Any Millepora keepers AND Algae Turf Scrubbers?

[scolley]

This is my only milli. But I do have a tricolor within a few inches of it that should look a little bushy, and does not.

When I bought this it arrived bushy. And a local reefer got a bushy frag from the same shipment. His remained bushy, though he's got a much bigger, far more mature, healthy sps dominant tank.

So no, I've got no others. But whatever the problem is, its local.

Redbug inspections yield nothing. And my four other across are ok, so it should not be AEFW either. But its something local.

PS - one of the other across has issues, but since its an isolated problem I assume its a light/flow issue.

 

[waqas_01]

Thanks. So do your Millis have good PE? And what are your phosphates?

Thanks.

Yup good polyp extension. I have three different millis in the tank: sunset, neon green/yellow, and pink millepora. my phosphates are at zero with the API kit, but again for an sps tank I've learnt the test kits don't show the resolution we need.

 

[spsutopia]

Welcome to the sps world! I was having nutrient issues with my 125 sps tank back in November of last year. I decided to try an algae turf scrubber, ran it from early January until late March. I used a double sided PC lit scrubber. The problem with these scrubbers is that hair or turf algae produce growth inhibitors, not as severe or toxic as say Caulerpa, but irritants still the same. My sps reacted quite poorly to the ATS, even running carbon to absorb "green matter". Also algae absorb Carbon:Nitrogenhosphorous in a ratio 106:16:1 respectively(redfield ratio), I think that you with find your filtration to become nitrogen limited and see PO4 elevation in the coming months. Long story short PE goes first, with color soon to follow, just my experience. If you are intent on sticking by the ATS at least get a TLF reactor and throw some carbon in there! You have to export those compounds. Amino Acids also help significantly with PE and color.Best of luck

 

[dirtyBit]

Ok I'll play. Many of my sps don't like direct flow. They like strong indirect flow. Have you tried placing it somewhere else for a while to see if the polyps come out?

 

[scolley]

Welcome to the sps world! color.

Outstanding, very helpful, topical post. Thank You! :thumbsup:

I am traveling at present, and it may be a few days before I can post a decent reply. But will try...

Am very familiar with said ratio. I've spent years deep in the freshwater planted world. And I should mention that I've been running this ATS for about 11 months, and it absolutely improved my SPS growth significantly. But I was running a poor skimmer then, and carbon. Now I've got a much better skimmer with no carbon. So by your thinking, the ATS could be a negative, especially with me no longer running carbon.

I'd like to test your assertion about growth supressors. First by seeing if AE gets things over the hump. And if that does not work, putting carbon back in the loop.

And after that, the final test would be to shut down the ATS and observe.

So what AE do you reccomend?

Thanks.

 

[scolley]

I changed my mind about trying AE first THEN carbon if AE didn't help. So I started carbon today. I have been hoping to eliminate carbon with the ATS, given carbon's role in HITH disease. But this will be a interesting test.

I'll change nothing else for the next 2-3 weeks. If my milli starts letting those polyps out, I'll know it was carbon. If that doesn't work I'll try AE.

Would live to hear from someone such AE would work best for Molly's.

Oh BTW - in increased the photoperiod of the ATS to 18 hours a day plus changed my skimmers post-feeding off time from 8 hours to only 2, and within days my PO4 was down to 0.01 ppm on the Hanna.

 

[scolley]

OK, been running carbon for three weeks. No change in mili PE. So I suspect the problem is not some growth inhibitor put out by the ATS. That said, my SPS are all growing somewhat slowly.

So this week I'll start trying KZ amino acid.

If anyone out there has mill's with good PE and also have an ATS, I'd love to hear from you.

Thanks.

 

[Big E]

Ok I'll play. Many of my sps don't like direct flow. They like strong indirect flow. Have you tried placing it somewhere else for a while to see if the polyps come out?

I agree.................move the coral to a different spot. I think your chasing ghosts. It's possible it doesn't like the direct flow it's getting or just doesn't like that spot for a number of reasons.

If everything else is doing fine don't mess with your tank...........this is how people get in trouble. They start making a bunch of changes for no reason.

 

[6Speed]

I agree.................move the coral to a different spot. I think your chasing ghosts. It's possible it doesn't like the direct flow it's getting or just doesn't like that spot for a number of reasons.

If everything else is doing fine don't mess with your tank...........this is how people get in trouble. They start making a bunch of changes for no reason.

agree - direct flow may be the problem.

 

[Thatgrimguy]

Welcome to the sps world! I was having nutrient issues with my 125 sps tank back in November of last year. I decided to try an algae turf scrubber, ran it from early January until late March. I used a double sided PC lit scrubber. The problem with these scrubbers is that hair or turf algae produce growth inhibitors, not as severe or toxic as say Caulerpa, but irritants still the same. My sps reacted quite poorly to the ATS, even running carbon to absorb "green matter". Also algae absorb Carbon:Nitrogenhosphorous in a ratio 106:16:1 respectively(redfield ratio), I think that you with find your filtration to become nitrogen limited and see PO4 elevation in the coming months. Long story short PE goes first, with color soon to follow, just my experience. If you are intent on sticking by the ATS at least get a TLF reactor and throw some carbon in there! You have to export those compounds. Amino Acids also help significantly with PE and color.Best of luck

Produce some article that proves this... or even claims this.

 

[Thatgrimguy]

I have a couple Millis, an ATS and great extension. My phosphate runs .01 or undetectable at all times. I would look elsewhere than the ATS. Probably a function of either flow or a build up of heavy metals if you decided that because you have an ATS you should stop doing water changes.

www.photobucket.com/210g


The little frag that looks like a blue #1 hand is a milli frag that has about doubled in my tank. Still very furry!

 

[scolley]

Wow! Lot's of great feedback. Thanks folks! :thumbsup: Not sure where to begin on replies, but here's a start...

...or a build up of heavy metals if you decided that because you have an ATS you should stop doing water changes.

Nope. That's not it. I should have mentioned that while I have an ATS, I've not been drinking the kool-ade. I still do regular W/C's. Not sure of the percentage as it's automated, and I just fill up empty new salt tanks on a regular basis. But it's something around 30% a month.

I have a couple Millis, an ATS and great extension. My phosphate runs .01 or undetectable at all times. I would look elsewhere than the ATS. Probably a function of either flow...

Pics are worth a thousand words! Thank you for demonstrating CLEARLY that having an ATS does not exclude your ability to have good PE on millepora. Thanks for posting that!.

Hey, I have a 55 gallon mixed tank and my millis seem to be doing the best among the sps. I'm running an ATS, skimmer, carbon, and live rock in terms of filtration.

More evidence of the same. :thumbsup:

Produce some article that proves this... or even claims this.

Agreed. Though in truth, I suspect there is something to that claim. I spent years in F/W planted, and have witnessed what I believed to be dramatically diminished growth of F/W plants in the presence of significant "hair" and "thread" algaes. So I cannot prove it either, but I do strongly suspect that claim is not without merit.

agree - direct flow may be the problem.

I agree.................move the coral to a different spot.

...Many of my sps don't like direct flow. They like strong indirect flow.

It's beginning to sound like a pretty strong case for moving the coral. Honestly I thought millepora were supposed to LIKE strong, direct flow. But what you folks are saying seems to contradict that. Granted, my "direct" flow is a Vortec MP10, which is a bit less "direct" than many power heads. But it still may be a bit much.

So...

Before I try the Amino Acids (now paid for an in transit!), I'll move the mili to an area that I've got other SPS with good PE, and see what happens.

Thanks a mil' for all the support folks! Will post progress (or not).

 

[REEF SMAC]

I have no personal experience with the ATS part of your isssue but just wanted to throw somethings out to you, just for thought anyway.

I have several milles in my system and I have definately noticed that some just have a lot more PE than others no matter where they are in my tank.

Some even though they came from a colony that had massive PE in another tank, it took many months before they encrusted, and THEN they finally seemed to start to showing some PE in my system. Others showed it right away.

Are you sure this particular mille you are talking about is in fact a mille?
I have a few that nobody can seem to tell for sure if they are mille or prostrata. Everyone I ask gives me a different answer. The ones I suspect are prostrata, seem to fluctuate the most with the PE.

Does yours have night time PE? That seems to be a better indicator for me if in fact it's happy with its location.

 

[Thatgrimguy]

Agreed. Though in truth, I suspect there is something to that claim. I spent years in F/W planted, and have witnessed what I believed to be dramatically diminished growth of F/W plants in the presence of significant "hair" and "thread" algaes. So I cannot prove it either, but I do strongly suspect that claim is not without merit.

Well in the F/W case, they are competing for the same nutrients so it makes perfect sense. I imagine it would be for the same reason that ATS out compete macro algae in salt water, hair algae is super freaking efficient.

I made a diy frag rack out of egg crate about 6 months ago. For what ever reasons, it grows hair algae like mad, only place in my system. It's in a 40b that's plumbed into my main system. The corals on this rack grow with absolutely no regard to the hair algae.

 

[scolley]

I have no personal experience with the ATS part of your isssue but just wanted to throw somethings out to you...

Thanks for the help. Here's a little more info....

This is the coral I ordered. Actually I ordered two. Both arrived with CRAZY PE. Each one looked like Bigfoot. LOL!

One went in my tank. One went into the very mature SPS dominant tank of a local reef club buddy. His is flourishing. In heavy flow with major daytime PE.

Given my overall health - though slow growth - of my other SPS, it caused me to wonder what was wrong with my system.

I'm running LEE's, but so is my bud with the other frag. And frankly, I think my LED's are better. My pal runs a Ca RX, and I use 3 part dosing... Ca, Alk, Mg. Levels are Ca 445 ppm, dKH 8.2, Mg 1350 ppm, dosed continuously by Apex controlled peristaltic pumps for smooth, even levels. Very stable, little swing.

Everything is growing slowly. But growing. Good PE on all corals with polyps except are this (my only) impostors, and a single tri-color. Both look dead under daylight lighting. Under royal blue LEDs they both show nice coloration. But neither has ANY PE. The mili is in direct flow. The tri-color in strong indirect flow. On the same height within the tank I have multiple SPS with major PE. Since the light source is an LED array that runs the width of the tank, IMO the issue is not light.

Sorry for the long story, but it hopefully tells the whole story.

 

[scolley]

Realized I neglected to mention NO3 and PO4. In shirt, I can't measure NO3 with a Salifert kit, other than minor indications that - at times - it's above zero.

As for PO4, my new Hanna tester fluctuates between .01 and .08, depending on how many hours per day I run the ATS. Bottom line - the ATS works, and shifting between low phosphates and stupid-low phosphates is easily controllable by the hours per day I run the ATS.

 

[Big E]

I have no personal experience with the ATS part of your isssue but just wanted to throw somethings out to you, just for thought anyway.

I have several milles in my system and I have definately noticed that some just have a lot more PE than others no matter where they are in my tank.

Some even though they came from a colony that had massive PE in another tank, it took many months before they encrusted, and THEN they finally seemed to start to showing some PE in my system. Others showed it right away.

Are you sure this particular mille you are talking about is in fact a mille?
I have a few that nobody can seem to tell for sure if they are mille or prostrata. Everyone I ask gives me a different answer. The ones I suspect are prostrata, seem to fluctuate the most with the PE.

Does yours have night time PE? That seems to be a better indicator for me if in fact it's happy with its location.

Yup.........good post. I've got 8 different milli/prostratas & not one has the same polyp extension or growth speed.

 

[Thatgrimguy]

What do you mean "hours per day" that you run the ATS? Are you cutting the flow off to your ATS for part of each day?? and tell me more about your LEDs. Is it a DIY or a purchased unit? What brand, nanometer/kelvin, and how many of each LED are there?




Sent from my iPhone4s using Tapatalk

 

[REEF SMAC]

Thanks for the help. Here's a little more info....

This is the coral I ordered. Actually I ordered two. Both arrived with CRAZY PE. Each one looked like Bigfoot. LOL!

One went in my tank. One went into the very mature SPS dominant tank of a local reef club buddy. His is flourishing. In heavy flow with major daytime PE.

Given my overall health - though slow growth - of my other SPS, it caused me to wonder what was wrong with my system.

I'm running LEE's, but so is my bud with the other frag. And frankly, I think my LED's are better. My pal runs a Ca RX, and I use 3 part dosing... Ca, Alk, Mg. Levels are Ca 445 ppm, dKH 8.2, Mg 1350 ppm, dosed continuously by Apex controlled peristaltic pumps for smooth, even levels. Very stable, little swing.

Everything is growing slowly. But growing. Good PE on all corals with polyps except are this (my only) impostors, and a single tri-color. Both look dead under daylight lighting. Under royal blue LEDs they both show nice coloration. But neither has ANY PE. The mili is in direct flow. The tri-color in strong indirect flow. On the same height within the tank I have multiple SPS with major PE. Since the light source is an LED array that runs the width of the tank, IMO the issue is not light.

Sorry for the long story, but it hopefully tells the whole story.

My first thought is to take YOUR test kits over to your buddys house and test HIS water with YOUR kits. See if there are any testing discrepancies between yours and his. Maybe temp and salinity too.

Realized I neglected to mention NO3 and PO4. In shirt, I can't measure NO3 with a Salifert kit, other than minor indications that - at times - it's above zero.

As for PO4, my new Hanna tester fluctuates between .01 and .08, depending on how many hours per day I run the ATS. Bottom line - the ATS works, and shifting between low phosphates and stupid-low phosphates is easily controllable by the hours per day I run the ATS.

That is a pretty large swing in test results for phosphate.
Is that before and after feeding?
Or after several days?

 

[scolley]

What do you mean "hours per day" that you run the ATS?

Sorry - should have been more specific. The ATS plumbing has water running through it all day. The "hours" per day I was referring to is the duration of photoperiod that lights up the ATS. Few hours, less photosynthesis of the thread algae, less N and P removed from the water.

...and tell me more about your LEDs. Is it a DIY or a purchased unit? What brand, nanometer/kelvin, and how many of each LED are there?

DIY LED. I'm quite proud of it actually because I went to a lot of trouble to make it look nice enough to be a commercial fixture. But that's beside the point.

It's 24 Cree XRE's: 6 Neutral White, 2 Cool White, 2 Blue, 14 Royal Blue. All running at whatever the max amperage is for XRE's (750ma? 1000ma? don't really remember). Suspended 15" over the surface of the water. (The top of the mili in question is 7" below the surface). I've got a 12 hour photoperiod with the lights slowly ramping up to - and down from - the 6.5 hour mid-day 100% LED illumination. The other 5.5 hours is 2.75 hours ramping up from 0% to 100%, and 2.75 hours dimming from 100% down to 0%.

Actually what I described above in terms of the photoperiod is really the "average" photo period. I use the Apex season table to vary my photoperiod over the course of a year. I think at the longest it's around 12.75 hours, and at the shortest is around 11.25 hours. As the photoperiod stretches and contracts over the year, it's the middle 100% 6.5 hours that gets increased/decreased in duration.

My first thought is to take YOUR test kits over to your buddys house and test HIS water with YOUR kits. See if there are any testing discrepancies between yours and his. Maybe temp and salinity too.

That's a good idea. Thanks, I'll do that!

BTW - my salinity stays bang on 1.025. And my temp averages about 8.3 at the moment, and throughout the day may swing as much a 1/2 a degree up or down from that. I use the Apex season table function that has a temp low of 75 in January and a high of 80.5 in August. I keep my tank about 2 degrees warmer than that season table. So my range - over the course of a year - is 77 to 82.5 then back to 77.

That is a pretty large swing in test results for phosphate. Is that before and after feeding?
Or after several days?

Those readings were before feeding, but were a few weeks apart. One was running the ATS light 18 hours a day. The higher reading was after a few weeks of running the ATS only 5 hours a day to let my phosphate creep up (assuming I was starving my corals at 0.01.)
Also, keep in mind, those Hanna checkers have a 0.04 margin of error. So my .01 reading could have been as high as .05, and the .08 as low as .04. But I don't think so. It make sense for it to be higher after a couple of weeks with a reduced ATS photoperiod.

Thanks for help folks! :thumbsup: I think I'll try to move that mili tonight.