Anyone Thinking of Dumping LEDS and going back to Halides

[Tickle]

Interesting how everyone fighting back on costs, goes and uses the most expensive led fixture on the market as the baseline. There is a huge difference in spending $750 to light a 120 gallon with a DIY fixture of leds, over using 3 Radions at $2250, while achieving the exact same performance. If the Radion was the only choice on the market, I would be in 100% agreement that MH/T5 would be the way to go.

A DIY fixture won't go obsolete, as you have the ability to replace individual leds at less than $4 a led at will whenever you wanted to. Radions are already obsolete. The replace a fixture every year argument is very true for a Radion and non-modular fixtures, but not a DIY light.

You can't ignore DIY or cheap boxes as a valid lighting solution, because everyone has done some sort of DIY work if they own a reef, either via plumbing, drilling, creating stands, overflows, sumps, etc.

Using $750 as the full base cost for my 120, compared to changing 3 phoenix bulbs and 8 T5 bulbs per year, I make up the cost in bulbs and electricity by the end of year two. The numbers look quite different now don't they? Initial cost decreases considerably more if you buy chinese led lights or used led fixtures, since those MH numbers stated are based off of used equipment.

+1 I built my led fixture for my 40 for about 150 and that was including namebrand meanwells. Its a 100 watt unit that i only run at about 60% and it replaced a 400 watt 20k mh bulb. My mh doesnt even hold a candle to my leds. 1/2 the size on everything and not as much heat. Everything ive put under these has really taken off mostly sps. I have mine set to ramp up from 10% to 60-75% throught the course of the day and then they hold there for 2-3 hours and then start dimming back down again. I think that part is key. I never once acclimated a coral to leds, just plop it in and forget about it. I will point out im using the 420,455nm,14k,10k lights. I think the diversity is key as well. Just an example for you is i bought a birdnest from a friend who had it under a 6 bulb t5 unit on his 55. it was about 1 inch tall then with no.branches. 1 month in my tank and its a little over 3 inches with about 10 branches. Im using a Diy multichip fixture. If you do some shopping around you can find 10watt chips for under 3 bucks a chip. No I will not switch back to mh.

the phone in my hands

 

[gskidmor]

I wanted the super clean look myself when I bought a LED fixture. I ignored the used market in my comparison as it's not consistent, that is, one person cant be guaranteed to get as great a deal as the next.

I'm starting to wonder if a lot of people who switched to LED and quickly (I'll define that as a year or less) abandoned them went through the same thing I went through when I switched from CF to MH - with CF my corals had great growth and coral. MY LFS talked up the benefits of MH and after 4.5 years of CF I had a MH pendant over my tank and I couldn't have been unhappier - until I gave it a year and then things were looking good.

It's odd too - when I first really started researching MH there were a lot of threads asking one particular question "is this too much light" - something I don't see with the LEDs and I'm assuming it's because many have a hard time believing that groups of this little 3 -5 mm electronic component can put out more light than a MH. And, I had the same problem too. The Radion's box/instructions said it was equivalent to a 270w MH but some of the PAR reading's I've seen people post show it considerably more powerful than a brand new 250w MH and if the quantum meters under-read the blue spectrum by upwards of 40%, it could be closer to a 400w MH if not more.

Why do I say this? when I first got my Radion, I purchased a few frags from someone that had them growing under a 12" deep frag tank covered by 400w MH bulbs that were 6 months old. The frags he cut were from the top of the colonies in his frag tank and he mailed them off. I had my Radion peak at 100% all channels for about 2 hours and as I've been successfully doing for 10+ years, I did little acclimation as I figured a fixture comparable to a 250w MH should pose no problem to a coral coming from a 400w MH. I've done this more times than I can count in the past when I had 250W MH over my tank - is it correct, I guess if you go by the die hard rules no, but up until now it's never failed me. Within one week all the frags that were 8" below the water with the Radion 12" above the tank were bleached white/dead. It wasn't until I turned the Radion down to 45% that I stopped bleaching corals coming from 250w/400w MH tanks.

Now if a single Radion can do that, I think I should be seeing more threads asking, is this LED fixture too much light - but I don't. Obviously, I had a little bit of a learning curve to come up and my current batch of frags are encrusting rather quickly under my Radion at 45% with just 3 channels (vs 5 before) on. I've even ordered the new TIR lenses which should allow me to run my radion at probably 25% with the same affect! Imagine that, using about 30/35 watts of LED to get the same affect as a high powered MH!!

Now I"m assuming that I will be successful when I make the following statement - I can now grow corals with 30-35 watts, get great color, use less energy (better for the environment and the summer electric grid), get a great looking fixture, get actinics, no longer need a chiller/continuous AC, no longer have to replace bulbs, and no longer light my entire room! What's not to like...assuming that I can get what I'm hoping for and what others have claimed to achieve with my fixture!

 

[bhazard451]

If you wanna compare the cheap china leds the fair comparison would be an aquatraders fixture (cheap china knock offs). 2 China led units cost 400$, one 48 inch odyssea costs 299$. Still going to take you over a year to break even. The warranty on the china units require you to ship them back for almost the cost of the actual unit, odssea has no warranty so its equally a wash. FWIW oddsea sucks, but the china led units have not been time tested either.

Not true at all. Aquatraders Odyssea/Beamworks whatever units don't even hold a candle to something like this, in power, quality or price. Not only that, you can customize the led layout with whatever leds you want.

http://www.aliexpress.com/store/pro...-15W-4R-4G-4B-with-Lens/317880_587678783.html

I've opened up and dissected several of these chinese units, and most of them are very good quality. I have several shots of the internals of several chinese fixtures in the chinese thread, and I even re-used one to make my DIY led light.

The guys at this company have been great to work with. I still keep in touch with them.

Warranty Info:
"1. All our products come with Full Factory waranty:
EverGrow warrants that our products are free of defects for a period of THREE years.
We will repair or at our option replace any product that is defective.
The warranty covers defects in workmanship and defective components.
It does not cover damage caused by abuse, moisture damage or water.

For the first year
2. Parts:
A. Extra Blue/White/Violet(420nm) LEDs: Total amount less then 8pcs will be sent out with Orders, 100% FREE;
B. Wrong packing/Missing Parts such as Plugs/Hangers: Will be sent out in 24 hours during working days, 100% FREE;
3. Not working:
C. Parts such as LEDs/Drivers/Dimmers: Will be sent out in 24 hours in 24 hours during working days if you can repair it yourself (We will help), 100% FREE;
D. Please return to our Agent in USA or EverGrow in China if you don't think you can repair it: Parts/Shipping, 100% FREE;
E. Please return to our Agnet in USA or EverGrow in China if light totally can't work: New light will be sent out in 3-5 working days after problem confirming;

For the 2-3 year
F. Free Parts such as LEDs/Plugs/Driver/Fans/Dimmers: Will be sent out in 24 hours during working days if you can repair it, customers pay shipping;
G. Please return to our Agent in USA or EverGrow in China if you don't think you can repair it: Free Parts, customers pay shipping."

 

[bhazard451]

I would argue it is not the "same performance". On top of that a quality warrantied MH fixture mentioned above would light that same tank for 599$. No diy and a super clean look

You're right. My DIY doesn't match a Radion it performance. It BEATS it handily, has more power at 180w full blast, and has more color options, for less than half the price.

Not super clean?
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2183576

 

[Mmiller40gt]

You're right. My DIY doesn't match a Radion it performance. It BEATS it handily, has more power at 180w full blast, and has more color options, for less than half the price.

Not super clean?
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2183576

For sure not super clean. And why the fans with LEDS? And again another empty LED tank. Wish those with all the opinions on LED's actually had tank pictures with long term success.

 

[gskidmor]

The components themselves can get hot even if they don't radiate the heat in to the tank and keeping them cooler increases the efficiency and life the LED

 

[Mmiller40gt]

FWIW my current tank has been up less than 3 months. Not super clean, but close. I need to get the 2 wires straight. The desk on the side no longer has 2 part as I replaced with a calcium reactor.
There are some brown frags. I bought a guys LED frag tank complete with 60 frags. I moved them all under the halides and within a week they started chaning color and growing. They were growing under his setup by slowly and brown. Then I flipped the tank, pumps, and DIY led setup for what I paid for it. My lady had ordered a nice led fixture but after seeing the color change of the frags in the first week called and canceled. She is keeping the halides on her tank.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFjGtckvpvc&hd=1

 

[Tickle]

I also want to agree with the too much light question. I moved the livestock out of my 40 to a 10 temporarily to deal with some bryopsis i had. I popped my light fixture on the 10 gallon and ran it at 10% which is the lowest they will go before shutting off. My corals looked upset and my birdnest started loosing all its color. I started raising the % of the lights with no improvement over a week or so. I recently put everything back in the 40 and its making a great recovery. I now also see my lfs going with leds also.
Definatley not the cleanest and wire loom wouldnt hurt but nowhere near as big as some if the units ive seen

the phone in my hands

 

[James77]

Its not always about saving money, my halides used to heat the fish room (our back tv room) to 82 even with the air on. With the LEDs that room now is 7 deg cooler and the room is comfortable. Sometimes its a quality of life issue. LEDs fit the bill, and JAMES77 Ill take the puky $20.00 bucks a month if you dont want it!!!

Not the first one to want me to cut a check out since I "don't want the $20" . Its just plain ridiculous to me to cast out and plan these savings on LEDs when for some of us, it equates to $20. As I have said, I am not in this hobby to pinch pennies, if it gets that bad I will break down my tanks. Now if my setup was running a chiller very often, and I had heat issues....LEDs make sense.

In the dead heat of summer, my licing room is a bit stuffy and humid with the tank. If a fan does not cut it, the AC goes on for a couple hours. Not every single person suffers from hot tanks and stupid electric rates. LEDs do not always equal substantial savings.

 

[Goldcoastreefs]

View attachment ImageUploadedByTapatalk1345246394.844925.jpg

250w Radiums

 

[James77]

The problem with DIY LED fixtures is they lack a lot of the features of the commerical ones, plus the appearance as well is not the best without some very good skill. The old slab of aluminum with LEDs stuck to it looks like crap if you have an open top tank with nice aquarium furniture. Not everyone has the skills and ability or they dont even want to build their own. I agree the Radion is meh at best, but it is amongst the bes looking fixture. My halide setup has finished pendants and a reefbrite strip, and it looks great.

Im also a little skeptical on just being able to plug in new LEDs to these DIY fixtures. Will the voltages and amperages not being changing at all?

 

[my2girls]

I noted after swithching from MH to LEDs a drop off in growth in some corals also. After about 8 months it dawned on me to look at a thermometer. The tank lost 8 deg of heat in the switch. I boosted the temp up a bit and now most corals are back to having to be fragged every couple of months. I also believe it takes nearly a year for all the coral to acclimate to the change from MH to LED and lets face it there are a few corals that dont like the change at all. After over 2 years with with LEDs the advantages far outweigh the disadvantages for me. I wont be switching back.

As far the as cost savings go, its one of scale and time. The more MH you have to begin with the more LEDs will save you in cooling cost in your house and tank as well as in bulb replacement.

^^^ This is exactly how I feel about MH vs. LEDs. Nobody has patience anymore. It takes time (sometimes lots) for corals to acclimate to LEDs. Reefers that switch back before a years time are just impatient.

Heat from halides is a MAJOR problem unless you live in Alaska. Some reefers are just better at managing tank temp than others. Halides DO affect room temperature which impacts your tank and your wallet. I'm glad Jim pointed it out. Heat added during the winter months is the only benefit I can recognize.

My last thought... I'm all for spending money on this hobby. If someone wants to buy the latest and greatest lighting every year then more power to them. Buy one of each type of lighting and switch though them each month, I don't care. However, I really don't understand why anyone would want to buy older technology. It is clear that LEDs are more than capable... even the now "old school" blue and white fixtures. :smurf:

 

[James77]

Heat from halides is a MAJOR problem unless you live in Alaska. Some reefers are just better at managing tank temp than others.

No, it is not a MAJOR problem for the majority of halide owners. Most do not even run chillers, all over the country. Rhode Island is pretty hot most the year- you are right next to me in CT, from June on this year it has been well into the 80s most the time. Far from Alaska...would you not agree? Not once has my tank temp been an issue, and I have only run the AC on the really humid days. Even the fans on top the tank rarely come on. I've NEVER needed a chiller on any of my tanks with all sorts of halides from 150 watts to 400 watts.

Sure if you put 800 watts of halides in a closed canopy with the lights 5 inches off the water you will have problems, but that is poor use of them. There are pretty easy steps to managing the heat, simple computer fans solve 90% of most peopls heat issues.

 

[my2girls]

We are practically neighbors. I completely disagree with you on the heat issue. Like I said, you are probably good at managing it.

I dont need fans or a chiller anymore. The house stays cool. Halide fixtures blow like the winds of Hades. Hot as H3LL! No thanks, been there, done that.

 

[gskidmor]

Maybe you work from home - but how do you know your fans don't come on often? Another issue to consider is how much water do you evaporate from your system? I have about a total of 75 gallons in my system and I have to replace about 5 gallons every 7 days for evaporation.

I lived in Rochester, NY, Buffalo, NY, and Cleveland, OH and heat from MH were a problem in all but the winter months. Out here in Irvine which seldom seems to get above 80 heat from MH is a major problems for the posters on the southern Cali forum. For someone that always talks about how wattage is converted to heat in a tank, your tank seems to live in a wattage void if your MH's (unless you're only using 150/175's) have no affect on your system. If the outside ambient temps are in the 80's and your house isn't heating up, your house is very shaded, you're running the AC more than you realize, or physics don't work in your part of the world.

 

[Mmiller40gt]

Really? U think people should wait a year to allow the corals to adjust to new lighting?? For those with thousands of $$ in corals that comment alone is a deal breaker. What about adding a new coral? Gotta wait a year for it to come back? I can buy a coral that came out of the ocean yesterday and within a week it will b adjust and growing under halides.

Wanna spell the end of LEDs? Get the companies to advertise that "in just one year, you will Start to have the same results as a metal halide". Lol. Smh

 

[gskidmor]

That comment has a lot of truth to it - in a world that wants immediate results having to wait that long to get corals to grow good would make many abandon the hobby. I do have to say though that since I've got the Radion dialed in I've been getting decent results - though it's been less than a month [since I got it dialed in such that it doesn't immediately kill everything in the top half of the tank]. I will have to start taking full tank shots to track progress. I really think people cook their corals with the LEDs and don't realize it not to mention all the questions about spectrum that dog LEDs...

 

[gskidmor]

What I think would help this thread is if those that are having great success with LED would post some pics and give some details on what settings they're using...

 

[advancebc29]

I feel that my post are never read on this site. If you switch from one light tech to another and completely ignore spectrum like I am sure most of you have that switched to led then switched back are doing you are going to have all sorts of issues. You can have the same negative results by changing to different bulbs in a t5 setup or changing to a completely different halide bulb.
Long story short our tanks don't like major change and a major change in spectrum light output is a major change. If you look around you will see some major success of reef tanks switching to LEDs with great results because they tried to match the spectrum output of their current lights

Sent from my phone so ignore mistakes

 

[KCombs]

this is really a pretty good discussion with intelligent and cooler heads prevailing...

would all the contributors and lurkers please give this thread a good rating...
I'm voting 5 star....
I especially like the thorough and polite rebuttals from the pro LED hobbyist