Anyone Thinking of Dumping LEDS and going back to Halides

[karimwassef]

Can't help but to point out that natural reef don't run at 500ppm calcium either.

true.. but taking calcium from 420 to 500 is not "that" significant of a deviation... it's just a little more mineral in the water.

but taking alkalinity from 7.5 to 11 ... I consider that to be a significant shift in water chemistry... IMHO, anyway.

 

[dz6t]

7.5 dkh is 134ppm of CaCO3, 11 dkh is 196ppm of CaCO3
the difference is 62ppm.

The difference of Calcium from 420 to 500 ppm is 80ppm.

 

[dz6t]

In order to compare MH to LED, you need photon counter to count how many photon generated from each light source. Spot Par measurement is not very meaningful when you consider total coverage.

 

[salty joe]

7.5 dkh is 134ppm of CaCO3, 11 dkh is 196ppm of CaCO3
the difference is 62ppm.

The difference of Calcium from 420 to 500 ppm is 80ppm.

But the percentage in change is much greater with the alkalinity.

BTW, after seeing what glennf is doing, I am re-thinking using NSW as the absolute target.

 

[karimwassef]

That's why I said we need a PAR map, not a spot reading, to do it right.

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/LED%20experiments/IMG_5310_zpslj4fyggl.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/LED%20experiments/IMG_5310_zpslj4fyggl.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo IMG_5310_zpslj4fyggl.jpg"/></a>

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/LED%20experiments/Capture_zpsqflx1soi.png.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/LED%20experiments/Capture_zpsqflx1soi.png" border="0" alt=" photo Capture_zpsqflx1soi.png"/></a>

In my map, I take a reading every inch or so and plot out the distribution of PAR. Integrating over the surface area should be a meaningful measure.

 

[oreo57]

In order to compare MH to LED, you need photon counter to count how many photon generated from each light source.

"PAR" sensors measure photon counts.. Some of this is pure semantics, though yes the measurement is restricted to a "subset" of the energy.. i.e 400-700nm..
Why do you think they are called quantum sensors..???

The LI-190R measures Photosynthetically Active Radiation (PAR, in µmol of photons m-2 s-1).

https://www.licor.com/env/products/light/quantum.html
Granted, a bit confusing..

 

[karimwassef]

I think I've got a way to measure partial UV too

But it's controversial.

I shine a known white LED light on UV reactive powder and take a PAR reading off the reflected photons. So now I have a ratio of known direct PAR to returned PAR. Now that I have that ratio...

I do the same with my UV light... I get the returned PAR and use the ratio to calculate the original UV direct equivalent.

No idea if I can even get a reading, but I'm open to better ideas...

 

[oreo57]

I think I've got a way to measure partial UV too

But it's controversial.

I shine a known white LED light on UV reactive powder and take a PAR reading off the reflected photons. So now I have a ratio of known direct PAR to returned PAR. Now that I have that ratio...

I do the same with my UV light... I get the returned PAR and use the ratio to calculate the original UV direct equivalent.

No idea if I can even get a reading, but I'm open to better ideas...

How about just buying one.. ???

http://www.apogeeinstruments.com/mu-100-uv-integral-sensor-with-handheld-meter/

Sensor only:
http://www.apogeeinstruments.com/uv-sensor-su-100/

 

[karimwassef]

it took me a year to get to buying the PAR meter I have now.. maybe in 2017

 

[2smokes]

Leds do not have UV ,its =with zero absolute even for the leds sold as UV leds(with the exception of the glass and copper leds that can put out UVB but thhose arent used in the hobby by nobody and they last just 1000 hours-like an incandescent bulb,much shorter life than T5 or MH). Only light sources made of glass like MH and T5 can put out UV and the bluish bulbs we use are verry powerfull emitting UV.Soo powerfull that can get you skin get tan after a few hours exposure.Leds are made of plastic(the led lens wich is made of silicone or acrilic) and the UV radiation even in small amount burns the plastic ,thats why they have zero UV,to protect the led.Somme will say that UV is not important because it doesnt gets deep into the water or that is harmless but if it doesnt gets deep into the water then why almost all corals have evolved to be fluorescent in UV light?I would change the most expensive LED lamp for the cheapest T5HO any time.In my opinion leds are good only in a reef tank that has corals that grow mainly from food instead of light ,like LPS and soft corals but for sps i havent seen an impressive tank lit by leds alone(in wich corals are grown from small frags not huge sps colonies introduced from the begining).I also think that T5 HO is better than MH because T5 doesnt have shimmer wich is a good thing .A lamp that creates shimmer makes a lot of shades while the uniform light of T5 have verry litle shaded areas.Altough the shimmer looks good it isnt practically good .

 

[blasterman789]

The best looking SPS tanks I've seen lately have either been 100% lit by LED or halides.

If you want to make an LED lit tank look like T5 just put plastic diffusers over the top. Not sure why were confusing light source -vs- emission size. The only drawback with LED are shadows caused by too much PAR being directed by optics. Reefbrites, etc., beat T5 badly at their own game.

 

[2smokes]

Shadows cause by too much PAR?This is the funyest thing ive read on RC.Shadows is cause by light intensity not by PAR.A green light with 0 PAR san make shadows like any otther PAR rich light source.I am a MH fan but i know what im saiyng when i sayd that T5HO beats MH because the MH creates too much shadows and shimmer.Best sps tank that i know (probably the best and most beautifull in the world )uses only T5HO.No led lamp could get even cloose to that huge growth with Acropora corals that get out from the water made by T5.Leds dont have UV in rest they have all the colors of the spectrum and intensity just as T5 and MH.Its not only the Par that matters(PAR is the ammount of blue and red light).

 

[ReefCowboy]

Shadows cause by too much PAR?This is the funyest thing ive read on RC.Shadows is cause by light intensity not by PAR.A green light with 0 PAR san make shadows like any otther PAR rich light source.I am a MH fan but i know what im saiyng when i sayd that T5HO beats MH because the MH creates too much shadows and shimmer.Best sps tank that i know (probably the best and most beautifull in the world )uses only T5HO.No led lamp could get even cloose to that huge growth with Acropora corals that get out from the water made by T5.Leds dont have UV in rest they have all the colors of the spectrum and intensity just as T5 and MH.Its not only the Par that matters(PAR is the ammount of blue and red light).

Good info on some of your posts, but there is a lot of your own opinions here my man. Ive been a big T5 guy myself for as long as i can remember, yes they grow corals really well, we all know that. LED fixtures these days do also grow corals and yes they also allow for excellent coloration as well. Some out there know how to do it, others dont.

There are many led tanks with great corals out there, and very soon we shall see them more often as more efficient led lit tanks mature.

T5's grow coral, but the flat look it provides visually is sure boring as hell. T5's are popular in Europe, we get it. Giesemann, ATI are investing on LED's since the old technology will eventually be...old.

 

[grigsy]

I love the shimmer I get from Metal Halides.

A MH tank looks more appealing to me vs T5 (flat) and better than the less than natural look I got from LEDs.

 

[zooman72]

Leds do not have UV ,its =with zero absolute even for the leds sold as UV leds(with the exception of the glass and copper leds that can put out UVB but thhose arent used in the hobby by nobody and they last just 1000 hours-like an incandescent bulb,much shorter life than T5 or MH). Only light sources made of glass like MH and T5 can put out UV and the bluish bulbs we use are verry powerfull emitting UV.Soo powerfull that can get you skin get tan after a few hours exposure.Leds are made of plastic(the led lens wich is made of silicone or acrilic) and the UV radiation even in small amount burns the plastic ,thats why they have zero UV,to protect the led.Somme will say that UV is not important because it doesnt gets deep into the water or that is harmless but if it doesnt gets deep into the water then why almost all corals have evolved to be fluorescent in UV light?I would change the most expensive LED lamp for the cheapest T5HO any time.In my opinion leds are good only in a reef tank that has corals that grow mainly from food instead of light ,like LPS and soft corals but for sps i havent seen an impressive tank lit by leds alone(in wich corals are grown from small frags not huge sps colonies introduced from the begining).I also think that T5 HO is better than MH because T5 doesnt have shimmer wich is a good thing .A lamp that creates shimmer makes a lot of shades while the uniform light of T5 have verry litle shaded areas.Altough the shimmer looks good it isnt practically good .

Shadows cause by too much PAR?This is the funyest thing ive read on RC.Shadows is cause by light intensity not by PAR.A green light with 0 PAR san make shadows like any otther PAR rich light source.I am a MH fan but i know what im saiyng when i sayd that T5HO beats MH because the MH creates too much shadows and shimmer.Best sps tank that i know (probably the best and most beautifull in the world )uses only T5HO.No led lamp could get even cloose to that huge growth with Acropora corals that get out from the water made by T5.Leds dont have UV in rest they have all the colors of the spectrum and intensity just as T5 and MH.Its not only the Par that matters(PAR is the ammount of blue and red light).

What are you smoking exactly? Much of what you are trying to relay is just flat wrong (here and in multiple other threads), and I am not even referring to the difficulty in reading your posts.

How is this thread still going with gems like this?

 

[JPMagyar]

Good info on some of your posts, but there is a lot of your own opinions here my man. Ive been a big T5 guy myself for as long as i can remember, yes they grow corals really well, we all know that. LED fixtures these days do also grow corals and yes they also allow for excellent coloration as well. Some out there know how to do it, others dont.

There are many led tanks with great corals out there, and very soon we shall see them more often as more efficient led lit tanks mature.

T5's grow coral, but the flat look it provides visually is sure boring as hell. T5's are popular in Europe, we get it. Giesemann, ATI are investing on LED's since the old technology will eventually be...old.

People have been saying that for years and yet, we still don't see a plethora of LED grown reefs. Here is my reef grown under T5 for one year and MH for one year. The first shot is January 2015 and the second shot is October 2016. I've said this over and over and over in this thread; it's not the fact that LEDs don't work; it's about the fact that there are infinitely simpler and easier solutions that work better. Lighting choice is highly subjective and this is a hobby. Just use the light you like and be happy. Who cares what others say about LEDs. The mystery to me is why all the LED lovers find it necessary to come on a thread about MH lighting and defend LED lighting.

 

[Wazzel]

People have been saying that for years and yet, we still don't see a plethora of LED grown reefs. Here is my reef grown under T5 for one year and MH for one year. The first shot is January 2015 and the second shot is October 2016. I've said this over and over and over in this thread; it's not the fact that LEDs don't work; it's about the fact that there are infinitely simpler and easier solutions that work better. Lighting choice is highly subjective and this is a hobby. Just use the light you like and be happy. Who cares what others say about LEDs. The mystery to me is why all the LED lovers find it necessary to come on a thread about MH lighting and defend LED lighting.

There are lots of LED grown tanks. Some are nice some are not. If you are not seeing any you are not looking or choosing not to see them.

As far as LED uses posting on this thread, it is quite appropriate since it is a question about people currently using LED and if they are going to keep them or not. If you really want to be picky, only current LED users should be posting to this thread, considering the nature of the question. As far as other threads, I guess it would depend on the nature of the discussion.

 

[ReefCowboy]

People have been saying that for years and yet, we still don't see a plethora of LED grown reefs. Here is my reef grown under T5 for one year and MH for one year. The first shot is January 2015 and the second shot is October 2016. I've said this over and over and over in this thread; it's not the fact that LEDs don't work; it's about the fact that there are infinitely simpler and easier solutions that work better. Lighting choice is highly subjective and this is a hobby. Just use the light you like and be happy. Who cares what others say about LEDs. The mystery to me is why all the LED lovers find it necessary to come on a thread about MH lighting and defend LED lighting.

I agree with your comments, but from when this thread started til now, many led fixtures have closed the gap and are allowing for very impressive reefs. Have you seen Sanjay's sps tank grown under radions(after it was restarted)?I have a good friend whos close to him and says hes very happy with leds, and that his tank has grown amazingly close to what the MH days brought.

Like I posted before, I am a T5 guy, ran Halide before switching to led, and can say my tank kept growing and coloring without any change. Some acros actually colored better than when with halides. The visual appeal is much nicer however, on top of a sleek fixture and my chiller not going crazy over and over during the day.

 

[biecacka]

While Sanjay's tank is super impressive, how many radions is he running on it? He was experimenting with 3 on a 40 breeder before he switched his main tank over. If he has 10 radions on it (total guess on that number as the math is easy but it's probably more) gen he has 7500$ in lights on the tank. Probably running full wattage so he isn't saving a ton of electricity and how long will it take to recoup the cost of those fixtures.
I think as the leds expand and do the users, ppl realize it takes more to light our tanks properly. Thus making saving on electricity less of a factor. My biggest thing with leds after trying them (not a bad or good thing, just a thing that makes me think) is the number of led users who supplement their tanks with T5 to prevent shadowing. In my mind it sort of defeats the purpose. But that is just my thought, I see the reasoning behind it.

Corey

 

[ReefCowboy]

While Sanjay's tank is super impressive, how many radions is he running on it? He was experimenting with 3 on a 40 breeder before he switched his main tank over. If he has 10 radions on it (total guess on that number as the math is easy but it's probably more) gen he has 7500$ in lights on the tank. Probably running full wattage so he isn't saving a ton of electricity and how long will it take to recoup the cost of those fixtures.
I think as the leds expand and do the users, ppl realize it takes more to light our tanks properly. Thus making saving on electricity less of a factor. My biggest thing with leds after trying them (not a bad or good thing, just a thing that makes me think) is the number of led users who supplement their tanks with T5 to prevent shadowing. In my mind it sort of defeats the purpose. But that is just my thought, I see the reasoning behind it.

Corey

Agree 100%. Hes running an insane amount of watts with those leds. Hes running the G2's but is soon to upgrade to G4's i believe. If I had a big tank, would be running T5's for sure. Halides are a better option, but as he said himself, the chiller is a big concern when one has three 400w halides, unless ones house is in unique conditions with weather helping keep it cool.

My point is leds can do the job as far as ability to grow coral. Efficiency and savings are another talk. On smaller tanks it is the way to go. Issue with T5's and Sanjay's tank is depth also, im not sure.