Anyone Thinking of Dumping LEDS and going back to Halides

[reefer91]

Somewhat interesting thread that I seem to have forgotten about... I do have one thing to add that I believe is overlooked. Honestly, I hate to say it like this, but I can't really think of another manner in which to convey my thoughts.

Keeping a reef, especially an SPS dominated one, with great results requires multiple variables to meet a certain threshold *as well as* be in harmony. To do well isn't complicated. To do the best, and squeeze out the final drops of potential, certainly is complicated. Lighting is only one of those variables. In my opinion, a large amount of the excellent reefs on this website would still be very nice utilizing any decent light fixture whether it be T5, LED, or MH (maybe not just as nice, but only marginally different). Frankly, I feel like a decent number of people documenting their issues as LED problems probably wouldn't have the 99th percentile results they are looking for anyways. They just don't have "it". I don't mean that in an offensive or LED apologetic manner, but I think some people are pretty unrealistic with their ideas and goals of their system design/equipment/skills/discipline. No one wants to admit that maybe they aren't worthy of something near TOTM status after so much passion, time and MONEY has been spent on the system. Does this mean that LED lighting in not an issue? No, it is still imperfect. This is really a testament to what I consider to be the crux of the issue: MH and T5 are excellent examples of versatile tools. They meet the minimum threshold easily *and* can easily fit the specific lighting needs of any system. LED's, by design, are not broad answers to the numerous specific possible questions each individual system may ask. I believe MH and T5 are essentially handicaps. They prevent the need to change any other variable to achieve overall balance. I don't mean that with a negative connotation, and I certainly don't disagree with their use. I don't look down on anyone who uses them either. Many people want something that "just works" without having to worry about the unknowns. As much as we think we know about lighting, we really don't know about what works (MH and T5), and why, that much more than about LED's or the adjustments necessary to the other variables when implementing them.

This is just the stream of conscious resulting from my observations and reflections on the subject. I could probably write 6 pages in any direction this subject could take us haha.

Bottom line is to do what works because that is ultimately what will make the masses happy (personal results :dance, but to advance as a hobby, some of us will need to think a little differently and experiment.

 

[Ron Reefman]

lol

+1 my less expensive new leds have a higher PAR than my 5 MH bulb fixture! And the days of leds having a outrageous up front cost are over as long as you are willing to shop around and not buy the silly EcoTech, AI or a few other crazy manufacturers. :beer:

 

[Mike de Leon]

Mike, is that the same coral?

yes. very difficult to take a pic. one was a top down shot..
I really think that ppl need to have their own first hand experience before they can make any claims on LED.
As for me I am not going back. There's more pros than cons...

 

[rrasco]

rrasco,
My grandpa and dad taught me this long ago. I teach my kids the same:

1. Learn from your mistakes= SMART
2. Learn from someone else's mistakes= SMARTER

I do learn from other people's mistakes, but you have to have the experience yourself at some point if you wish to make your own mistakes and actually learn more intimately about it.

"To acquire knowledge, one must study; but to acquire wisdom, one must observe." -Marilyn vos Savant

Out of those fixtures you posted, personally, I'd try the Maxspect, but honestly, I don't think I'll ever buy a fixture, just build them. I don't like being limited, DIY can always be modified or fixed if something goes wrong. Plus it's cheaper and tailored to your application. Easily upgradeable too. If the emitters wear out, I can replace them for a fraction of the cost, as opposed to buying a whole new off-the-shelf fixture.

I dont think anyone in this thread is disputing that LED's work. What is being said is that MH's work BETTER as far as growth and coloration and many of us have seen this first hand. I grew SPS under AI SOL Blues for 2 years and was far from impressed compared to MH systems. I don't think it because we are doing it wrong as you state, I think it is because some of us have actually used both styles and prefer MH to satisfy our own tastes.

I believe there are quite a few posters in here absolutely bashing LEDs. I'd need to go back and read more, since I didn't re-read the OP when this thread was revived, but that was the general feel this thread has been headed.

If you want to use MH, you won't hear me complain. I just don't want people saying LEDs don't work, because they do.

 

[Ron Reefman]

I dont think anyone in this thread is disputing that LED's work. What is being said is that MH's work BETTER as far as growth and coloration and many of us have seen this first hand. I grew SPS under AI SOL Blues for 2 years and was far from impressed compared to MH systems. I don't think it because we are doing it wrong as you state, I think it is because some of us have actually used both styles and prefer MH to satisfy our own tastes.

I had MH and didn't buy AI Sols for 2 reasons, 1) they are way over priced and 2) they aren't a very good light (as bhazard451 alread said). Hey I don't like the new AI Vega much better and the EcoTech Radion (old or new) isn't much better. I wouldn't buy either of them. To spend that kind of money on a half good led is silly, so I didn't. I did trade a MH for a Radion and used it over my 24g frag tank for 5 months. It worked OK on a small, shallow tank. But it's now either up for sale or going over my refugium/DSB. The new EverGrow leds are a bit better and WAY cheaper!

 

[power boat jim]

Will repost pics when I figure out how.

 

[sirreal63]

Let me help Jim.

 

[sirreal63]

My favorite part: people bashing LEDs who have not used them, for whatever reason.

LEDs work, if you don't have success with them, there are a few scenarios:

1. You are doing it wrong
2. You wouldn't have success with a reef to begin with
3. You are doing it wrong
4. You bought the wrong fixture
5. You are doing it wrong
6. You built the wrong fixture

No question that some people burned up the sps with led's from improper acclimation. That doesn't explain how long term experienced sps people like MedRed, Chadfarmer and others who properly acclimated their tanks and noticed the changes in coloration and decided to switch back. The difference is not in growing sps, but the changes in coloration and if it's important to you or not. I know Chad personally and his skills are not questionable and his ability to grow sps is as good as anyone's. Do you really think it is appropriate to say they did it wrong? I don't mean to pick on you here but how many years have you kept sps and under what lights?

 

[power boat jim]

<a href="http://s1114.beta.photobucket.com/user/powerboatjim1/media/2012/DSC00171_zps49b6f524.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1114.photobucket.com/albums/k532/powerboatjim1/2012/DSC00171_zps49b6f524.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo DSC00171_zps49b6f524.jpg"/></a>

Heres another, These are old I will try to get some new ones up later in the weekend when the teenager can help me.

 

[power boat jim]

<a href="http://s1114.beta.photobucket.com/user/powerboatjim1/media/2012/DSC00170_zpse3bb70e0.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1114.photobucket.com/albums/k532/powerboatjim1/2012/DSC00170_zpse3bb70e0.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo DSC00170_zpse3bb70e0.jpg"/></a>

 

[rrasco]

No question that some people burned up the sps with led's from improper acclimation. That doesn't explain how long term experienced sps people like MedRed, Chadfarmer and others who properly acclimated their tanks and noticed the changes in coloration and decided to switch back. The difference is not in growing sps, but the changes in coloration and if it's important to you or not. I know Chad personally and his skills are not questionable and his ability to grow sps is as good as anyone's. Do you really think it is appropriate to say they did it wrong? I don't mean to pick on you here but how many years have you kept sps and under what lights?

IMO, that would fall under buying the wrong fixture or building it wrong. What fixtures are they using?

I agree with your assessment. I have noticed some coloration changes in some of my SPS, they tend to go more green or red. To me, that means I'm missing something and for the time being it also means I built it wrong. It's working, but it could be better. I don't have a ton of different SPS to use as a basis though, and most of the ones I do have were green or red to begin with...coming from a MH tank. My fixture is DIY and has several different emitters, but it also lacks some. Cyan, green, and UV to be specific. Since I built this thing, it's fairly easy for me to add to it or upgrade it to accommodate those short-fallings.

Things are still evolving and we are all learning from each other and on our own, but as things progress, I definitely want to be on that front line.

 

[gbru316]

Do you really think it is appropriate to say they did it wrong?

I don't think they are doing it wrong. The problem is that consumers and manufacturers are misapplying the technology.

"Wrong" implies someone is at fault. No one is at fault here. LED lighting is still developing, and there are going to be some issues that need worked out.

Those purchasing fixtures before the technology has been perfected are doing nothing more than product testing, at their own expense.

It's the same reason why you don't buy a car the first year the model is available unless you don't care about malfunctions.


People are assuming that because an LED fixture causes them problems, LED's are the cause. Truth is, LED's aren't the cause, the cause is the design of the fixture and the application of the technology.

 

[sirreal63]

MedRed used both the Sol Blue and the Radion, Chad used the Sol Blue and the Apollo IIRC. It isn't that they did not grow corals, people successfully grew corals under the original Solaris, some eight years ago. Some people don't care if colors morph but to those who do care, and see their corals going back to what they expect after switching back to their traditional lighting, then it should show that something is missing. It only becomes important if you do care about the coloration.

To say that someone made a mistake for using the fixture they did, and was not happy with the outcome, is not a proper thing to say. It's no different than someone switching out their Octopus for a Reed Dynamics and getting a more consistent skim, it doesn't mean that the Octo is bad, or they are using it wrong, it just means that the RD is a better fit for their needs. When most of the people who reported in this thread bought their fixtures they were the state of the art, more or less, and what we know now doesn't apply, the fixtures available today were not available then. We don't even truly know that the improved spectrum units available today are the answer, not enough time has passed. We can be hopeful and early reports look promising, but should we say to the people who bought a Mitra, Radion Pro, Razor or ReefBreeders unit today that in two years when the tech has grown even more that those people bought the wrong fixture?

Gbru is right, their is no fault, it is a learning curve and with that curve will come some growing pains. We should thank the people who spent their money on led's that didn't work out the way they wanted, it is their experience that helps make the tech better, which helps all of us. This is a good thing, not a bad thing.

 

[gbru316]

MedRed used both the Sol Blue and the Radion, Chad used the Sol Blue and the Apollo IIRC. It isn't that they did not grow corals, people successfully grew corals under the original Solaris, some eight years ago. Some people don't care if colors morph but to those who do care, and see their corals going back to what they expect after switching back to their traditional lighting, then it should show that something is missing. It only becomes important if you do care about the coloration.

To say that someone made a mistake for using the fixture they did, and was not happy with the outcome, is not a proper thing to say. It's no different than someone switching out their Octopus for a Reed Dynamics and getting a more consistent skim, it doesn't mean that the Octo is bad, or they are using it wrong, it just means that the RD is a better fit for their needs. When most of the people who reported in this thread bought their fixtures they were the state of the art, more or less, and what we know now doesn't apply, the fixtures available today were not available then. We don't even truly know that the improved spectrum units available today are the answer, not enough time has passed. We can be hopeful and early reports look promising, but should we say to the people who bought a Mitra, Radion Pro, Razor or ReefBreeders unit today that in two years when the tech has grown even more that those people bought the wrong fixture?

Gbru is right, their is no fault, it is a learning curve and with that curve will come some growing pains. We should thank the people who spent their money on led's that didn't work out the way they wanted, it is their experience that helps make the tech better, which helps all of us. This is a good thing, not a bad thing.

On that note, discrediting LED's because you bought a first gen LED fixture for a million bucks in 2003 and had issues is absurd. It wasn't the technology that failed, it was the application. But thanks for taking that leap of faith!

 

[Nanook]

One of our local SPS gurus is switching his display tank from the Radions back to metal halide. His colors with the LED's are good, but the growth is almost nonexistent and he uses the display to grow corals to frag. Before his Radions, his corals were growing out of the water and in every direction.

 

[GSMguy]

He is lucky he did not spike his alkalinity when the calcification dropped off. I think that is causing a lot of the melting SPS that happens with switching from MH or T5 to LED. That and turning them up too high too fast and putting them too closer to the water.

That's mostly based on anecdotal evidence based on reading nearly every thread on LEDs in this forum since the first Gen Solaris started having issues.

 

[AcroporAddict]

One of our local SPS gurus is switching his display tank from the Radions back to metal halide. His colors with the LED's are good, but the growth is almost nonexistent and he uses the display to grow corals to frag. Before his Radions, his corals were growing out of the water and in every direction.

I have a 465 gallon 96" x 40" x 28" all SPS tank, bare bottom, with about 45,000 gph peak flow. Pretty much typical BB setup. Alpha Vertex 300 skimmer. All corals inthis tank were grown under LEDs over the last two years, first year under AI Sol Blues, and second year under Radion Gen I. I just took down and sold all 8 Radions to go back to halides for two reasons:

1. I was getting inconsistent growth and color in some of my acroporas. Some were growing well with poor color (brown), some had good color but no growth, and some had good growth and good color. So I wanted to go back to halides to see what effect they woulod have on completely LED raised SPS. AS a side note, IME seratioporas, pocilloporas, and stylophoras had great growth and color under LEDs.

2. I was always a great defender of LEDs in my local reef club, and I wanted to see if my perspective was skewed because of the amount of time I have exclusively used them.

So I now have 4 x 400 watt Halides: Radium bulbs, Lumenmax Elite reflectors, and Hamilton M135 ballasts. I started out with Lumatek, but decided to go with Radium specified ballasts to get the true rendition of the bulb.

Total cost of buying the Halide setup (not including the Lumatek): $1500. Total cost of 8 radions: $6,000.

I am a self professed light junkie, so I know I spend a lot of $ on lights, but I like trying different lightng tech....part of the enjoyment of the hobby for me.

Right now, I am slowly ramping up the photoperiod, and I'm at 5.5 hours with the lamps about 15" above the water line. What I am seeing is a slow return of colors, well exemplified by a strawbery shortcake colony I bought that was beautiful when I bought it, but turned brown while growing very quickly under LEDs. It is now starting to get the greens and red/pinks back. I am also seeing growth spurts in corals that otherwise grew little or none at all.

Lost a couple inconsequential corals when I switched, as I think I had my lighting period a bit too long, and the Lumatek ballasts I started out with were quite a bit brighter than the M135s I have now

 

[gtafragger]

shimmer with the rapid led kit I got was the worst I had seen in my life. It looked even faker than with T5's no shimmer. It had a blue/white overlapping shimmer instead of a all round shimmer like with a metal halide. I paid 400 bucks for it with 10+ hours on it and I never even hung it on my tank. What a waste

 

[bhazard451]

Total cost of buying the Halide setup (not including the Lumatek): $1500. Total cost of 8 radions: $6,000.

When you spend 4x the amount on lighting, you expect better results, not worse. IMO, the Radion Gen 1, Gen 2, AND Pro still do not provide the correct blend of leds needed to match Metal Halide. The key is to find a spectrum graph of what your favorite MH and T5 bulb is, and match it in led output. That's been my theory all along, and it has yet to fail me. Its more work than just choosing a fixture or bulb, but it yields good results. I also see better results with high CRI neutral or warm whites added over just cool whites.

You should not have to pay $750 to $900 to beta test a fixture either, like with Ecosmart Live.

 

[meshwheel]

Power boat Jim,
Tank looks great! Healthy too! I have a question: Have you ever worked on your tank under those LED's and gotten burned from them? You know, a mild sunburn.
Because I got to mess around with them first hand at some shows a few years ago when the spectrums and power where really weak.
You can get sun burned under a metal halide and T5's as I have workwed under both and it's happened to me.
I think the LED's lacked Ultraviolet radiation. Not sure if this has been corrected. I think it has in some of the fixtures. The UVA and UVB radiation are what causes the SPS corals to color up and reflect these wavelengths.
I am sure the older LED fixtures put out some, I just feel it was not enough. And I agree, the correct mixture is everything.
I know there are UV LED's that really crank it out to the point where your not even supposed to be able to look at them without damaging your eye's or causing irritation.
Acroporaddict,
Sounds like your getting that radiation you need now!