anybody in URS remove any DSB?

[Gary Majchrzak]

I almost included some of those same exact points in my previous reply- including the rock part. {John and I don't communicate these ideas privately, BTW.} The thread in the link I provided in my previous post is reeeally long, I know. But it is loaded with facts.

 

[Gary Majchrzak]

When anecdotal observations back up scientific fact the world is a much better place. {Now if only I could figure woman out!}
Evidence of phosphate reduction in my aquarium is everywhere, but here is one of the best single examples I can share with everyone: it's a pic of a green stag-type Acropora. Before phosphate reduction measures were initiated, the tissue recession on this particular coral {seen at the base of the coral} was happening faster than the coral was growing. After phosphate reduction began {via DSB cleaning/removal, improved skimming and running phosphate remover} the tissue recession has completely halted and healthy tissue is growing downward- as well as up and outward.

 

[morris2]

It's hard to find somebody who's had the same tank, same sandbed running well for more than 3-4 years, most

My DSB is 4+ years and I have nothing but great things to say about it. I understand what everybody is saying about the problems but I have yet to have them. Just chiming in with my two cents.

Until recently I had no idea that I had such an old DSB. I had no idea I am such a pioneer.

 

[Loudz34]

well after seeing a few tanks with problems~ Our new tank will be a bb with a deep sandbed in a fuge..... that way we can take it off line if need be and not disrupt the display.... Only 6 more months left till the move .,...Yeeee ha

 

[Gary Majchrzak]

morris2- It's easy to claim to be a pioneering success with a 4 year old DSB. Most people that look at my aquarium would not know that coral growth rates had slowed in recent months. Can you show us a recent pic of your aquarium and give a description of your system? What kind of corals do you maintain and how long have you had them? How deep is your DSB? Have you run any phosphate removers- or ever needed to upgrade your skimmer? What do you do with all of the corals that you prune back occasionally?
Do you replace or vacuum sections of your DSB? Do you have any critters that stir your sandbed?
Being in SW for 15 years, did you ever run a reef aquarium 'bare bottom'?
Just because you have yet to have problems with a DSB doesn't mean you're not going to. Each aquarium and DSB is unique and has it's own saturation point.

 

[morris2]

Gary,

Please understand that my remark on being a pioneer was totally tounge in cheek. I do not feel in any way that I am an expert on DSB's. I have one, it has, and continues to work for me. I know the pit falls stated in DSB's and cannot discount them. My tank may start to have serious problems at some time in the future. I works for me for now.

Having said that I am more than happy to send you a picture of my tank. I apologize in advance for the quality as the camera is an old one. I would post it but I don't know how. You are welcome to post it if you would like.

As far as my system. This 100 gal tank was originally set up in November of 1995 as a FOWLR, NO lights and a wet dry filter. At some point in time I added an Amricle(sp?) skimmer which I have modified by adding an air stone which makes it at best an ok skimmer.

I shortly removed the bioballs from the we dry and added more live rock to bring me to my current total of rock about 125 lbs.

In November of 1999 I added a 4" DSB of southdown sand. I got a kit from ISPF of bristle worms ect.

I upgraded the lights to VHO and started adding LPS corals and kept them for several years.

About a year ago I added a green pocci to the tank to experiment with sps. Last May I switched to MH lighting. The pocci has grown into a small colony and continues to show good growth.

I have removed most of the LPS & soft corals and have been adding more sps frags. In October I added several frags from David Playfair (orange & green monti cap, tort, green slimer, blue tip stag, & another pocci) They are all doing well showing nice growth. The pocci bleached but is making a slow recovery. The slimer had to be fragged due to an intank mishap but is doing fine as well. I recently added some more frags from Dr. Mac & Sons. I also hope to purchase more frags at the up coming frag swap in Syracuse. As far as growth rates I cannot tell you if it has slowed as I have not had sps that long.

Have you run any phosphate removers

Not at this time but I am thinking about it due to the DSB debate.

ever needed to upgrade your skimmer?

I should as my current one is not the greatest, but it seems to do the job.

Do you replace or vacuum sections of your DSB?

No, I have never disturbed it. I have added some more sand over time. The total depth of the DSB is still around 4".

Do you have any critters that stir your sandbed?

Yes, I have several fighting conches and about 10 large turbo sails and many certh and nasarrious(sp)snails. I have been thinking about removing the turbos due to their size but they do plow the sand quite a bit as they move across it.

Being in SW for 15 years, did you ever run a reef aquarium 'bare bottom'?

Yes I did for a couple of years around '92-'93. I did not like the look and maintenance.

Just because you have yet to have problems with a DSB doesn't mean you're not going to. Each aquarium and DSB is unique and has it's own saturation point.

Yes, as I stated above, I know I may have problems in the future.

What my tank does show is that DSB's can work for a sustained period. I feel that people are quick to blame DSB's for problems when many times it can be other issues.


What do you do with all of the corals that you prune back occasionally?

When I get to that point I will be more than happy to let you have some

I know there are many ways to keep a succesful reef tank. BB & DSB's both can work. It is not my intention to advocate one over the other (I do have my own preference). I was not trying to stir up the DSB debate but replying to drtango's statement about the diffulty in finding a 3-4 yr old DSB. At this point I would not remove my DSB because I am curious as to how long it will continue. It seems to be one of the older ones around.

 

[Gary Majchrzak]

Thanks for the reply. In a way, each one of us are pioneers with our own personal reef aquarium experiences. {Pink} Pocillipora damicornis is one coral that has always shown continuous growth in my aquarium- even before I started DSB phosphate reduction.
I suspect Acropora and Montipora {in general} are highly sensitive to accumulated phosphates.
I can distinctly remember the day my "caps" ceased to grow {you can usually see a white line of growth on their perimeter.}
Performing a 100% water change on my system resulted in nothing- nada. No difference.
A 10% water change that including removing a small section of sandbed resulted in white growth perimeters on several corals that had been in a "torpor" for many months- in some cases, years.
The results of running Rowa Phos and removing DSB, in my particular case, have been almost "miraculous". {You can laugh, but my tongue is not "in cheek".}
It's time to stop blaming other things and call a spade a spade.
Anything in a system that can hinder the export of phosphates, {rock, sand etc.} can and will. Phosphates can and will inhibit calcification. Not all detritus gets swept over a system's overflow to the sump for mechanical filtration. It falls to the bottom of the aquarium. Once it's recycled a number of times and allowed to accumulate, it becomes public enemy #1 in a reef aquarium.
IME, It's more difficult to remove detritus from a DSB than SSB or BB. Thankfully, no DSB was installed in the zoo aquarium!
Keep on pioneering!

 

[mia1974]

I am down to 2" from a 5" DSB...the changes in health of my overall system is very amazing to say the least! Acro growth has increased, nuisance algae has decreased (and continues to do so). I have also been using ROWAPHOS- fluidized , skimmer is set to run wet and ozone during the DSB removal process as I am sure some nasty organics/PO4 are being released in small quantities and I want to be careful after reading some of the horror stories people have encountered when disturbing DSB's.

I have seen some dsb's that do in fact work quite well, are full of life and are over 2.5 years old, however this wasn't the results I had with my dsb. With my fish and coral load my dsb saturated with PO4 faster than most I suppose, I have encountered cementing and a loss of critters despite several seeding attempts from various sources. This past year has been horrible in terms of cyano/hair and coral recession/stunting.

Right now it looks like I have a new reeftank as things are just doing that much better finally

Only 1 more inch to go and I plan to add more tunzes to keep detritus in suspension from now on as much as I can. Everytime I take out a bit more the reef looks that much better.

 

[Gary Majchrzak]

Hi Janine! It feels futile explaining this DSB/sponge concept to someone that has not been through it. I understand their position- I was in denial for some time! Only somebody that has experiened this situation can appreciate Bomber and YellowTang's DSB threads. I'm very glad to hear everything is doing better "up north". How does it feel to be "reborn"!?

 

[mia1974]

LOL!! After a year of absolute misery it feels pretty darn good!!! I actually do not want to take a sledge-hammer to the tank anymore and can remember finally why it was that I enjoyed this hobby in the first place

 

[Gary Majchrzak]

I'm almost through with my DSB removal project, although the water removed today still looks almost as dirty as the day I started. Funny how the color of this water removed from the DSB looks the exact shade of skimmate.

 

[drtango]

Gary-

That picture of sewer water sums up the DSB argument--who wants that in their tank??

Now that I'm a "Bomberite", I'm getting obsessed about little piles of detritus and fish poop that piles up here and there in the tank--once a week, it's easy to siphon it out, do a 5 gallon sweep of the sump, and I'm clean again. Can't believe I had 5 inches of poop in my tank previously.

Another observation--my new monster skimmer (Euroreef style 8 inch by 36 with two sedra 5000 ) is REALLY slowing down, I only get lots of skimmate when feeding. With the DSB in place, I was getting literally buckets of crud weekly, without visible improvement. A DSB is a HUGE bioload to support when it starts to crump.

I'll try to take pics of your frags this weekend, already visible growth which is nice to see again....

John

 

[Gary Majchrzak]

I guess I'm a "Bomberite", too!
May your scleractinians live long and prosper!:lol:

 

[laxing22]

......Hey- my own DSB was working great a couple of years ago!......If you go DSB- plan on "cleaning" it once the sponge is full. Personally, unless you are planning on keeping animals that require a DSB- I wouldn't even consider putting one in. JMO.

.......Let me put on my asbestos suit.......

................ok.................

This is why I like the UGF for long term

 

[Gary Majchrzak]

No need for asbestos- there are lots of ways to run a reef aquarium. What animals do you feel require an UGF, Ben? How are you going to remove the crud that accumulates under the UGF? To me, an UGF plate in a reef aquarium sounds even more challenging to maintain than a DSB.

 

[clown2be]

Ever since I signed on to RC and been reading about DSB V's SSB or BB from one forum to another. How does one make a decision? What signs should I be looking for? My sand Is 3 years old. Getting concerned. What about only having 1"-2" of sand V's my 5" bed?

 

[Gary Majchrzak]

How does one make a decision? LOL! IMO, the depth of your sandbed should be based on what animals you want to keep- or, if maintenance is not a factor, the bottom of your aquarium should be what you find aesthetically pleasing.
What signs to look for? If SPS growth has slowed to a grinding halt and you've exhausted all other possible explanations- I'd start to suspect accumulated organic and/or inorganic phosphates. Try running a good phospahate remover such as Rowa Phos. If phosphates are to blame, you'll know in a few days after running Rowa Phos.

 

[Gary Majchrzak]

.......Let me put on my asbestos suit.......

................ok.................

This is why I like the UGF for long term

laxing22- You might want to check out the current issue {July 2004 issue- has a Rainbowfish on the cover} of Aquarium Fish Magazine. In his 'Reef Aquarist' column, Charles Delbeek mentions several very important why an UGF should be avoided in a reef aquarium.

 

[laxing22]

How are you going to remove the crud that accumulates under the UGF? To me, an UGF plate in a reef aquarium sounds even more challenging to maintain than a DSB.

What crud? The underside of my tank is compleately visable - just lots of bubbles accumulate there; then they get sucked out with the PHs all day (only thing I do not like about it). Some sand is down there too as I have added it in places for things that needed it, only to have it get sucked down. Also the back of the bed is at least 6 inches deep and slopes to the front. I did not put it in for any fish in mind, at the time of set up, it was what seemed like the best way to go for biological reasons. I do not do any maint on the bed and has been set up about 6 years. (well I add about 20-30 lbs of CC a year and I did a total restack of the rocks about year of so ago). Also have about 100 lbs of LR in there to help the Bio. I do not keep any SPS but many LPS, anemones, zoa's, leathers... I also keep a VERY low bio load - 3 clowns in the display and a molly miller in the sump (she got mean)
I also seldom change any water.

laxing22- You might want to check out the current issue {July 2004 issue- has a Rainbowfish on the cover}

Just checked the mail box, I still do not have it ! I hope my sub did not run out

 

[Dag]

Gary, are you still happy with the result?