Anyone Thinking of Dumping LEDS and going back to Halides

[Dadekster]

Regarding the OP, my answer is...

NO.

It hit 90+ degrees here today, may have something to do with my answer.

 

[mussel and hate]

My results with LED vs MH are mixed. A brown montipora dying slowly under my 175 Iwasaki 14k turned a nice orange and is showing new growth under a RapidLED PAR38. A euhpyllia paradivisa frag transfered along side the monti has been receding and losing color. I can't claim this demonstrates anything except my PAR38 can grow this orange digi.

I'm not going to discard my MH just yet but I suspect I will after I get the spectral mix dialed in. It just seems inevitable that I'll be able to provide a custom LED cluster for each coral site.

Every thread like this gets to be a bit frustrating when a majority of the "anti led people" say pretty much the same thing. "Tried led, wasn't happy." This is not a valid argument.

He's right you know. The premise doesn't support the conclusion. Offering anecdotal experience as proof positive makes an inductive logical fallacy.

 

[accordsirh22]

i wouldnt trade my leds for any number of halides. i have seen mh on friends tanks and frankly i was not impressed. my led's grow the same corals better than their mh.

 

[Ron Reefman]

My results with LED vs MH are mixed. A brown montipora dying slowly under my 175 Iwasaki 14k turned a nice orange and is showing new growth under a RapidLED PAR38. A euhpyllia paradivisa frag transfered along side the monti has been receding and losing color. I can't claim this demonstrates anything except my PAR38 can grow this orange digi.

I'm not going to discard my MH just yet but I suspect I will after I get the spectral mix dialed in. It just seems inevitable that I'll be able to provide a custom LED cluster for each coral site.

He's right you know. The premise doesn't support the conclusion. Offering anecdotal experience as proof positive makes an inductive logical fallacy.

I'm seriously impressed. This is one of the most well considered posts in this entire thread!

As for discarding the MH and not being ready just yet. That was me about 8 or 9 months ago. I got a Eco Tech Radion and loved what it was doing over my frag tank. But Radions are way too expensive. It's not that I can't afford them, it's just that for $750 each I expect more from a simple led fixture... like cleaning the coraline algae off my glass! :lol: But it did show me leds can work.

Then well made and much less expensive led fixtures came along and I took the leap. Now all 4 of my tanks (and even my refugium and DSB), are lit by leds. They aren't perfect, but then neither are MH or t5. It's all a matter of what's most important to you. So I switched and it's really unlikely that I'll switch back. But I can completely understand why some who switched in the past, before leds were close to full spectrum, or further back before leds had dimmers (or were dimmable), or even further back before leds... you get the idea. Leds have evolved a lot over the last 5 years, and prices have come way down as long as you aren't looking to have absolute, complete, obsessive compulsive control over your light. And you sure don't have that with MH either. My 4 year old MH cost $1100 and did great. I switched to leds 4 months ago for under $700... so cost doesn't need to be an issue any more.

It's all about what do YOU want and YOUR personal choice. They both work well and they both have advantages and disadvantages.

***soap box mode off*** :lol:

 

[shred5]

Light is light, this is physics 101. Of course it comes in different spectrums and volumes, didn't think I would have to specify this in a thread about reef lights.

I am not taking a discussion about aquarium lights personally. I love a good discussion and have no problem with people on "the other side of the fence". There have been some very well put arguments against LED as it is today but this general 'led sucks" bit is not one of them. I am not pro led, nor against it...it is a light source for heavens sake. All I am saying is that if you can get the right amount and the right spectrum it will work. Some people have been very successful, and for years. Some have not had success at all.

You are making an awful lot of assumptions about me in your post btw and all of them wrong. It would probably be better for this thread if we stick to the topic.

LOL what does that even mean light is light.. Well my shoe is a shoe and my table is a table. I don't even have halides and I am adding led to a frag tank. My post said advantages and disadvantages to all lighting. But you are reaching. I will look in my the language of lighting and they have a chapter of lighting basics and it may even be called lighting 101 and I am going to see if it says light is light.


You say that people are saying I just got rid of of leds because of this or that and it at. You are the one saying it, no one else. funny is everyone that just makes the claims leds are the greatest nothing can touch it.. You ask to see a pic and there always the same excuse. Ah my tank don't look very good due to this or due to that or its people who have had them on a few months or there small frags or mainly chalices.

 

[shred5]

Light is light, this is physics 101. .

By the way I opened several of my hand books and it does not start light is light, actually they start out light is energy.. Its visible energy producing the sensation of sight..

So there you go light is not just light it is energy!

 

[shred5]

I'm seriously impressed. This is one of the most well considered posts in this entire thread!

As for discarding the MH and not being ready just yet. That was me about 8 or 9 months ago. I got a Eco Tech Radion and loved what it was doing over my frag tank. But Radions are way too expensive. It's not that I can't afford them, it's just that for $750 each I expect more from a simple led fixture... like cleaning the coraline algae off my glass! :lol: But it did show me leds can work.

Then well made and much less expensive led fixtures came along and I took the leap. Now all 4 of my tanks (and even my refugium and DSB), are lit by leds. They aren't perfect, but then neither are MH or t5. It's all a matter of what's most important to you. So I switched and it's really unlikely that I'll switch back. But I can completely understand why some who switched in the past, before leds were close to full spectrum, or further back before leds had dimmers (or were dimmable), or even further back before leds... you get the idea. Leds have evolved a lot over the last 5 years, and prices have come way down as long as you aren't looking to have absolute, complete, obsessive compulsive control over your light. And you sure don't have that with MH either. My 4 year old MH cost $1100 and did great. I switched to leds 4 months ago for under $700... so cost doesn't need to be an issue any more.

It's all about what do YOU want and YOUR personal choice. They both work well and they both have advantages and disadvantages

***soap box mode off*** :lol:

That right there is advantages and disadvantages to all lighting types. There is no doubt leds produce enough par to grow corals but par is not the only factor in growing and getting corals to color up. What I think allot of people do is look at chlorophyll when looking at light but corals are not plants they are animals and they have adapted to certain things. Even plants you cant just look at chlorophyll because some live in the shade and some need direct sunlight. Corals have adapted and they have ways of changing light to their advantage. Each coral is different. Again like I said there are reasons some corals only grow in 15 feet of water or less or some only 30 feet down and some in all ranges.

The biggest hurdle is people is people are trying to keep corals from all these ranges in this little box less than 2 feet deep in most cases.

 

[jdezek]

I myself have never used MH so I can't speak against them from experience. The reason I went LED myself is the fact of not having to change bulbs every six months and running a chiller. I finally built my own LEDs and I love the fact that there completely adjustable. I can tune them down if there too bright I can increase my blue if I want the more blue look. I also have them on a controller to ramp up in the morning and back down at night. Prior to LEDs I ran power compacts and I hated the cost of buying new bulbs and the either on or off option now slow ramping. My LFS has MH on there tank and there corals (SPS) are always bleached. A fellow reefer bought a piece put it under his LEDs and it has colored up and looks good. So for me I love the flexibility of the LEDs.

 

[nynick]

LOL what does that even mean light is light.. Well my shoe is a shoe and my table is a table. I don't even have halides and I am adding led to a frag tank. My post said advantages and disadvantages to all lighting. But you are reaching. I will look in my the language of lighting and they have a chapter of lighting basics and it may even be called lighting 101 and I am going to see if it says light is light.


You say that people are saying I just got rid of of leds because of this or that and it at. You are the one saying it, no one else. funny is everyone that just makes the claims leds are the greatest nothing can touch it.. You ask to see a pic and there always the same excuse. Ah my tank don't look very good due to this or due to that or its people who have had them on a few months or there small frags or mainly chalices.

Is there a point to be made here, other than how much I apparently rub you the wrong way?

 

[Ron Reefman]

That right there is advantages and disadvantages to all lighting types. There is no doubt leds produce enough par to grow corals but par is not the only factor in growing and getting corals to color up.What I think allot of people do is look at chlorophyll when looking at light but corals are not plants they are animals and they have adapted to certain things. Even plants you cant just look at chlorophyll because some live in the shade and some need direct sunlight. Corals have adapted and they have ways of changing light to their advantage. Each coral is different. Again like I said there are reasons some corals only grow in 15 feet of water or less or some only 30 feet down and some in all ranges.

The biggest hurdle is people is people are trying to keep corals from all these ranges in this little box less than 2 feet deep in most cases.

You are right about corals being animals, and there are 2 issues related to corals and light. One is can we get a light that makes corals healthy and grow, so PAR is really important to the coral. And two, how the corals look to us, so spectrum is very important to us. I think both MH and leds have shown they can produce PAR. So pick to look you like... MH or led.

And there is no doubt that MH's produce large amounts of heat and can't be dimmed. So both leds and MH have pluses and minuses.

 

[MedRed]

What's funny is that I am now running a 150w halide, 250w halide, and a Sol Nano over each of my 3 spires. While all spires receive some light from each source, they each receive the majority of their par from the light source overhead. My LED spire has a Miami Orchid making a 90 degree bend in order to grow towards the Halides. My vivid blue acro just shot off a branch that accelerated growth towards that MH source. The branch will soon overtake the main body in growth. The corals are telling me that they like MH better.

 

[hypnoj]

What's funny is that I am now running a 150w halide, 250w halide, and a Sol Nano over each of my 3 spires. While all spires receive some light from each source, they each receive the majority of their par from the light source overhead. My LED spire has a Miami Orchid making a 90 degree bend in order to grow towards the Halides. My vivid blue acro just shot off a branch that accelerated growth towards that MH source. The branch will soon overtake the main body in growth. The corals are telling me that they like MH better.

Have you done a PAR reading difference between the 250 watt MH and the Sol Nano? I'd be interested to see the difference between the two at multiple levels and area. I think this brings up an interesting point, however by making statements like "The corals are telling me that they like MH better" really muddies the research, lol. (my corals never ever talk to me, /cry)

 

[Ron Reefman]

What's funny is that I am now running a 150w halide, 250w halide, and a Sol Nano over each of my 3 spires. While all spires receive some light from each source, they each receive the majority of their par from the light source overhead. My LED spire has a Miami Orchid making a 90 degree bend in order to grow towards the Halides. My vivid blue acro just shot off a branch that accelerated growth towards that MH source. The branch will soon overtake the main body in growth. The corals are telling me that they like MH better.

So why do you still have the other lights? Is it because they make the corals look better? I'm just ask'n. :reading:

 

[nynick]

The Sol Nano is 30ish watts when tuned to max if I remember right so that might be why. Led might give more bang per watt but not enough to compare 30w with 250w.

 

[MedRed]

Have you done a PAR reading difference between the 250 watt MH and the Sol Nano? I'd be interested to see the difference between the two at multiple levels and area. I think this brings up an interesting point, however by making statements like "The corals are telling me that they like MH better" really muddies the research, lol. (my corals never ever talk to me, /cry)

I just added new bulbs this week and was going to do new par measurements this weekend. The Nano's Par numbers were 100-150 off of the 250w Phoenix running on an electronic ballast.

So why do you still have the other lights? Is it because they make the corals look better? I'm just ask'n. :reading:

I started my tank with 2 AI Sols. I changed the optics to all 70º to improve coverage. I loved everything about them, but my coral colors were off.

I switched to Radions a year later. I got better growth, coloration, and coverage, but coloration still wasn't what I was expecting. SPS weren't showing 100% of their potential.

I decided to switch to MH and began the search for a fixture. I found one and while I waited for it to come in I used an old Aqua Medic 250w pendant for a couple of weeks. The first few days I used a 10,000K bulb that was ugly yellow. Even then I could see some of the colors I was missing by using LEDs. My 14,000K Phoenix bulb arrived and really brought out a lot of the overall pop my tank had been missing.

A little less than a week later my Giesemann Infiniti arrived with a 250w halide + 4 T5's. That fixture was the bees knees. I found the right mix of T5's pretty quickly. Coral coloration improved in less than a month to meet my expectations. The unexpected bonus was that growth took off like a light. I was satisfied with the growth before the halide. I had no idea that the halide would create such a growth spurt. As the corals grew I started to run into problems with my scape. The centralized Halide was unable to get light to the far sides of the tall spires which really limited where I could place new SPS frags and created shade and shadows on existing ones.

I was originally going to go with 3 x 150w MH pendants and place one over each spire. I decided to go with 1 x250w and 1x150w for the back two spires. This would provide 360 coverage around those spires for full SPS placement. The front spire has SPS on it, but the very front of it is zoas only. I decided I'd go with 2 x T5 or with an AI Nano to light it. The Nano won out as I really missed the Sol's control ability and lunar cycle (my candy basslets spawn late at night and I was able to catch it from time to time with the lunar lights).

Now I have a Frankenstein lighting setup that allows me the coral fluorescing dusk viewing of 10% blue Leds and a true lunar cycle without compromising on the daytime benefits of halides.

09.26.2011 11 months under Sol Blues

11.11.2011 14 Day after Radions

01.30.2012 3 months after Radions

03.10.2012 17 Days after MH + T5

03.26.2012 33 Days after MH + T5

06.30.2012 4 months after MH+T5

08.28.2012 6 months after MH+T5

10.29.2012 34 days after switching to 2 MH pendants (No Sol Nano)

Keep in mind the Sol Blues and Radions were fixtures without the latest spectrum LEDs and obviously did not have any UV leds at all.

 

[shred5]

Nice looking tank... Wow I see some pretty expensive fish there. Also nice looking magnifica.

 

[MedRed]

Nice looking tank... Wow I see some pretty expensive fish there. Also nice looking magnifica.

Thank you. I had an ATO failure in December while I was on vacation that took out almost all my SPS. It pains me to think about it, but the SPS reboot is hopefully going to turn out better than the original.

 

[shred5]

Thank you. I had an ATO failure in December while I was on vacation that took out almost all my SPS. It pains me to think about it, but the SPS reboot is hopefully going to turn out better than the original.

Always when on vacation, thats when thing decide to fail... LOL

What kind of top off? You now have a tunze ato?

Wow that's a 60 gallon.. looks bigger. How did you make the spires? Do you have a tank build thread some where? I have seen your tank before somewhere.

 

[MedRed]

Always when on vacation, thats when thing decide to fail... LOL

What kind of top off? You now have a tunze ato?

Wow that's a 60 gallon.. looks bigger. How did you make the spires? Do you have a tank build thread some where? I have seen your tank before somewhere.

I do have a build thread http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1908402 I did make the spires. I used dry rock and drilled it. The spires are held together with fiberglass rods and epoxy

I have a tunze osmollator. It has stopped working twice since then and apparently my halide ballast could have caused the controller failure. I'm currently testing that theory. It just really sucks something so simple could cause such a catastrophic failure.

 

[Michigan Mike]

Hey MedRed, it sucks when stuff happens when your out & about!

Its obvious that "old school" lighting is still the best. IMO, if your main concern is coral health!
If its trading off saving money or changing spectrum without buying bulbs then LED is for you.

My rant?
Its just that a ton of people are willing to pay for a new lighting system & downplay the effects on coral for the benefits of no bulb changes &/or heat - that doesn't come in play with ATI or properly cooled t5/ combo fixtures anyway, at least not in most cases, if you live near the equator or don't have AC (or pay out your butt for electricity)... Ya. LEDs sound like a good idea, right?

The only thing I can say is maybe give each lighting 6 months each, switching to LED can slow growth alot. Etc etc let them transition before switching to another light source.

I've never seen a led tank yet, (although somewhat limited IME) I've never seen anyone using them say the growth is better (except here on RC) its always a consideration that less money for electricity/bulbs is worth it.
I, for one, as a person who wants the best for my livestock, ya...I do not see it yet...the key word is "yet" .
I do hope we all can save money and have equal coral health but I've not seen it yet (with led) but there are led fixtures I haven't seen yet that look pretty spiffy, did I just say spiffy? Whoa...

I've stated led/t5ho combos are the future many moons ago...iif you look back far enough.
I stand by it today, still. Some awesome looking stuff around, either DIY or ATI ..good stuff!

(LEDs can do all that without t5 .. -smack!- ..ya, right..in your eyes?) both are key now, maybe not in the the future, but now I not see anything better.

When LEDs are main lighting with T5 backing it up, but t5 not being almost half the wattage - and being successful will be the day T5HO is obsolete - along with every other light source. Not in the few years but we all can hope sooner.
The led/t5 combos look awesome, if we can make it so there is more led & less t5 will be a great thing because I'm not convinced led should be stand-alone lighting yet.
Lots of missing wavelength with "peaky" led.

A photon is a photon.., light is light...
Well man made light/photons aren't equal. Figure out the little nuances before you commit to say they are all equal...They aren't! They all have pros/cons but equal or the same results isn't true.