Anyone Thinking of Dumping LEDS and going back to Halides

[dunk373]

Now this is a curious way to look at it. I would wonder for the people who do not like their LEDs, what fixtures they are going with? I have head most of the LED fixtures that are less expensive are the knockoffs which to me would indicate they are probably not as good as the more expensive ones so if the people who are not liking their LED, are just using these knockoffs. Also, I would be curious to know the light colors of LEDs that people are using when they don't like LEDs. I have seen mostly that only with cool white and royal blue are not getting the job down but the additional of other frequencies of light help prompt the same growth one would get with the MH or t5. Not trying to so anyone is wrong/right but just curious because it seems there isn't enough information on people switching back to MH from LED. Also, this is going to be another one of those things that some people like and others don't.

i agree. Need more info what setup you had what setup you changed to. Just think about what leds were giving you blue and white two small spectrums. They are catching on adding different colors I think a successful led can be made I really think it can color corals even better than the mh and t5 but we have to find what the combo is. I like the look of led and am hoping it gives a better look the savings is a bonus.

 

[Goldcoastreefs]

Guys I have the the ecotech radion on my tank currently I also have used the sols and DIY with different combinations. Although the corals still grow and in some case grow pretty fast there are some corals that colors morph and don't look as colorful as they once did. Of course with the blue and royal blue on anything looks good but again nothing looks as good as my radiums. I have been using LEDs for a while now and it is somthing you might not notice right away or at all but certain colors of sps corals will change colors while others won't. I am just thinking about going back to what is tried and true. But am torn between a couple more radiums or a power module.

 

[advancebc29]

Now this is a curious way to look at it. I would wonder for the people who do not like their LEDs, what fixtures they are going with? I have head most of the LED fixtures that are less expensive are the knockoffs which to me would indicate they are probably not as good as the more expensive ones so if the people who are not liking their LED, are just using these knockoffs. Also, I would be curious to know the light colors of LEDs that people are using when they don't like LEDs. I have seen mostly that only with cool white and royal blue are not getting the job down but the additional of other frequencies of light help prompt the same growth one would get with the MH or t5. Not trying to so anyone is wrong/right but just curious because it seems there isn't enough information on people switching back to MH from LED. Also, this is going to be another one of those things that some people like and others don't.

i agree. Need more info what setup you had what setup you changed to. Just think about what leds were giving you blue and white two small spectrums. They are catching on adding different colors I think a successful led can be made I really think it can color corals even better than the mh and t5 but we have to find what the combo is. I like the look of led and am hoping it gives a better look the savings is a bonus.

+1 to both.
I have been running LEDs for almost 2 years now and have had great results in both growth and color. My LEDs are not the standard B/W setup. I was one of the first to include 420nm LEDs and quickly followed up with Red, Green/Cyan all before it was the kewl thing to do. I strongly feel that 420nm is key. Look at T5 bulbs and how much 420nm is in them.
I did months of research looking at what I considered to be successful tanks and looked at the spectral output of the lights they were using. I feel that I came very close to matching them.
I feel the number one reason for peoples disappoint with switching to LEDS is that they are greatly changing the spectrum of lights in their tanks and it really p1sses off the corals.

 

[bhazard451]

+1. Everyone is claiming these huge savings and I just can't get the math to add up. I been doing cost management and software development for 12 years and the math still eludes me. Who has kept a led fixture for over 2 years? People are upgrading to the latest and greatest every year. still searching to replace something that already works great.

I spend more in salt than any predicted savings. This is not a cheap hobby. If 20$ a month makes or breaks you you might consider goldfish.

I'm not going to knock MH/T5, as they undeniably work, and did work great for 3+ years for me. On the other hand, if you can't figure out the savings over time of leds, I would question your cost management abilities. Just because you have cheaper electricity and no heat issues, doesn't mean everyone else does. My cost of electricity is nearly double yours here in NY.

This is just a quick cost analysis of potential savings in my setup.

380w MH/T5 vs 120-180w LED. 200w+ saved.
$300-500+ chiller no longer needed
~650w chiller electric usage 650w saved ~$10month
8,000btu AC, ~800w electric usage (AC needs to turn on more) ~$10month

The money saved on a chiller could be used for a LED fixture alone. When you figure in the wattage of the lights, chiller, and AC in the room, you have a potential max of 1650w running at any given time that is no longer needed. Very forgiving electric costs at that point reach over $300 a year for me.

Right off the bat, I save $800. If I use my 120 gallon setup, add 200+w more per each 24" of length for the extra bulbs.

My DIY LED is 180w per 24" length, and ran $350. That's even overkill, and can be adjusted to a $250 or less per 24" of tank length. Assuming a custom ratio chinese box can provide similar results over time, that cost is $160 per fixture, using three for a 72" 120 gallon tank.

At minimum, assuming the leds can provide 75% of the growth and equal or better coloring with a full spectrum led setup, the $480 used to light my 120 gallon tank, can be made back within 2 years of bulb changes alone, had I used 3x250MH +T5. That doesn't even take in the electricity savings of $250+ a year.

By year three, I would have saved $1000+ over lighting my tank with leds compared to MH/T5. If growth performance matches in that time, you basically just "lit" $1,000 on fire staying with MH. $1,000 is a lot to many reefers.

Goldfish? I could take a vacation and scuba in a real reef for that kind of money.

 

[JBarnes]

After six months of AI Sols and very little growth and loss of colors I switched back to T5's. LED's are the strategic direction for the industry no doubt about that. But, additional experimentation and design changes are necessary before we get to end all solution. I couldn't agree more about the savings in electricity and bulb replacement but at the end of the day you want your tank to look great regardless of the cost. Jerry.

 

[advancebc29]

After six months of AI Sols and very little growth and loss of colors I switched back to T5's. LED's are the strategic direction for the industry no doubt about that. But, additional experimentation and design changes are necessary before we get to end all solution. I couldn't agree more about the savings in electricity and bulb replacement but at the end of the day you want your tank to look great regardless of the cost. Jerry.

JBarnes, What T5 bulbs where you running before you switched? This is what I was talking about in my earlier post. Sounds like you drastically changed the light spectrum in your tank and thus had bad results.

You could get the same exact bad results with changing your T5 bulbs to a very different spectrum or by removing large chunks of sprectrum which is I am guessing what happened when you went to LEDs.

 

[Tmoriarty]

I have found the radiums to be no more impressive then my cheap artemis 20k bulbs. The colors of the coral are the same the visible spectrum is the same, growth appears to be similar if not the same.

As for LED's I have been contemplating going to LED's for a while but havn't made the jump yet. I am about to build a fixture for my seahorse build where I can test some growth on easier to keep corals and see if the spectrum is something I like or not.

Tyler

 

[bayoupr]

I have been running SOL blue's for 18 months and have no problems with growth of my corals or colors. I switched from my MH's to Led's because of the heat factor. I ran fans over my sump which then became a huge evaporation factor. Sure I could run a chiller but then figure out what the monthly electric bill would be then. My total system volumn is 225g.

 

[power boat jim]

I noted after swithching from MH to LEDs a drop off in growth in some corals also. After about 8 months it dawned on me to look at a thermometer. The tank lost 8 deg of heat in the switch. I boosted the temp up a bit and now most corals are back to having to be fragged every couple of months. I also believe it takes nearly a year for all the coral to acclimate to the change from MH to LED and lets face it there are a few corals that dont like the change at all. After over 2 years with with LEDs the advantages far outweigh the disadvantages for me. I wont be switching back.

As far the as cost savings go, its one of scale and time. The more MH you have to begin with the more LEDs will save you in cooling cost in your house and tank as well as in bulb replacement.

 

[BigAl2007]

I switched to LED over 3 years ago and the only "problem" I had was not realizing the need for acclimation to LED.

I have LED on both of my tanks now and wouldn't go back to T5 or MH ( I was a big fan of T5s) simply because for my tanks and personal likes it's LED. I get good growth throughout and the colors are as good as or better than previous. I changed from a MH/T5 fixture on one tank and from PC on another.

 

[Mmiller40gt]

I'm not going to knock MH/T5, as they undeniably work, and did work great for 3+ years for me. On the other hand, if you can't figure out the savings over time of leds, I would question your cost management abilities. Just because you have cheaper electricity and no heat issues, doesn't mean everyone else does. My cost of electricity is nearly double yours here in NY.

This is just a quick cost analysis of potential savings in my setup.

380w MH/T5 vs 120-180w LED. 200w+ saved.
$300-500+ chiller no longer needed
~650w chiller electric usage 650w saved ~$10month
8,000btu AC, ~800w electric usage (AC needs to turn on more) ~$10month

The money saved on a chiller could be used for a LED fixture alone. When you figure in the wattage of the lights, chiller, and AC in the room, you have a potential max of 1650w running at any given time that is no longer needed. Very forgiving electric costs at that point reach over $300 a year for me.

Right off the bat, I save $800. If I use my 120 gallon setup, add 200+w more per each 24" of length for the extra bulbs.

My DIY LED is 180w per 24" length, and ran $350. That's even overkill, and can be adjusted to a $250 or less per 24" of tank length. Assuming a custom ratio chinese box can provide similar results over time, that cost is $160 per fixture, using three for a 72" 120 gallon tank.

At minimum, assuming the leds can provide 75% of the growth and equal or better coloring with a full spectrum led setup, the $480 used to light my 120 gallon tank, can be made back within 2 years of bulb changes alone, had I used 3x250MH +T5. That doesn't even take in the electricity savings of $250+ a year.

By year three, I would have saved $1000+ over lighting my tank with leds compared to MH/T5. If growth performance matches in that time, you basically just "lit" $1,000 on fire staying with MH. $1,000 is a lot to many reefers.

Goldfish? I could take a vacation and scuba in a real reef for that kind of money.

Ok lets do my tank, we can skip the rest of the pump and just focus on lights.
My maristar was 6 months old with lumatek switchable ballasts, ebay delivered for 250.
I picked up a 1/4 HP chiller for 75$ local. Pulls 400 watts 3 X a day for 30 min each cycle. (I really dont need it, i just like to keep the tank within 1 degree, without it it would not go over 82).

Using the RC electric calculator
Cost of lighting to run 650 wattsX 10 hours X0.078 = per month 15.42$
Cost of chiller (same math as above) 1.42 per month

Replace that with 200 watts of LED (and the light output wont be near equivalent, but that aside) Would cost me 4.74 per month. Total saving for me to switch 12.10$ a month.

Lights cost me 45$ each for 2 pheonix and 19$ each for 2 T5's. Yearly cost of bulbs is 128$.

Two Radions would cost me 1500$ and consume 140 watts each. So lets see where MY break even point is. 10 hours a day @ 7.8 cents per kwh

Year one of MH total cost (chiller included) electric plus buying the unit 452.08
Year one two Radions and electric 1579.68

Year two MH replacing bulbs and previous year cost 782.16
Year two Radions with previous year cost 1659.36

Year 3 MH cost, again replacing bulbs and including past years cost 1112.24
Year 3 Radion cost with previous years 1739.04

Year 4 MH cost (same as above) 1442.32
Year 4 Radion (same as above) 1818.72

Year 5 MH cost (same) 1772.40
Year 5 Radion (same) 1898.40

Year 6 MH cost (same) 2102.48
Year 6 Radion cost (same) 1978.08


So 6 years to finally save 100$. That is *if* they last that long and *if* they provide 100% of the results. You could also do the same math with a cheaper unit but you still looking at 3+ years to break even. By that time something newer and better will be out and your LED fixture will be obsolete.

So Ill wait 6 years and when the rest of yall have sunk millions into this, then maybe there will be something worth ditching the tried and true gold standard for. Again this is JUST MY situation. I know some pay 3-4X my electric rate. There are others in Texas that are pay half of what I do. There is even a new plan where nights are free so many people have signed up and running the lights on a reverse schedule and paying nothing, notta for electric lighting.

I almost forgot one more point. My friend upgraded (if you call it that) his 280 to leds. Now he has 2 300 watt heaters running during the lighting hours to keep his tank from dropping below 77. That is 600 watts an hour wasted.

 

[James77]

Just because you have cheaper electricity and no heat issues, doesn't mean everyone else does. My cost of electricity is nearly double yours here in NY.
.

Exactly! But just because you have more expensive electricity.....does not mean everyone does.

Most the country has quite low electric rates and temps that do not require a chiller. I have never needed one, heat is easily managed through fans even on the 90 degree summer days. When it hits over 100, yeah I do have some heat problems but having a room AC solves that. But is seems to be a given or "no brainer" on RC (not saying you said this) that LEDs always equal these astronomical savings.

This is just a quick cost analysis of potential savings in my setup.

Potential savings usually tend to be pretty optimistic. What if a Radion fixture completely dies 1 month out of warranty? What if the parts to fix it are no longer made?

With mine, the electric savings of LED over halide is about $10/months, though this is with LED supplemtal "actinics". So over the course of 5 years, LEDs would save me maybe $600. For 2 Radium bulbs every year- a quite expensive bulb- I am looking at about $750 over 5 years. So I would save $1,350 over the course of 5 years......or a little over 20 bucks a month. That is again assuming zero problems with the LEDs, but then again there is always the potential for halide ballast failure( I use Lumateks with 5 years warranty).

$20/month is crap. It costs me almost $70 to fill my tank, I could drive a bit less( I drive around for fun a lot) and save the same. I have a hanful of credit cards ( about $4500 worth, way too much for my liking) that are accruing interest at the rate of $75/month- I could pay those off and save. There are quite a few places where one can save substantial money. The one real hobby I have and enjoy is keeping fish tanks. I am not in it to try and save less than a dollar per day. To me, planning out these LED fixtures and the potential savings over the course of 5-10 years is just plain silly. It is not money you will instantly have i your hand. You will not have the $1350 in your hand (in my case) all at once to buy all these awesome coral. I would not even notice the puky 20 bucks in my account each month .

 

[manix man]

Interestingly over here in the UK it's getting to the point secondhand MH and T5 units are worthless. In just over a year the secondhand price of the units has about halfed. No-one really wants them anymore, supply is out stripping demand.

 

[power boat jim]

Its not always about saving money, my halides used to heat the fish room (our back tv room) to 82 even with the air on. With the LEDs that room now is 7 deg cooler and the room is comfortable. Sometimes its a quality of life issue. LEDs fit the bill, and JAMES77 Ill take the puky $20.00 bucks a month if you dont want it!!!

 

[billwill]

I've already changed back from the black box 120W LED's back to MH. Didn't really like the look/color of the LED's and since changing back to MH my growth and colors have been spectacular in SPS/LPS dominated tank. I've had no experience with high end LED's so I can't really comment on those. LED's are very tempting though because we're having an unseasonably hot summer and these MH lights with the chiller really heat up the house. Electricity cost is low on the list for me; if it weren't I wouldn't have a reef tank.

 

[gskidmor]

I see some people quoting the startup price for two Radions - about $1500 - but what about the startup price for a MH setup? When I was looking for my new setup, MH setups that had T5's included weren't much cheaper than a Radion sadly and many were much more expensive AND I would have to replace those bulbs ever year or two. So unless you just buy the cheapest MH ballast and the cheapest reflector (no T-5's) and the cheapest bulbs, only then will you get anything that is considerably cheaper than a Radion - which is one of the more expensive setups. If you go with the AI-Sol, it's about half of the Radion to start.

MH+T5 or Radion, you're too far off either way to start just on initial setup if you compare apples to apples, i.e., pre-made MH/T-5 fixtures to a ready made LED fixture (Radion). If you build a piece meal MH system, you can build a DIY LED for maybe a couple hundred.

So startup costs are about equal - it's why I went with LED even though I'm very comfortable with MH. I've personally always had to run my AC during the summer months with MH which always added at least $100 a month to my electric bill. Now if the Navy commercials are right and 80% of people live by the water (oceans to keep it simple), maybe the temps are more temperate and don't require AC.

LIke PB Jim said, there are other issues to consider - I always hated how the MH lit up the entire room unless you built a full canopy around it...

I like hearing the comments that people are having success with LEDs - it makes me feel a little better about my purchase!

 

[bhazard451]

Interesting how everyone fighting back on costs, goes and uses the most expensive led fixture on the market as the baseline. There is a huge difference in spending $750 to light a 120 gallon with a DIY fixture of leds, over using 3 Radions at $2250, while achieving the exact same performance. If the Radion was the only choice on the market, I would be in 100% agreement that MH/T5 would be the way to go.

A DIY fixture won't go obsolete, as you have the ability to replace individual leds at less than $4 a led at will whenever you wanted to. Radions are already obsolete. The replace a fixture every year argument is very true for a Radion and non-modular fixtures, but not a DIY light.

You can't ignore DIY or cheap boxes as a valid lighting solution, because everyone has done some sort of DIY work if they own a reef, either via plumbing, drilling, creating stands, overflows, sumps, etc.

Using $750 as the full base cost for my 120, compared to changing 3 phoenix bulbs and 8 T5 bulbs per year, I make up the cost in bulbs and electricity by the end of year two. The numbers look quite different now don't they? Initial cost decreases considerably more if you buy chinese led lights or used led fixtures, since those MH numbers stated are based off of used equipment.

 

[bhazard451]

I've already changed back from the black box 120W LED's back to MH. Didn't really like the look/color of the LED's and since changing back to MH my growth and colors have been spectacular in SPS/LPS dominated tank. I've had no experience with high end LED's so I can't really comment on those. LED's are very tempting though because we're having an unseasonably hot summer and these MH lights with the chiller really heat up the house. Electricity cost is low on the list for me; if it weren't I wouldn't have a reef tank.

Did it happen to only use Blue and Cool White in it? There-in lies the problem. My chinese 120w originally was CW:RB and I was not fully satisfied with the color either. Once I added more varied leds into it, it has been a complete turnaround. It easily matches how the tank looked compared to when MH/T5s were over them. Adding only a few violets, reds, greens, and multiple kelvin whites changes the look dramatically.

I haven't seen one person who switched back actually try a fixture which incorporates more spectrum before making a judgement on leds.

 

[Mmiller40gt]

The used market may not be a fair comparison. But they are pennies on the dollar and you can find some nice almost new fixtures for very cheap. The ebay priced for the new model LED fixtures are almost retail. Even if you consider a new fixture. The maristar two with bulbs delivered is 599$ delivered and covers a 48 inch tank. So buying new I would break even after 3-4 years instead of 6. Many people are already have a lighting setup so upfront cost is essentially zero. That pushes the break even point waaay out.

If you wanna compare DIY then you can DIY a halides t5 setup for very cheap as well. Many of us prefer the nice clean look of a manufactured fixture to a DIY that is time consuming and looks kinda rough unless they go in a canopy.
If you wanna compare the cheap china leds the fair comparison would be an aquatraders fixture (cheap china knock offs). 2 China led units cost 400$, one 48 inch odyssea costs 299$. Still going to take you over a year to break even. The warranty on the china units require you to ship them back for almost the cost of the actual unit, odssea has no warranty so its equally a wash. FWIW oddsea sucks, but the china led units have not been time tested either.

 

[Mmiller40gt]

Interesting how everyone fighting back on costs, goes and uses the most expensive led fixture on the market as the baseline. There is a huge difference in spending $750 to light a 120 gallon with a DIY fixture of leds, over using 3 Radions at $2250, while achieving the exact same performance..

I would argue it is not the "same performance". On top of that a quality warrantied MH fixture mentioned above would light that same tank for 599$. No diy and a super clean look