Any Millepora keepers AND Algae Turf Scrubbers?

[REEF SMAC]

That's a good idea. Thanks, I'll do that!

BTW - my salinity stays bang on 1.025. And my temp averages about 8.3 at the moment, and throughout the day may swing as much a 1/2 a degree up or down from that. I use the Apex season table function that has a temp low of 75 in January and a high of 80.5 in August. I keep my tank about 2 degrees warmer than that season table. So my range - over the course of a year - is 77 to 82.5 then back to 77.

That's kinda what I meant.
Maybe your buddy runs his a 1.026? And his 1.026 might read 1.030 on your refractometer or whatever you are using. Just something else to check.

Not sure what you meant by 8.3 temp average...? 80.3..?

I had a heater controller once that read 78 on the digital reading but for some reason my chiller was constanly running. Checked the temp with another thermometer and found out my water was really 84 with the heater still on.

Anyway hope you can get it figured out.

 

[scolley]

Sorry about that! Meant 80.3!

I do not trust the temp on my chiller AT ALL. I use the Apex to turn the chiller on/off, not the other way around. But I don't trust the Apex either frankly. I've got years of f/w planted experience that taught me not to trust thermometers either. Especially digital ones, where decimal precision causes people to confuse that with accuracy. Same problem seems to be happening with people's perception of the new Hanna checkers, BTW. But that's another topic...

I've got a glass thermometer that - years ago - I learned to be accurate and reliable, cross referenced against multiple sources. That's what I calibrate everything with. So I'm pretty sure my 80.3 is dramatically close to 80.3. Or at least - I suspect - it's a lot closer than the temps of the average poster on RC.

 

[scolley]

SALINITY however is a bit tougher, as my refractometer is a POS. And none of them are any better than their calibration solution. That too is a rabbit hole not worth running down here... other than the point that with my refractometer, it would be worth checking both my - and my buddy's - water.

:thumbsup: Thanks!

 

[scolley]

PS - I moved the mili last night, between two other SPS with insane PE. It was higher (more light), and more random, less direct flow.

No change after 24 hours. No surprise. Lets see what the next couple of weeks bring.

In the interim I'll test my bud's water, in case that provides insight.

 

[Thatgrimguy]

Could very well be photo inhibition. What optics are you using?

 

[6Speed]

Pics of your LED fixture? It sounds really nice.

 

[scolley]

Could very well be photo inhibition. What optics are you using?

Astute observation. Thank you. This would not be the first time an LED advocate said, "Wow! They don't look that bright... "

My optics are 90 degrees. I can go dig up my records of PAR at that depth under these lights, but that invites the discussion of PAR meters under registering much of LED royal blue light. So down an easier path...

The mili in question was one inch or two LOWER than a pocillipira - right behind and more directly under the light. That coral has great PE and growth. Plus I've got other pollicipora that are a good 6" higher, and more directly under the light. Those are going BS with PE.

So, that said... Should I still worry about photo inhibition? Or is the problem elsewhere?

Thanks.

 

[scolley]

This post is completely OT, and an indulgence in OP prerogative.

For those interested in the OP, PLEASE skip to the next post...

Pics of your LED fixture? It sounds really nice.

Glad you asked.

I've got a major write up (many, many pages) on how I assembled this thing. But I've not posted it because LED's are coming so far, so quickly, I'm not sure it would be of any value to anyone. 18 months ago this was a big deal. Now, not so much.

My primary goal was to create a light that - as much as reasonably possible - looked like a commercial fixture. The biggest issues were - IMO - making all connections as professional as possible, hiding all wiring, and overall giving the fixure a "finished" look. These are some humble pics...

First, a pic with the fixture over the tank.

Yes, when I laid this new aquascape out, I decided to make it leaning left (higher growth, more SPS) on the left side, so the tank is aligned to be higher light on the left.

A better pic of the fixture itself at normal viewing angles.

And from the side and above.

 

[Thatgrimguy]

Light kit looks great! You accomplished your goal. Looks pro!

It could very well be a case of too much light. I had some trouble with a Acro that was furry as hell when I got it, but had gotten to a point where it wasn't showing any PE. I moved it to my frag tank planning on selling it cheap and moving on. In the frag tank which has considerably less light it opened back up and is looking great. The acro in question was sitting right next to a bunch of others that are all doing well. In fact, you can see where the rock is white in the first pic from me removing it. It was right next to that green slimer.


I can't tell you for sure, but it is reasonable to believe so, at least as reasonable as the flow question.

 

[scolley]

Light kit looks great! You accomplished your goal. Looks pro!

Thank you very much. (The OP takes a bow... ) Doesn't look like much, but not including design time, I figure that took around 40 hours work, though a good 1/2 of that was drilling and tapping various holes in the heat sink.

It could very well be a case of too much light.

Well the place if moved I to is a few inches higher, and more directly under the light. So I'll let it ride, watching for bleaching.

However, after a couple of days of higher light, it's coloring up. Previously it looked bleached under the full bank of lights. Only at the end of the day - in the last 30 minutes when only the Royal Blues are running - did is show any color. That's how I knew it wasn't dead. It really looked bleached.

But now it's coloring up. So we'll see how it does over the next few weeks.

 

[scolley]

3 week update...

3 week update...

Well, I've come to the conclusion that there is no issue between an ATS and the PE of some Millepora, at least if you are running carbon.

My original milli is still showing no PE. It's in more light, less flow. And I've been using very limited amounts of KZ Amino Acid. Still no PE. However, about two weeks ago I go a new milli from Copps (multiple TOTM winner here on RC). And it's got solid PE. Here's the pic of the mother colony from Copps' recent frag sale thread. My frag has PE that's comparable to that.

FWIW I'm keeping my PO4 around 2-4 ppm. And am also running cabon - nothing fancy, just a cup of ROX in a bag in the sump.

The new milli frag with the good PE is very close to the location of the PE-less milli. Except that the new frag gets a bit less flow. But I don't think that means that the PE-less frag has too much flow, because when I turn the flow up, the new milli puts its polyps out even further. So if anything, I could be placing them both in more flow.

Bottom line, this new milli proves my ATS is not the problem. Not the other way around.

My friend with the other frag of my previously shaggy (when I got it), PE-less milli has no PE on his either. He bought an Orange spot filefish that ate the polyps off all his SPS. And he started a new, larger tank with his old coral. And got rid of the filefish. And now all his SPS - that I could see - appear to have done a nice job growing back their polyps. All of them EXCEPT his milli frag like mine. Go figure.

Bottom line - the ATS was not the problem with my milli. The new milli has been in the tank a couple of weeks, and it's PE keeps getting better. No idea what the problem is with the first one.

Thanks for the help folks! :thumbsup:
​

 

[Thatgrimguy]

Great news, and beautiful new coral! I'm sure your frag will look like that one day!

 

[scolley]

I'm sure your frag will look like that one day!

Thanks! Don't I wish that were true! LOL

 

[Big E]

I don't know if this was mentioned but have you tried blowing the problem coral with a baster to make sure it doesn't have acro flatworms? A frag can look bad for weeks before you see bite marks or other signs.

I'd do it outside the tank if you plan on doing this.

I would also see if you can inspect the frag underwater with a loop to make sure there aren't any bugs crawling on it. Sometimes it's easiest to look for pests when the lights first turn on.

 

[elegance coral]

Well, I've come to the conclusion that there is no issue between an ATS and the PE of some Millepora, at least if you are running carbon.

Bottom line, this new milli proves my ATS is not the problem. Not the other way around.

Bottom line - the ATS was not the problem with my milli.

​

With all due respect, and please don't take this the wrong way, but from the information in this thread, you do not have the evidence to draw that conclusion.

An animals sensitivity to an offensive substances or harsh environment, can vary greatly, even among animals we consider to be the same species.

Exposure time can be a HUGE influence on an animals reaction to an offensive substance, or a harsh environmental condition.

The fact that you added a new coral to a tank where another coral seems to be having problems, and the new coral doesn't show the same symptoms, is not evidence that the original coral is free from the exposure to harmful substances, or harsh environmental conditions.

It seems obvious to me that from the vary beginning of this thread, you suspected the ATS of influencing the negative effects you were seeing in your corals. Unless I missed it, you have not taken the ATS off line, cleaned out the sand and rock of rotting algae spores and algae fragments, and preformed a large water change. Until you have removed the ATS, and its influence on the system, you can not draw the conclusion that the ATS is free from fault. As long as you have poor growth and PE in your corals, and an ATS in the same system, you can not eliminate the ATS as the problem causing factor, or a contributing factor.

Again, I mean no disrespect, and I hope my post helps you and your corals in some way.
Peace
EC

 

[scolley]

I don't know if this was mentioned but have you tried blowing the problem coral with a baster to make sure it doesn't have acro flatworms? A frag can look bad for weeks before you see bite marks or other signs.

I'd do it outside the tank if you plan on doing this.

I don't think I did mention it, but I have done that. Didn't take it out of the tank though. :facepalm:

Fortunately nothing blew off it.

I would also see if you can inspect the frag underwater with a loop to make sure there aren't any bugs crawling on it. Sometimes it's easiest to look for pests when the lights first turn on.

It never occurred to me that a magnifying glass would work under water! But I guess it stands to reason it's just light traveling through a medium, be it gaseous or aqueous. I'll see if I can find a decent magnifying glass or loupe.

I'll do that and report back. Thanks for the tip!

 

[scolley]

REALLY long post. Sorry...

REALLY long post. Sorry...

...from the information in this thread, you do not have the evidence to draw that conclusion...

The fact that you added a new coral to a tank where another coral seems to be having problems, and the new coral doesn't show the same symptoms, is not evidence that the original coral is free from the exposure to harmful substances, or harsh environmental conditions.

In retrospect, IMO you are correct.

What it DOES prove is that some millepora do not appear to suffer from short term exposure to an ATS. Whether the same can be said for ALL millepora is an unknown.

Also duration of exposure has got to be examined. Though I suspect it is not an issue. Why? The negative reaction of my first mille was immediate, implying that whatever was wrong in my tank provoked an immediate reaction. That original mille came out of the vendor's bag extremely bushy. Hairy. But within a few hours in my tank there was no PE in evidence. This 2nd mille did not react that way. However it must be stated that I was not running carbon when I put the first one in the tank.

But IF the carbon made the difference, then something else is wrong too. Because I'm running the cabon now, one's happy, one's not.

It seems obvious to me that from the vary beginning of this thread, you suspected the ATS of influencing the negative effects you were seeing in your corals.

You're reading between the lines incorrectly there, however. I've never suspected the ATS, per se. Before I crashed the prior incarnation of this tank (long story, stupid operator error), the ATS was running and my SPS were thriving. In fact it was my distinct impression that it was the ATS that took my prior little nano from "SPS struggling" to "SPS thriving".

It's a new tank now, but many of the coral, rock, and sand are the same. And the ATS is the same light and algae mat as before.

The only reason started this thread, raising the question of the ATS being a factor at all, was because I was (and still am) at wit's end over what's up with this coral. As an inexperience SPS keeper, I could not figure out why this coral was so evidently unhappy in a tank with lots of other clearly happy SPS. Plus there does not appear to be a lot of history in this particular community of ATS use in SPS tanks.

Unless I missed it, you have not taken the ATS off line... Until you have removed the ATS, and its influence on the system, you can not draw the conclusion that the ATS is free from fault.

Agreed. And no, you did not miss it. I have not taken the ATS off-line. Nor am I likely to anytime soon. Too many corals thriving.

Plus, I know from experience that my Phosphates and Nitrates will spike. And it took too long to get this nice, mature algae mat cultivated, so I'm hesitant to lose that.

Unplugging the ATA would indeed be a GREAT experiment. And the results could provide a data point for future questions in ATS discussions.

There are two outcomes really. One, if ATS removal resulted in PE in the PE-less mille, then it would be strong evidence for detrimental effects from ATS's. But the other possibility is no change. In which case it would not have proven that the ATS was not a problem, only that - if it was - it was not the ONLY problem.

So an ATS-less trial has two possible outcomes. One, strongly indicating detrimental effects of an ATS. The other a pure waste of time. And since the latter means reduced water quality and a dead algae mat, I'm not inclined to try. Sorry.

With all due respect, and please don't take this the wrong way...

No offense taken! People do get testy here sometimes, don't they? Plus, for reasons I don't understand, ATS's seem to be lightning rods for heated, nasty discussions.

Well, you'll not get that from me. I'd like to get to the bottom of this. I'm just not willing to kill my algae mat to do it.