Any way to get away with not doing water changes?

[Big E]

It's fine if you want to do water changes, but don't sit here and insinuate im stretching the truth to advance a point that benefits me in no way. I'm here to say that there is a way to have a thriving reef tank without doing weekly or monthly water changes and thats it.

So the OP & others reading this thread are supposed to take your word for it?

I bolded the part I have a problem with. I've been keeping SPS for 15+ years and they don't thrive without water changes.

I prefer to take the word of people with thriving corals.

All the TOTM winners in 2015 advocate water changes. People would be better off following one of these guys I'm 100% sure on that.

 

[Gary Majchrzak]

reefkeeping over 21 years here now.
If I can get away without a water change on a particular system I avoid it...
But no water changes come at a price....usually coral diversity IME....probably due to allelopathic metabolitess accumulating

 

[Bootlegger]

I feel like I'm in AA or something when I say the the following, "I've been going on three months now without a water change."

I'm thinking I may phase back in water changes at some point but right now everything is looking good.

My main "theory" for not doing water changes is that not everything in saltwater is necessary to maintain healthy fish and coral. I'm less concerned about being able to add back what corals need (as I think my reactor takes care of most of that) as I am concerned about not being able export things they may accumulate over time and create issues.

All things being equal, long-term reef success from water changes heavily relies on using very clean (or balanced) water and quality salt. In my day job we say, "Garbage in/garbage out." But in a reef tank's case, if you're putting garbage in..it's likely going to stay in. Thus, another decade from now, the going consensus may be "less is more". That is, water changes may be found to be generally unnecessary with the right equipment and additives.


Parameters:
Display Gallons: 75
Temp, 80-82
Salinity: 1.024 (slowly raising to 1.025 or higher)
Calcium, 400-450
DKH: 8.5-9.0
Magnesium: haven't tested for it yet (tank is too new with too few corals to worry. Also, my Calcium and DKH ratio say nothing to worry about)

Nitrates: 0
Phosphates: 0 (I know this is not entirely true as I have some bubble algae on old live rock that is still growing but I can tell leveling off)

Equipment:
6x T5HO 54watt (the usual mix of blue, actinic, color+)
20 gallon sump
Aqua Euro in-sump skimmer
Knopp Calcium Reactor (the big one)
200 micro filter sock (change out every couple weeks)

 

[saf1]

So the OP & others reading this thread are supposed to take your word for it?

I bolded the part I have a problem with. I've been keeping SPS for 15+ years and they don't thrive without water changes.

I prefer to take the word of people with thriving corals.

All the TOTM winners in 2015 advocate water changes. People would be better off following one of these guys I'm 100% sure on that.

But you also don't have to be a TOTM to have a successful tank. See what I did there? Furthermore, there is no recipe for success that everyone follows otherwise we would all be doing it.

The OP can plan, design, and build something to suit his/her needs. Just be smart about it. Also if they are in Ca then we are all being asked to control our water. If not you will be throw into a higher tier which means more money out of the pocket...so you might as well be smart now unless you just want to throw money down the drain.

In fact, I'll just drive down to Monterey and collect some NSW. 4 hour drive but will get me out of the house, maybe a dive or two, then when I'm packing up my gear I'll just load up a 25 gallon brute and take it home. Problem solved.

 

[saf1]

reefkeeping over 21 years here now.
If I can get away without a water change on a particular system I avoid it...
But no water changes come at a price....usually coral diversity IME....probably due to allelopathic metabolitess accumulating

Maybe - but you can also keep corals that do very well with dirtier water or not as pure maybe. Just gets back to that planning and design.

 

[Big E]

saf1--

But you also don't have to be a TOTM to have a successful tank. See what I did there? Furthermore, there is no recipe for success that everyone follows otherwise we would all be doing it.

Yes, I did see what you did..........you're being a troll without offering any insight or proof.

If someone wants a thriving tank it makes sense to follow practices of someone like a TOTM winner that has been successful.

There are basic fundamentals that can be followed that don't change & most successful tanks adhere to these.

 

[saf1]

saf1--



Yes, I did see what you did..........you're being a troll without offering any insight or proof.

If someone wants a thriving tank it makes sense to follow practices of someone like a TOTM winner that has been successful.

There are basic fundamentals that can be followed that don't change & most successful tanks adhere to these.

Just because someone doesn't agree with you doesn't make them a troll or any other unpleasant fantasy animal. I don't agree with you - look at the other tanks on these forums - do you think they all follow the same maintenance routine and/or have exactly the same equipment?

Does the OP want to keep SPS, then he is probably going about it the wrong way. However, if they want to keep LPS or soft, then there are plenty of options on the table whereas they don't have to do as much. Just depends on what they want to keep and how they design it.

Keep in mind everyone has a price point.

 

[glennf]

in a little more than a week, november 2015.

11th anniversary of my mixed reeftank.

from the start (nov.2004)no stuctural/periodic/weekly/monthly/bi-monthly water changes.

This result seems nice enough to say "no weekly changes necessary", if you have the will, means and knowledge to manage your water quality.

There are many ways to go about reefing.

my way is the ecological way. i want to save energy, money, and time. Most important "i want to keep the fun and exitement into this hobby which has infinite exciting possibilities.

happy reefing.

 

[BeanAnimal]

DSR http://www.dsrreefing.nl/

It is becoming more common in German and EU countries to not do water changes there are several method's. If you read German and dutch forums you will learn about the options.

I have to laugh every time a supporting argument is based on "they do it over in the EU"...

So the do it in the EU why? Economics? Arrogance? Experimentation? Herd Mentality? To be different than the West? Who knows...

Please consider a few very simply, immutable facts.

• An aquarium is not a closed ecosystem
• nutrients are added as food
• organisms produce waste
• elements are consumed as part of tissue growth

Can we add back elements and compounds that get consumed by dosing trace elements? Sure, it is possible. But WHAT do we measure and what do we add? We know if we ADD saltwater, we are adding what the corals naturally thrive in.

Can we remove waste via filtration? Sure, but in what concentration and what exactly are we removing? If, however, we remove part of the actual water column, we remove EVERYTHING in proportion the amount of water we change. We (see above) replace that water with a known quantity of what we know the coral needs.

Skimmers? Scrubbers? Mechanical filters? Chemical filters? Biological filters? Sure they all do something... but not everything.

Most of our aquariums are ticking time bombs. Some will explode months after we set them up, others may take years or decades to degrade. What is the determining factor? Simply put, the ability to remove waste and add back essentials. The less you remove, and the more you add, the faster down the path toward disaster you travel. See the first point, these are NOT closed ecosystems. So your DSB or Nitrate reactor, or filter sock, or whatever... are all just means of export or conversion, but not of them are sufficient alone. Some work better than others and any combination is likely to work better than the individual. The right combination may allow you to skip water changes for extremely long periods.

But make no mistake, without water changes, your task of keeping a healthy system grows in complexity. At the same time, with sufficient water changes ALONE, a healthy system can ALWAYS be maintained.

Why do we not solely rely on water changes alone? I suspect the cost is prohibitive and the volume and frequency would create substantial work. Thus, we use supplemental methods to extend the period of time needed between water changes and balance the cost and effort required.

 

[seamonster124]

Post #68 answered this question once and for all

 

[BeanAnimal]

Post #68 answered this question once and for all

I would submit that your uptake of basic fact and logic may need a bit of recalibration. Usually, that comes with time

They key takeaway from post #68 is NOT the success, but the open ended statement that

...if you have the will, means and knowledge to manage your water quality

The example photos only indicate success over the timespan indicated. The system may or may not be headed for disaster. Read my post above: It is certainly possible that his husbandry and methodology are sufficient for long term success, but at what level of complexity and where on the timeline to disaster is this aquarium? Again, there are many basic facts that we can not fully avoid.

No water changes? Sure, if that floats your boat and you think you can come up with viable supplementation and export means. The basic laws of physics and nature are going to be working very hard against you

 

[seamonster124]

I'm just complimenting his beautiful work. Was not even talking to u, and u start insulting me?

 

[Aqualund]

Bean,
I would contend that water changes are not the end all be all that you are making them out to be. After all, salt mixes are just man-made combinations of salts, do they cover the full array of complex requirements like you say they do? Probably not.

I could agree with your statements if we are talking about NSW, but the same premise for the fallibility of the equipment used to facilitate the nitrogen cycle can be applied to the idea that salt mixes provide everything corals need.

I have seen no evidence to suggest that a calcium reactor with supplemental trace elements dosing is in any way inferior to a salt mix for supplying essential elements. In fact, I would argue that it is superior.

So then the question really comes down to ion exchange and "old tank syndrome" of which I think an argument can be made.

I think the spirit of the origin of this thread is "how can i do this hobby without doing biweekly or monthly water changes." Maybe I'm completely wrong on that, But I think any reasonable person can look at a very robust filtration and supplementation regimen coupled with biannual or annual water changes to avert OTS, and see that it is definitely not headed for disaster like you say it is, While significantly reducing the amount of maintenance needed...which is what I think this thread was looking for.

 

[jason2459]

I still see no reason not to do periodic water changes only benefits. I know of only one system now that has made it to the decade mark with zero water changes or at least reported to have had zero water changes. (Minus the taking of items in and out but I would not count that).

But to what extent does it to maintain such a system and what negative impact could it possibly have. The first part is known the second is not. To me the work it takes to maintain zero water changes is not worth it.

As to BA's last statement. I do run my 20 long mantis tank with a couple fish and softies with no filtration at all and depend entirely on water changes along. 4 gallons changed a week. Super easy and I found doing that I do not even have to have an ATO.

 

[Gary Majchrzak]

in a little more than a week, november 2015.

11th anniversary of my mixed reeftank.

from the start (nov.2004)no stuctural/periodic/weekly/monthly/bi-monthly water changes

nice reef aquarium, Glenn!

So... is there any way to guesstimate your water change schedule?
What triggers you to do a change if not based on time frame?
How much (what percentage) is exchanged when you do a change?

 

[glennf]

Thanks!


it will alway be water changes against NO water changes (it seems).

most people experience WC are easy for them.. so please continue doing that. After all it's your hobby and your experience. Don't let anyone spoil your hobby experience!

i found out long ago i was not the WC "type". Even in my freshwater time i was no WC enthousiast.

of course this has it's impact on my results over the years.
i was always drewling over others nice and above average reeftanks.

i was on the virge of quiting, when i decided to give it another go.
i decided to disect the water chemistry and "reinvent" saltwater myself. By doing that i learned compose my own saltmix, but more than that, I learned ways how to manage the water quality in every aspect.
this made it possible for me to omit WC .

THE ONLY REASON (for me) to remove water is to compensate for the NaCl build up by using (bi)carbonate combined with CaCl2 supplementation, but this is a seamless process and usually don't require specific intervention.
skimmers, fragging, minor siphoning are enough to keep NaCl in track.
so... this makes it useless for me to periodicly/weekly/monthly replace perfectly good water.
i sometimes even have to manually add NaCl.....think about that....

since start doing this the tank only moved uphill.

Being what it is now
and started in 2004, replacing ~400liter (system1500l) in jan2012 for my own synthetic test mix.
i can say no structural changes in 11years and the results speak for itself.

oh yeah... the answer is:
i simply have no shedule for water changes.. because i don't intent to do any at all.

the only reason would be a water correction with NaCl free water due to the above mentioned salinity rise (due to NaCl buildup) because leaving out skimmers, and no fragging and minor siphoning.

growth is no issue... (it seems)

 

[acesq]

Post #68 answered this question once and for all

I agree. GlennF does have a thriving reef tank that does not rely on regular water changes. And he's been doing it for 11 years!! His method does require significant testing and addition of trace elements, but it certainly disproves the theory that regular water changes are required for a thriving long term reef tank.

 

[FarmerTy]

I employed a no water change system myself on my last tank and current one.

I don't have 10+ years of history on it but 3 years on the previous tank and almost 2 years on the current one has me feeling pretty good about my method.

https://youtu.be/1RTwwSU2HJY

 

[seamonster124]

Looking great!

 

[acesq]

Beautiful tank Tybota!! What do you do for nutrient export?