ChrisKirkland
Reef and Coral Fanatic
I run 4 Radion G2's and have had lots of success with them. I think the radions come the closest to MH. 1 radion G2 equals 1 250 Watt MH. I love mine, great color and growth.
Any serious SPS collectors use LED?
- Thread starter SPS_Addiction
- Start date
Which 250 watt MH? Are you saying they all put out the same? :lol:
Is the Radion equal to a 250 MH putting out a ppfd of 33 or one putting out a ppfd of 189? Is it somewhere in the middle? How do you know?
What about spread and coverage? Which MH reflector? Does it make a difference?
While I think the Radion is a decent light, at some point reality has to creep in and we have to stop comparing LED's to MH and T5.
ChrisKirkland
Reef and Coral Fanatic
I am not looking at spectrums. I am speaking in terms of Coverage and intensity overall.
The issue mention here are of LED fixture Gen 1 in most cases, The current top shelf LEDs are full spectrum and single light source to eliminate shadows from multiple light source LEDs. The problem with discussion of LEDs is it has progressed there are more advances coming point of reference is a big deal in this discussion. Vivid is using LED on the their tank. I am using it I know what I have.
ghostman
New member
+1 to this. I believe the comparison of the radion to a 250w MH came early on in the description of the radions (and LED lamps in general). As sirreal63 alludes to, that comparison is not even close. Especially in coverage.
Wazzel
New member
I disagree, since they are used for the same application we need to compare. It gets complicated with the variability of the LED fixtures.
For instance, from my experience I would say a AI hydra52 is approximately equal to a 250 watt MH when it is run at or near full power on all channels. If you greatly reduce the power on many channels then that is no longer valid. Also you need to be happy with 10k +/- color temp to get the best performance out of the Hydra52. To get a 20k color temp you are running the fixture at around 50% total power, again from my experience.
With a bigass reflector, MHs are no longer a single source light, really.
Half the problem with LEDs shadowing is *because* the high end ones are single source.
Might explain why so many people have such a high success to $ ratio with reef breeders --- panel.
Or, look at the Lani fixtures.....
Half the problem with LEDs shadowing is *because* the high end ones are single source.
Might explain why so many people have such a high success to $ ratio with reef breeders --- panel.
Or, look at the Lani fixtures.....
As long as new generations of LED's are evolving, a comparison will need to be made. Further, comparisons will need to be made when users get to a point where they can state that they have not changed settings for a protracted period of time. We just don't have enough longer term experience under stable, base-line conditions to make an accurate statement.
From experience, I can say what I have encountered. I started my identical 220 gallon tanks off with 5 AI Sol Blu units over each. I had moderate growth on most pieces and slower on others. My colors though were great. I swapped out two of the units for 250 watt DE MH using xm 20k bulbs in Lumen Max 3 pendants on Lumatek adjustable ballasts. The ballast setting was on the "boosted" 250 watt setting. I swapped out the units because I was afraid, from what I had been reading here, that I was not providing the complete spectrum and that was what was impeding the growth. Plus, with only white and blue/royal blue, it kind of made sense. That was one of the worse things I have done.
My Pocillopora and Birdnest pieces actually lost quite a bit of their color intensity, but exploded in growth. I am not a big frag person and I believed the color would return after a period of light adjustment. I was wrong and should have aggressively fragged. The stuff took over my tank. Both species had little babies all over the tank, on my overflow, glass and powerheads. They then died off at the bases due to lack of light/flow. This led to an algae bloom and getting HA out of Seriatopora is a losing battle. The Sol Blu units were at 55% across the board.
Visually, the tanks looked no different. It was amazing as I could stand in our kitchen and look at both tanks when one had been converted to the LED/MH combination and one had not. My wife could not tell them apart. One way to tell though was to look at the tank temps, one was 4-5 degrees warmer than the other. The living room became hotter as well which was made quite noticeable when the second tank was converted.
I ended up basically restarting the tanks a few months ago, taking out the MH to go back to all LED's and converting three out of the five units over each tank to Hydras. One tank has LPS and softies and is doing great. The other tank is SPS only and, at this point, I have no issues. I put quite a few pieces from Copps in the tank at the end of October and quite a few more mid-November from others. A couple frags from Copps have grown 1/4-1/2" nubs where they had been broken during shipping. Certain frags in the mid-November batch have shown surprising growth in less than 1 month, encrusting their plugs mainly, but in one case where the frag was laying on the rock, encrusting the rock to make a disk about the size of a quarter.
Time will tell, but as of right now, given my priorities, these units are serving me well. I have less heat. My corals are coloring up and growing. We'll see how my batch from Battle Corals/Adam does when I receive them after Christmas.
From experience, I can say what I have encountered. I started my identical 220 gallon tanks off with 5 AI Sol Blu units over each. I had moderate growth on most pieces and slower on others. My colors though were great. I swapped out two of the units for 250 watt DE MH using xm 20k bulbs in Lumen Max 3 pendants on Lumatek adjustable ballasts. The ballast setting was on the "boosted" 250 watt setting. I swapped out the units because I was afraid, from what I had been reading here, that I was not providing the complete spectrum and that was what was impeding the growth. Plus, with only white and blue/royal blue, it kind of made sense. That was one of the worse things I have done.
My Pocillopora and Birdnest pieces actually lost quite a bit of their color intensity, but exploded in growth. I am not a big frag person and I believed the color would return after a period of light adjustment. I was wrong and should have aggressively fragged. The stuff took over my tank. Both species had little babies all over the tank, on my overflow, glass and powerheads. They then died off at the bases due to lack of light/flow. This led to an algae bloom and getting HA out of Seriatopora is a losing battle. The Sol Blu units were at 55% across the board.
Visually, the tanks looked no different. It was amazing as I could stand in our kitchen and look at both tanks when one had been converted to the LED/MH combination and one had not. My wife could not tell them apart. One way to tell though was to look at the tank temps, one was 4-5 degrees warmer than the other. The living room became hotter as well which was made quite noticeable when the second tank was converted.
I ended up basically restarting the tanks a few months ago, taking out the MH to go back to all LED's and converting three out of the five units over each tank to Hydras. One tank has LPS and softies and is doing great. The other tank is SPS only and, at this point, I have no issues. I put quite a few pieces from Copps in the tank at the end of October and quite a few more mid-November from others. A couple frags from Copps have grown 1/4-1/2" nubs where they had been broken during shipping. Certain frags in the mid-November batch have shown surprising growth in less than 1 month, encrusting their plugs mainly, but in one case where the frag was laying on the rock, encrusting the rock to make a disk about the size of a quarter.
Time will tell, but as of right now, given my priorities, these units are serving me well. I have less heat. My corals are coloring up and growing. We'll see how my batch from Battle Corals/Adam does when I receive them after Christmas.
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https://www.flickr.com/photos/veneluca/15285424683/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/veneluca/15719017809/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/veneluca/15905070495/
This is my tank. Some PAR measures taken with a new apogee MQ200 under 4 radion G3 pro at 100%, standard lens. Fixtures 35cm above water. Pumps are all off.
Don't look at tank, corals and white balance. It will be a SPS dominated tank.
Tank is 150x130x65cm.
http://www.reefbastards.it/showthread.php?5742-La-Vasca-Di-Andrea-Grignani-AKA-Ghirba
Tank with 2 readion G3pro. Minimal husbandry, great results.
Luca
https://www.flickr.com/photos/veneluca/15719017809/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/veneluca/15905070495/
This is my tank. Some PAR measures taken with a new apogee MQ200 under 4 radion G3 pro at 100%, standard lens. Fixtures 35cm above water. Pumps are all off.
Don't look at tank, corals and white balance. It will be a SPS dominated tank.
Tank is 150x130x65cm.
http://www.reefbastards.it/showthread.php?5742-La-Vasca-Di-Andrea-Grignani-AKA-Ghirba
Tank with 2 readion G3pro. Minimal husbandry, great results.
Luca
This is a little off topic, but I wanted to impart something I think might be interesting down the road. I am a private equity investor for a family office. We own a nice chunk of an optics Company that I am on the board of. It is primarily in the currency fraud prevention area using optical lenses to do things like the strip on the $100 bill or the 3D effect on the British pound. They are also involved with making a new type of solar panel using their lens technology that will increase the efficiency of solar panels to around 60-75% while lowering the cost.
At the most recent board meeting, the founder/scientist said he was working on something for another friend that needed to make, get this, LED's light spread more even and like other point sources. I can't remember what the actual application was, but it was more of a general use, maybe a replacement for florescent tubes. I asked him after the board meeting about how it might apply to our purpose and he said it would apply to any LED use. I think he is using his lens technology, coupled with a reflector, to basically make the LED act like a MH with a reflector.
That seems very interesting indeed and I am going to send him one of my spare SOL Blu units to play around with when he gets to that point.
At the most recent board meeting, the founder/scientist said he was working on something for another friend that needed to make, get this, LED's light spread more even and like other point sources. I can't remember what the actual application was, but it was more of a general use, maybe a replacement for florescent tubes. I asked him after the board meeting about how it might apply to our purpose and he said it would apply to any LED use. I think he is using his lens technology, coupled with a reflector, to basically make the LED act like a MH with a reflector.
That seems very interesting indeed and I am going to send him one of my spare SOL Blu units to play around with when he gets to that point.
I agree with Sir Real 63 in that making a general conclusion about something being equivalent to something else when each can be so drastically different is not a great comment to make.
But I strongly disagree that that comparison's should not be made. They need to be made with greater clarity of the details of each and what aspects of each you are really comparing them.
My post above was not a comparison of one to the other, but merely of my observations under each.
Once again, the original question of whether anyone is keeping and having success with high-end SPS has been ignored. The answer is that people are keeping high end SPS under them , but it is too early to make an accurate evaluation. Ask me in a year or so.
But I strongly disagree that that comparison's should not be made. They need to be made with greater clarity of the details of each and what aspects of each you are really comparing them.
My post above was not a comparison of one to the other, but merely of my observations under each.
Once again, the original question of whether anyone is keeping and having success with high-end SPS has been ignored. The answer is that people are keeping high end SPS under them , but it is too early to make an accurate evaluation. Ask me in a year or so.
Wazzel
New member
Selective quoting, sarcasm and nitpicking all in one post. Are you just wanting to be difficult.
Do you actually have anything to say on the entirety of my post? My point is valid. I know MH's have a range of performance based on bulb, ballast and reflector combinations. A properly operated, quality LED unit will perform in that range, making them "approximately equal". I was not making a specific fixture to fixture comparison.
Mike, a lot of people have had good success with LED's and "high end" SPS, but many who switched to LED switched back after a while. They each have their own reasons for switching back but there should be no question that LED's can keep SPS alive and growing and healthy.
IMO the only valid comparison is how each person's tank is doing with LED's vs. MH or T5. That is as far as the comparison can really go, there are too many variables to say LED "A" is equal to a 250 watt MH, and even more silly when there are many 150 watt MH's that outperform many 250 watt MH's. So it could be equal to 250 watt MH "A" and inferior to 150 watt MH "B".
IMO the only valid comparison is how each person's tank is doing with LED's vs. MH or T5. That is as far as the comparison can really go, there are too many variables to say LED "A" is equal to a 250 watt MH, and even more silly when there are many 150 watt MH's that outperform many 250 watt MH's. So it could be equal to 250 watt MH "A" and inferior to 150 watt MH "B".
The point is you cannot make that broad comparison, way too many variables. You could say that the Hydra is doing a comparable job that MH bulb "A" with ballast "A" and reflector "A" did on my tank. You cannot say it is equal to a/all 250 watt MH's, and that is what you did. You could compare a chart showing the spread of each and intensity within that spread, and if they were the same, then you could say it was equal. I hope that makes sense?
It can also go the other way with LED X vs LED Y.
I think the proper comment might be (and this is word smithing to a great degree), Certain LED units at certain settings in a certain environment perform similarly to certain 250 watt MH ballast with a certain bulb and a certain reflector.
I think the proper comment might be (and this is word smithing to a great degree), Certain LED units at certain settings in a certain environment perform similarly to certain 250 watt MH ballast with a certain bulb and a certain reflector.
Wazzel
New member
In short "approximately equal".
Wazzel
New member
My point was the MH have a performance range and LEDs have a performance range and those overlap to some extent. On the LED side there are lots of caveats.
From my experience with the Hydra52 there is no way it will come close to a radium. For 20k operation the radium will blow it away. When you get to the 12-10k range the story is different. Again from my experience the hydra52 is right there with MH in that range. There will be some the out perform, but not like in the higher color temps.
Disclaimer, this is based on my own observations and experience with both LED and MH.
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