Any interest in organizing?
- Thread starter David M
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Now that I see there is a bit of interest in the idea I will 'out' myself. I have posted a couple of times looking for pairs of fish. I would prefer CB. DavidM was nice enough to post saying he sells them and I followed that lead. This lead me to the idea of having a national list of breeders out there and what they have to offer. Bottom line is it would be much easier for me (in the DC area) to get fish locally or at least semi-locally than to have to order from DavidM(CA). I am still going to order from you David 
Anyway, to give you a little of my background. I am a software engineer working for Lockheed Martin in the private sector. I have done Web Development for the last several years on internal LANS. The application(Site) will be coded in ASP.net because that is what I am most familar with. I will host it and rent the domain name. Other than that I am not putting any money into it at first. I will tell you that my artisitc ability is somewhat limited, so if anyone has any input I would be happy to hear suggestions/demos(ie banners,etc).
The site will be free for all to use, very similar to RC a few years ago. If operating costs go up I will explore sponsorship(I doubt this) or simply ask for donations. For the forseeable future the only costs involved is the domain name, which I am happy to buy. I am able to host the application at my home and bandwidth is not an issue unless this turns in to another RC (very doubtful).
That leads us to the road forward. I will be posting a list of fields (data we need to maintain) in near future(for peer review) and then will get started on the application. I am not interested in being the middleman/wholesaler/etc. I want absolutely no liability in the situation, nor will I have any. I imagine the site being the conduit to match buyers and sellers. So if you have any ideas, please post them.
I also imagine having the site list avenues for Phyto/Zoo plankton sources. Not so much the commercial guys, but the hobbyists that can provide needed rotifers after a crash.
Also, if anyone has a ideas on a domain name (www.xyz.com) let me know. I have a few in mind, but suggestions are always welcome.
More to come in the future.
Anyway, to give you a little of my background. I am a software engineer working for Lockheed Martin in the private sector. I have done Web Development for the last several years on internal LANS. The application(Site) will be coded in ASP.net because that is what I am most familar with. I will host it and rent the domain name. Other than that I am not putting any money into it at first. I will tell you that my artisitc ability is somewhat limited, so if anyone has any input I would be happy to hear suggestions/demos(ie banners,etc).
The site will be free for all to use, very similar to RC a few years ago. If operating costs go up I will explore sponsorship(I doubt this) or simply ask for donations. For the forseeable future the only costs involved is the domain name, which I am happy to buy. I am able to host the application at my home and bandwidth is not an issue unless this turns in to another RC (very doubtful).
That leads us to the road forward. I will be posting a list of fields (data we need to maintain) in near future(for peer review) and then will get started on the application. I am not interested in being the middleman/wholesaler/etc. I want absolutely no liability in the situation, nor will I have any. I imagine the site being the conduit to match buyers and sellers. So if you have any ideas, please post them.
I also imagine having the site list avenues for Phyto/Zoo plankton sources. Not so much the commercial guys, but the hobbyists that can provide needed rotifers after a crash.
Also, if anyone has a ideas on a domain name (www.xyz.com) let me know. I have a few in mind, but suggestions are always welcome.
More to come in the future.
MimicTang
In Memoriam
LOL take fin farms RC name =)
I like what Cuervo said more thou. As for David M's concern you would being sending your fish to the LFS not to someone else. Its all smoke and mirrors. When you buy aquaculture coral from LiveAquaria and fish. The fish come from CA and the coral from Wisconsin. Same idea you pay once for shipping.
Same idea works with supplies. Far easier to buy in bulk and have it dropshipped to one person in 1 state then having you buy it from the LFS. When you bought your salt from the LFS Matt its possible he made profit off that too.
Small scale breeders I can see going to the LFS or online for stuff. However you larger ones should be doing all your supplies wholesale.
I like what Cuervo said more thou. As for David M's concern you would being sending your fish to the LFS not to someone else. Its all smoke and mirrors. When you buy aquaculture coral from LiveAquaria and fish. The fish come from CA and the coral from Wisconsin. Same idea you pay once for shipping.
Same idea works with supplies. Far easier to buy in bulk and have it dropshipped to one person in 1 state then having you buy it from the LFS. When you bought your salt from the LFS Matt its possible he made profit off that too.
Small scale breeders I can see going to the LFS or online for stuff. However you larger ones should be doing all your supplies wholesale.
mwp
In Memoriam
Scott, I would definitely look at Frags.org and how it's set up...it's VERY similar to the type of service you're suggesting, only for fish instead of coral frags.
I DO feel that we need an updated one-stop-shop of sorts when it comes to breeding RESOURCES. The fact that the Breeder's Registry isn't being maintained with new reports more than bums me out, especially since I took the time to fill out the Microsoft Word document and send it back! There are SO MANY MORE species being bred than what it shows...
Matt
I DO feel that we need an updated one-stop-shop of sorts when it comes to breeding RESOURCES. The fact that the Breeder's Registry isn't being maintained with new reports more than bums me out, especially since I took the time to fill out the Microsoft Word document and send it back! There are SO MANY MORE species being bred than what it shows...
Matt
What I talked about is an pretty hardcore, serious endeavor. It would be a really huge thing to try and organise and even think of getting off the ground. On top of that, it would take some serious number crunching to even determine if it could work.
Now then, I've seen quite a few group buys on RC, for all kinds of different items. That's something that's not too hard to organise, and can be fairly beneficial. It still takes legwork though. For the more expensive consumables it might be very worthwhile to try and do a group buy for the breeder's community.. I wonder what the price is on a pallet of buckets of Salt for example.
MimicTang
In Memoriam
Resellers get it typical for 60% of what they sell it for. However with a website you might be get to considerable less from the manufactuer. They would want you to say you use say for example IO exclusively. Free advertizing for them, deep discounted product for you.
I dont know if you'd get sponsorship per say. Maybe they'd pay for advertizing though. For aquaticeco, we are they're customer base be it a small or large part.
I dont know if you'd get sponsorship per say. Maybe they'd pay for advertizing though. For aquaticeco, we are they're customer base be it a small or large part.
Matt,
Initially I am proposing something similar to Frags.org. It can be expanded to a reference site if the need arises. As far as sponsorship, well that depends. Again I am not looking to make money out of this or lose, it is more for exposure. I think you can understand that with your background. Money changes my end of things and requires much more red tape.
It would be nice if the breeders registry would come back to life. we could possibly build to that level eventually, but I don't know what type of scientific review goes on there.
More input to come.
Please give input on the basic idea that has been proposed.
Thanks
Scott
Initially I am proposing something similar to Frags.org. It can be expanded to a reference site if the need arises. As far as sponsorship, well that depends. Again I am not looking to make money out of this or lose, it is more for exposure. I think you can understand that with your background. Money changes my end of things and requires much more red tape.
It would be nice if the breeders registry would come back to life. we could possibly build to that level eventually, but I don't know what type of scientific review goes on there.
More input to come.
Please give input on the basic idea that has been proposed.
Thanks
Scott
mwp
In Memoriam
Scott, I'm all for a "Marine Ornamental Breeder's Exchange". Would this be limited to FISH ONLY, or INVERTS too (i.e. shrimps, crabs, slugs and snails)? What about Macro-Algae (another item that isn't covered at Frags.org)? Of course, an exchange for cultures would be HIGHLY beneficial (I've been occasionally getting cultures out to various folks who need it already).
One thing that comes to mind that would be helpful is a "first-come first-served waiting list". I.e. a place where folks can enter themselves in to be on a waiting list for a particular item a breeder is offering IF it's not available at the current moment (i.e. I tried to get a waiting list going for SS Rotifers, but it became rather chaotic, having it done thorugh a website would be helpful).
Matt
One thing that comes to mind that would be helpful is a "first-come first-served waiting list". I.e. a place where folks can enter themselves in to be on a waiting list for a particular item a breeder is offering IF it's not available at the current moment (i.e. I tried to get a waiting list going for SS Rotifers, but it became rather chaotic, having it done thorugh a website would be helpful).
Matt
FishGuttz
New member
Manhattanreefs.com does group buys almost on a weekly basis, and they have frag swaps to save money on corals/fish. We all live in NYC so it works very easily, usually retailer offers group discount or at least one shipping cost. (actually I've never gone to one) I don't know how this could work at RC because almost all of the continents are represented here! But maybe if everyone ordered salt (for example) at the same time from the same supplier they might offer discounts.
David M
New member
FWIW you guys are losing me here. I completely understand your interest in an "exchage" site were hobbyists could access fish & supplies, but ( not to be arrogant here) some of us are a little past that. Edgar, Kathy, myself and others are primarily concerned about selling fish and I don't mean 2 at a time to hobbyists. What we would be looking for is exposure to retailers, not hobbyists. We have our wholesale supply accounts set up and are not really concerned about that part of it. Speaking for myself I am interested in selling directly to retailers in lots of 25-50 fish at a pop.
I do understand your priorities and hope that a compromise can be reached that benefits all breeders at every level.
The truth is that online vendor pricing is pretty competetive with wholesale, sometimes less. Has to do with volume, often a vendor like Marine Depot can blow the shorts off the wholesalers on drygoods. I have shipped out many animals and items all over the country but in the end there is no real savings, I don't get the price breaks and shipping discounts those big guys get. The only real difference is I hand pick the livestock and people are happy about that part of it. Cost is about the same in the end. For example you can buy Chemi-Pure and Poly-Filters for way less online that you'd pay at at a wholesaler. As for pooling orders on salt and the like I'd think the shipping/ distribution would cost far more than any savings found by buying in bulk. A $36 case of salt at the lfs is $28 at the wholesaler, can you ship it for $8??And of course it will take someones time and effort to do it.
Well just my thoughts, lets try to unite rather than fragment breeders at all levels if possible.
I do understand your priorities and hope that a compromise can be reached that benefits all breeders at every level.
The truth is that online vendor pricing is pretty competetive with wholesale, sometimes less. Has to do with volume, often a vendor like Marine Depot can blow the shorts off the wholesalers on drygoods. I have shipped out many animals and items all over the country but in the end there is no real savings, I don't get the price breaks and shipping discounts those big guys get. The only real difference is I hand pick the livestock and people are happy about that part of it. Cost is about the same in the end. For example you can buy Chemi-Pure and Poly-Filters for way less online that you'd pay at at a wholesaler. As for pooling orders on salt and the like I'd think the shipping/ distribution would cost far more than any savings found by buying in bulk. A $36 case of salt at the lfs is $28 at the wholesaler, can you ship it for $8??And of course it will take someones time and effort to do it.
Well just my thoughts, lets try to unite rather than fragment breeders at all levels if possible.
mwp
In Memoriam
David, I think the way to bring retailers / lfs's to the table is by getting the online listing service going, and then advertising that service to retailers through trade mags etc. I suspect there are many more marine breeders out there that might only have a handful of fish to sell at a time, like myself.
Anyway, trade mag advertising (or advertising of the site in general) can be paid through sponsorships, membership fees, listing fees or whatever. Of course, there is also ONLINE marketing to consider, but the main way to get to the LFS's other than cold calling is through trade rags. Having one certalized site for LFS's to go to and look through makes sense, and the more breeders you can get on there at all levels, the greater variety and availability of fish the site has as a whole.
FWIW,
Matt
Anyway, trade mag advertising (or advertising of the site in general) can be paid through sponsorships, membership fees, listing fees or whatever. Of course, there is also ONLINE marketing to consider, but the main way to get to the LFS's other than cold calling is through trade rags. Having one certalized site for LFS's to go to and look through makes sense, and the more breeders you can get on there at all levels, the greater variety and availability of fish the site has as a whole.
FWIW,
Matt
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8759575#post8759575 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by David M
FWIW you guys are losing me here. I completely understand your interest in an "exchage" site were hobbyists could access fish & supplies, but ( not to be arrogant here) some of us are a little past that. Edgar, Kathy, myself and others are primarily concerned about selling fish and I don't mean 2 at a time to hobbyists. What we would be looking for is exposure to retailers, not hobbyists. We have our wholesale supply accounts set up and are not really concerned about that part of it. Speaking for myself I am interested in selling directly to retailers in lots of 25-50 fish at a pop.
I do understand your priorities and hope that a compromise can be reached that benefits all breeders at every level.
The truth is that online vendor pricing is pretty competetive with wholesale, sometimes less. Has to do with volume, often a vendor like Marine Depot can blow the shorts off the wholesalers on drygoods. I have shipped out many animals and items all over the country but in the end there is no real savings, I don't get the price breaks and shipping discounts those big guys get. The only real difference is I hand pick the livestock and people are happy about that part of it. Cost is about the same in the end. For example you can buy Chemi-Pure and Poly-Filters for way less online that you'd pay at at a wholesaler. As for pooling orders on salt and the like I'd think the shipping/ distribution would cost far more than any savings found by buying in bulk. A $36 case of salt at the lfs is $28 at the wholesaler, can you ship it for $8??And of course it will take someones time and effort to do it.
Well just my thoughts, lets try to unite rather than fragment breeders at all levels if possible.
Then you should give more thought to what I was talking about with regards to a co-op.
You, Matt, Kathy, and Ed, represent 4 completely different markets. Each of you has connections into your local market, and perhaps have already saturated it with the fish that you breed. You could work together to gain access to each others markets without stepping on each others toes. If organised properly, you could in theory expand each other's markets, because you could each focus on a few specific breeds, and then agree to take a share of the profits for acting as a sales rep for each other.
Matt doesn't have room to breed Oscellaris, instead he is focusing on the Black Onyx and GBB. As you have said, it's hard to get the LFS to even look at you if you don't have Nemo. What if you supplied the Nemo's for his market, and he supplied the GBB's and Black Onyx for your market? All of a sudden both of your markets have expanded.
A website that acts as a directory would be nice, and it could act as a conduit for establishing new markets and relationships for breeders. It could also act as a way for retailers to force breeders to bid against each other, and could actually end up wiping the small guys out completely. It may end up being a double edged sword.
Just something to consider.
**Edit**
In addition to this.. wholesale price is based on volume. I guarantee PetCo's wholesale price on salt is less than any LFS's wholesale price. If at the same time, the four of you combined your orders you might be able to get a better discount that might make it worth shipping.
That's the kind of thing I was talking about earlier when I mentioned Co-op.
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mwp
In Memoriam
Cuervo, the idea of a Co-op is just more organized...if I REALLY wanted Ocellaris to help get my foot in the door of some shops, I'd try to contact other folks like Kathy and purchase some from her to resell or maybe make a trade between the two of us. That's more or less how it's done in the FW side of the rarer stuff....either that or you're striking out on your own. The truth here in Chicago is that I have PLENTY of INTEREST from the LFS's...the problem I have is that I don't want to an entire batch of 20 GBG's to one LFS at $10 a shot...it takes too much out of my own pocket. It may be a different story when I have boatloads of Onyx Percula, and I know I have the shops willing to pay a fair price for them, but when I have batches of 3 or 6 make it, the only way to justify all the effort in rearing them is to sell at a retail level to other hobbysits (ala frags.org).
Co-Op just sounds too much like someone managing a bunch of smaller breeders, which is fine I guess, except that I don't want ot be told what I can and cannot do with the fish I raise
Matt
Co-Op just sounds too much like someone managing a bunch of smaller breeders, which is fine I guess, except that I don't want ot be told what I can and cannot do with the fish I raise
Matt
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