to avoid it..I'd be one of those "local only" folk! My last thought, barring the careless or dishonest shop owner, the rest of the good people in the world are only really going to complain if there actually IS a problem...that's part of selling stuff!
2. You're pretty much right...it's probably pretty tough to generate interest in Ocellaris on eBay. Then again, pairs of CB misbarred Onyx percs recently went for $110 a pop. It's the market at it's rawest.
3. Being able to swap fish with neighboring breeders, or for small businesses to gain access to private hobby breeders, it certainly can help. I consider that while I ran a Cichlid Hatchery, we DIDN'T only sell fish we raised...we brought in fish from farms and other breeders around the country....we bred what we wanted to (and couldn't get elsewhere). I feel it was a pretty successful strategy...a small hatchery can offer 200 varieties of quality fish, while only raising the rarest or most profitable on site.
4. I'd rather pay a membership fee to support an organization. Having to channel all sales through the website to generate the income the organization needs to exist is way more hassel than it's worth, not to mention all the business that can easily circumvent the system.
FWIW,
Matt
mwp
In Memoriam
To recap my many ramblings, in no particular order.
1. Organization Facilitates Connections between ALL levels...wholesalers, retailers, private individuals and breeders at all levels (whether it be C-Quest or me...whatever...)
2. Organization promotes CB fish (not to be confused with "tank reared or ocean pen raised, but CB fish as in bred in a tank, raised in a tank, sold from a tank) and the benefits to all parties from the largest distributors to the general public. Of course, we'd have to rethink this anyway as I'd certainly prefer pond-bred and raised Maculosus Angelfish over something net caught on a reef...
3. Organization provides open repository of CB Marine Ornamental breeding projects/efforts/successes/failures
4. Organization promotes the activity of breeding marine ornamentals to all parties through the open dispersal of knowledge as well as providing help in locating the basic necessities of the activity (i.e. perhaps a culture swap program, commercial sponsors of equipment / cultures etc..)
5. Organization provides standards, best practices, a basic guidelines for parties involved (i.e. see #2...the organization could set out to define what exactly "captive bred", "tank raised" and much of the jargon floating around actually means...i.e. much like the FDA has a strict definition of what "Organic" foods actually are).
6. Organization provides certification of individual breeders and businesses that adhere to a certain level of quality/standard/knowledge or something...
Just some ideas...probably not going to think about this again for a while...sorry to monopolize the thread so much up to this point!
Matt
1. Organization Facilitates Connections between ALL levels...wholesalers, retailers, private individuals and breeders at all levels (whether it be C-Quest or me...whatever...)
2. Organization promotes CB fish (not to be confused with "tank reared or ocean pen raised, but CB fish as in bred in a tank, raised in a tank, sold from a tank) and the benefits to all parties from the largest distributors to the general public. Of course, we'd have to rethink this anyway as I'd certainly prefer pond-bred and raised Maculosus Angelfish over something net caught on a reef...
3. Organization provides open repository of CB Marine Ornamental breeding projects/efforts/successes/failures
4. Organization promotes the activity of breeding marine ornamentals to all parties through the open dispersal of knowledge as well as providing help in locating the basic necessities of the activity (i.e. perhaps a culture swap program, commercial sponsors of equipment / cultures etc..)
5. Organization provides standards, best practices, a basic guidelines for parties involved (i.e. see #2...the organization could set out to define what exactly "captive bred", "tank raised" and much of the jargon floating around actually means...i.e. much like the FDA has a strict definition of what "Organic" foods actually are).
6. Organization provides certification of individual breeders and businesses that adhere to a certain level of quality/standard/knowledge or something...
Just some ideas...probably not going to think about this again for a while...sorry to monopolize the thread so much up to this point!
Matt
MimicTang
In Memoriam
1) Yeah I had meant we should setup some best practices for LFSs because their biggest concern is the dollar. If they could sell plastic flowing nemos for $30 bucks ( costing $5) they would. They're there to make a buck plain an simple. Yes they love the hobby but they have bills to pay and mortgages etc..
learning how to shipping fish would be nice too. Not ready yet but no clue how they get there alive, and where do you get the foam boxes? how thick shoudl the box be etc... or does it even matter?
2) Ebay is good for high margin items.
3) Swap local heck if I need 50 of something and you got them swim in your house, I'll send you the shipping supplies with a paid tracking label. I'd rather the clowns where TR then WC. They do you no good sitting in your basement. Better I offer you something for them having them sit there eating your food.
4) Perhaps breeders who are comfortable shipping could help out in a outta stock situation too. If David M has a surplus and someone had a crash or problem, they can continue to be a source for the LFS rather then the LFS going to the WC wholesaler. Maybe if we "stick together" LiveAquaria, Marine depot, and wholesalers will all buy form us?
I'd be willing to also donate to research efforts of other breeders, rather then undertaking my own identical project. Provided you dont go on a sudden vacation =)
learning how to shipping fish would be nice too. Not ready yet but no clue how they get there alive, and where do you get the foam boxes? how thick shoudl the box be etc... or does it even matter?
2) Ebay is good for high margin items.
3) Swap local heck if I need 50 of something and you got them swim in your house, I'll send you the shipping supplies with a paid tracking label. I'd rather the clowns where TR then WC. They do you no good sitting in your basement. Better I offer you something for them having them sit there eating your food.
4) Perhaps breeders who are comfortable shipping could help out in a outta stock situation too. If David M has a surplus and someone had a crash or problem, they can continue to be a source for the LFS rather then the LFS going to the WC wholesaler. Maybe if we "stick together" LiveAquaria, Marine depot, and wholesalers will all buy form us?
I'd be willing to also donate to research efforts of other breeders, rather then undertaking my own identical project. Provided you dont go on a sudden vacation =)
All I am talking about is a phone book of sorts, just a list of breeders with contact information. It would just be a place where stores or individuals can find us 
David, what you described would be a great asset to the breeders, wholesalers, retailers, and end users. When I get to the point of breeding, I would certainly want to join.
What Matt and Mimic are discussing sounds ALOT like a co-op. Many farming communities do something very similar to what you are describing.
Imagine this...
The way I have seen them work in farming communities is that the co-op buys from the farmers, and then sells on the market when the price is high. This allows the farmers to keep money coming in when they need it, but it kind of buffers them so that they're not being forces to sell when the market is low. It also helps to stabilize prices, and as we all know, 20 farmers together will get a better price for their crops than 20 farmers trying to sell individually. Because the co-op is owned by the farmers, they usually do some kind of profit sharing at the end of the year after they have covered overhead and expenses.
One idea, if you looked at it with respect to our community.. The RC Breeder Co-op would essentially be a wholesale distributor. The agreement would be that members sell to the co-op and the co-op sells to the customers. The advantage is that the breeders get a better price, and in theory the customers get a better product and a more guaranteed supply. Another advantage to the breeders is that they have access to much better markets, and more importantly stronger information as to what the current supply and demand are. This would allow the breeder to make better use of available tank space. Keep in mind that the co-op is owned by the breeders, so the profit from it comes back to them at the end of the year.
Consider this:
Grouped together our selling power is much stronger than it is apart. For instance, the co-op might be able to offer every single species that is currently being breed in captivity, wheras none of us could possibly do that on our own. You might even say that our buying power is much much stronger together than it is apart. It would be kind of like a permanent group buy situation. How much of a discount do you think we would get if we all bought our supplies together in quantity. Salt alone would probably cost half as much, maybe even less.
As an example. Take Matt. He doesn't have the space to raise Nemo en masse. David has said multiple times though that you really should have nemo if you even want the LFS to talk to you. With a co-op scenario, Matt no longer has to worry, he can focus on the rare and hard to raise species, but he still takes advantage of someone else who is raising nemo. Both breeders benefit.
It's a very very interesting idea, but IMO the only way to do it would be to have someone with a tremendous amount of wholesale experience running the co-op.
What Matt and Mimic are discussing sounds ALOT like a co-op. Many farming communities do something very similar to what you are describing.
Imagine this...
The way I have seen them work in farming communities is that the co-op buys from the farmers, and then sells on the market when the price is high. This allows the farmers to keep money coming in when they need it, but it kind of buffers them so that they're not being forces to sell when the market is low. It also helps to stabilize prices, and as we all know, 20 farmers together will get a better price for their crops than 20 farmers trying to sell individually. Because the co-op is owned by the farmers, they usually do some kind of profit sharing at the end of the year after they have covered overhead and expenses.
One idea, if you looked at it with respect to our community.. The RC Breeder Co-op would essentially be a wholesale distributor. The agreement would be that members sell to the co-op and the co-op sells to the customers. The advantage is that the breeders get a better price, and in theory the customers get a better product and a more guaranteed supply. Another advantage to the breeders is that they have access to much better markets, and more importantly stronger information as to what the current supply and demand are. This would allow the breeder to make better use of available tank space. Keep in mind that the co-op is owned by the breeders, so the profit from it comes back to them at the end of the year.
Consider this:
Grouped together our selling power is much stronger than it is apart. For instance, the co-op might be able to offer every single species that is currently being breed in captivity, wheras none of us could possibly do that on our own. You might even say that our buying power is much much stronger together than it is apart. It would be kind of like a permanent group buy situation. How much of a discount do you think we would get if we all bought our supplies together in quantity. Salt alone would probably cost half as much, maybe even less.
As an example. Take Matt. He doesn't have the space to raise Nemo en masse. David has said multiple times though that you really should have nemo if you even want the LFS to talk to you. With a co-op scenario, Matt no longer has to worry, he can focus on the rare and hard to raise species, but he still takes advantage of someone else who is raising nemo. Both breeders benefit.
It's a very very interesting idea, but IMO the only way to do it would be to have someone with a tremendous amount of wholesale experience running the co-op.
David M
New member
No co-op, imagine the facility that holds & distributes the fish??? Then you put ALL the fish at risk by placing them together. God forbid one of us has an unnoticed disease outbreak, you just wiped out evey fish produced by all of us combined. Keep it simple, let each business do it's own thing. Just create a centralized directory so buyers can find the sources they are loking for. It's far more efficient than each of us trying to advertise independently.
You're right, the kind of facility you need would be essentially the same as most of the wholesalers. You would definitely want to take some serious precautions in the way you set it up, but if done right, you can minimize the risks. Especially so because a co-op owned by the breeders would presumably be a helluva lot more careful than your typical wholesaler.
FTR - I agree with you. Keep it simple. What I mentioned is probably 1000 times more difficult than an online directory. I brought it up, because it was what Mimic and Matt were describing.
You have to admit, it is an interesting idea though...
FTR - I agree with you. Keep it simple. What I mentioned is probably 1000 times more difficult than an online directory. I brought it up, because it was what Mimic and Matt were describing.
You have to admit, it is an interesting idea though...
ediaz
Active member
If you need help count me in, but keep in mind , people is going to be in RC anyways, same reason BR is "dead" same reason I have not been at rareclownfish for about a month now, not enough action.
I am not accountant but if you sell something even if you did not make any money or your expenses are greater than the profit/revenue you have to report no matter what, those guys don't '' around.
The other day I went to a LFS to deliver 4 neon dottys for 15 each, i miss my wholesaler route and had to buy salt at the store, the salt was 15 also, I got 4 bags, i paid for the salt and invoiced them for the fish when a trade would have been easier and more convinient for them.
Ed
I am not accountant but if you sell something even if you did not make any money or your expenses are greater than the profit/revenue you have to report no matter what, those guys don't '' around.
The other day I went to a LFS to deliver 4 neon dottys for 15 each, i miss my wholesaler route and had to buy salt at the store, the salt was 15 also, I got 4 bags, i paid for the salt and invoiced them for the fish when a trade would have been easier and more convinient for them.
Ed
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