Anyone Thinking of Dumping LEDS and going back to Halides

[blackgate]

I am thinking about making the switch from LED to mh. The coral colors are really nice under my LEDs, but growth has just been miniscule after one year. I started supplementing with t-5s and additional stunner LED strips several months ago, and things have definitely improved. Unfortunately, I now have five lighting timers, and 10 plugs being used in one outlet just for lights. Even after all this, I still can't stand the color during mid-day hours (believe me, I've played with endless settings on my leds) it only looks good in the morning and evening. I am surely going to miss the level of control I had with my leds, but I think it will be worth it. I am trying to decide between using a 250w radium 20k, or a phoenix 14k with some supplementation. I am def. keeping some led strips so that I can have a dusk to dawn effect, but what do you guys think about the bulb selection, and what sort of lighting schedule should I implement? Thanks for any input you guys or gals can give.

 

[rgfast]

I'd say I'm one of the early Leds users, I built my first fixture to cover my SPS 210 gal display some where around 2010. I was tried of heat ,chiller and power bill that two 250 and two 400 mh were producing. Over time I added new spectums including 420s as well 490s, 530, 660 which showed promiss. Then comes the but they still aren't complete and missing something that corals need. Funny storry here is I resently had seen a coral in a friends tank and asked where they got this great piece and what it was called, to my surprize they respond that they had bought it from me!!! their tank lit by three 250 mh 1400k is producing colors I'd never seen in system!
So this is what I'm doing now, I've moved the full specture led fixture to my wifes lps system and now setting mine up with led/t5 combo, leds have RB/CW mix with two ATI corals pros, one Giesemann pure antic and one ATI blue+ all 80watts. I'm hoping the T5s will add the missing spectums that I just can't seem to find in the leds without the need to set my chiller back up if not I remove leds and add three 250 mhs time will tell

 

[Real Reefer]

I made the switch from halide to led and I'm loving the leds as far as looks,heat,controls haven't added to many sps to the new tank yet but all the other corals are loving the leds.i dout ill ever go back to t5 or halides

 

[McGee10]

I am just getting back in the hobby and on the fence about lighting. I love my MH lighting but hate the heat. but just don't see the LEDs making corals thrive. I wonder if with the addition of the reds and green LEDs if it will help. sorry if it has been covered already just found this thread.

 

[sirreal63]

I dumped the thought of switching to LEDs, maybe I will think about it again in a few years. My MH simply works and needs no excuses, needs no hype and does exactly what I expect it to.

 

[Aqualund]

Okay first off, sorry for the subpar pictures, I just have a canon powershot.

In my experience since I left the army in 2010, I re-entered the hobby after a 10 year hiatus to find that leds were the new big thing. Needless to say, since I have set up my current systems I have been using leds exclusively, and 15 years ago sps coral health was still a developing possibility let alone sps coloration.

So Everyone has been asking for proof of established systems that have shown growth and good color under LEDS, so here is my experience in pictures:

Growth:


Coloration:


Coloration:


Now these corals have been with me since the beginning, and have made it through a couple of bad husbandry practices, and a pretty lengthy move, so they havent had ideal conditions the entire time.

Mainly I am posting this because as I read the constant bashing about growth and color of sps under leds, I am confused. I would like some clarification...because I feel like my sps coloration is pretty good, are you saying that with Metal Halides they would be even better? And what is your evidence of this?

 

[sirreal63]

Okay first off, sorry for the subpar pictures, I just have a canon powershot.

In my experience since I left the army in 2010, I re-entered the hobby after a 10 year hiatus to find that leds were the new big thing. Needless to say, since I have set up my current systems I have been using leds exclusively, and 15 years ago sps coral health was still a developing possibility let alone sps coloration.

So Everyone has been asking for proof of established systems that have shown growth and good color under LEDS, so here is my experience in pictures:


Now these corals have been with me since the beginning, and have made it through a couple of bad husbandry practices, and a pretty lengthy move, so they havent had ideal conditions the entire time.

Mainly I am posting this because as I read the constant bashing about growth and color of sps under leds, I am confused. I would like some clarification...because I feel like my sps coloration is pretty good, are you saying that with Metal Halides they would be even better? And what is your evidence of this?

I think you missed the concern many have had, it isn't that they don't grow or color corals, it is the change in the coloration of existing corals when switching to LED's. You would not see this as much because you started with LED's. There are several factors that can influence coloration and light is only one of them. When someone who is highly experienced in keeping SPS notices the change in coloration after switching to LED and then switches back to their T5 or MH and notices the coloration returning to what they are used to seeing, with no other change in the tank or husbandry, it makes you wonder. If you read the entire thread, you will see where some very experienced people had just that happen.

This is one of the best views of this I can find, it could be water quality, food or a reaction to the light, it is impossible to say. By the way, this is one of my favorite LED tanks, by far.

And now a quick question . . .

Is this the same coral almost 3 years after switching from MH to LED? If so I wonder if the red fluorescent proteins are enhanced by the LEDs generating a mix of red and blue hence purple or if blue proteins are under-stimulated tilting the balance towards red. Very, very interesting!!

wow,
quite a bit of topics you touched on Joe!

first off, thanks for the kind words. I'm glad you found this thread, because it gives me an opportunity to tell you that I've admired your tank for years. I had one of your pics on my wallpaper for while!

Thanks for linking the paper on blue light regulation of host pigment...
BTW, I think the link is broken..

Perhaps my statement was generalized, but I do believe that developed coral color has relatively little to do with light spectra when compared to water chemistry. This does not go against any of the findings you sighted however. Let me explain...

I think as long as we are in the general ballpark (what constitutes "ballpark" remains undefined, but IMO relates more to intensity), we can grow colorful corals.
The fact that more blue light stimulates more varied coloration of zooxanthellae then other wavelengths, means that corals respond to blue light more favorably than other wavelengths. It makes sense that corals would have a more favorable response to blue light, since longer wavelengths like red are filtered out pretty quickly at depth. Evolution would dictate that they would evolve to use blue light most efficiently.
Provided the absolute value for the amount of blue light that is available meets certain levels and requirements, good colors (subjective) can be achieved. From what I've seen, a lower Kalvin bulb also yields colorful corals. However, I think that certain colors appear more prominent under higher Kalvin lights because the longer wavelengths are suppressed, thereby exaggerating the pigments excited by blue light to our eyes. This is similar to turning off daylight bulbs, leaving only the actinic lights on. You see colors that you won't see when the daylights are on.

Consider this theoretical experiment:

Tank A runs a 20k bulb with a spectral irradiance peak of 1 in the 450nm spectra.

Tank B runs a 6.5k bulb with a spectral irradiance peak of 1 in the 450nm spectra.

Assuming all other parameters are equal, my guess is that the tank running the 6.5k bulb will yield corals that contain the same amount of pigments as the tank running the 20k bulb. The difference is that certain colors that show under the 20k lamp will not be seen when displayed under the 6.5k lamp due to my actinic example above. In addition, a 6.5k lamp would need to be significantly more powerful to yield the same amount of blue as a light source dedicated to outputting blue light. So again, generally speaking, intensity is more important than spectra. I hope I'm making sense, as this topic is hard to put into coherent words without writing a whole paper...

Regarding building commercially available units, I will do this if I ever win the lottery
I have many ideas but no where to implement them.

Finally, regarding the last pair of pics you posted:
yes, those are pictures of the same coral. I'm not sure what caused the color change. However, many things have changed since the first picture was taken.

1. use of activated carbon
2. adding dual DI to my RO unit
3. skimming wet
4. moving from dosing Kalk only to Balling light.
5. dosing vinegar

There may be some other things that I'm leaving out, but that is what I can at least remember. I can say for sure, that water chemistry was very different early on. The tank was very dirty when compared to its current state. You can see all the growth on the rocks in the first picture. Almost like having a thin layer of crud on the rocks at all times. The water was also pretty discolored. You can see by the later more recent pictures that this has certainly changed.
One note of interest is that certain frags of this same coral develop the same blue seen in the first pic only in the growing base. I haven't figured out why it does this or any kind of correlation otherwise...
BTW, another coral which has changed greatly, the purple one with the green tint in the upper right of the first picture now looks like this:

no green at all!

-Robert

We may never know exactly what causes the phenomenon to occur yet it has been observed by numerous people over the years. The observation that the color changes correct themselves after switching back to the original lighting does indicate an issue in lighting, but it is not conclusive because some never have this happen, or maybe they don't notice it.

If you see someone state that LED's cannot grow or cause corals to exhibit color, then you know that they have no clue. People have been successfully growing beautiful corals since the Solaris came out. That isn't the issue, it is what is causing the changes in corals that needs investigation. Given the huge variation from tank conditions from one tank to another I have doubts that we will fully understand the cause and find a corrective action. Considering the large variation in LED fixtures, it remains a variable, and traditional lighting sources have evolved to the point that it is well understood and most variables have been eliminated. I have faith that it will be figured out.

 

[Aqualund]

Okay thanks for the clarification sirreal63. I guess from an empirical standpoint I was easily confused because I see a LOT of people in this thread and the other LED thread on this subforum identifying that there is a difference, and that somehow that difference is caused by inferior lighting of led, and that it is a bad thing.

A major thing missing in all of this, that I have not seen, par and spectrum readings from the tank while on MH and then the same after it has switched to LEDS, and thus the resulting coloration and growth or lack thereof over extended periods of time on a chemically stable system. Without empirical evidence, like you said, I am concerned that so many are willing to flat out blame the LEDS or vice versa.

This is a scientific hobby, and it requires the scientific method in order for one to have a factual basis for opinion. Without this proper foundation, we can easily lead those that are new horribly astray. Isn't it our responsibility to be more objective when discussing scientific matters, instead of rhetorical?

I mean the title of the thread and the immediate 30 or so replies seem to definitely say to a new reefer looking for information that "leds bad, mh's good." Yes? But for those in the know, we know this to be false, based on conditional data.

I would hope that we can focus on the data and develop methods to collect this data and improve the hobby, rather than quibble and bicker and stifle its progress. Maybe we can develop a database of responsible and knowledgeable reefers to do case studies on particular coral species and their response to different methods of lighting given all other conditions are nominally varied? From this, we might be able to realize that certain corals have certain spectral requirements and can thus enhance the knowledge base of the hobby?

 

[p9934s]

One point that confuses me (a relative newbie - 300 gallon DD mixed reef - 1.5 years) is that the lighting debate always seems to be MH+T5 versus LED. Not to be overly naive, but what about a MH+LED combination?

The AI Vega and Radion seem to supply great control over color and intensity, so why not use MH (I current have 3x250W mogul radiums) and then supplement color and fluorescence with the addition of LEDs (run at fairly low intensities, say 3xAI Vegas) - assuming money is no object.

I understand that this defeats the low energy consumption advantage of LEDs.

 

[Ron Reefman]

One point that confuses me (a relative newbie - 300 gallon DD mixed reef - 1.5 years) is that the lighting debate always seems to be MH+T5 versus LED. Not to be overly naive, but what about a MH+LED combination?

The AI Vega and Radion seem to supply great control over color and intensity, so why not use MH (I current have 3x250W mogul radiums) and then supplement color and fluorescence with the addition of LEDs (run at fairly low intensities, say 3xAI Vegas) - assuming money is no object.

I understand that this defeats the low energy consumption advantage of LEDs.

Some people do it that way. Heck, I did MH & t5 & leds. But why use MH and t5 if I can get everything I want (and it seems most everything my corals want) from just leds? And it's cooler (one less giant headache) and it's less expensive to maintain after buying it (no bulbs to buy and less electricity used... by the lights, by the chiller and by the house A/C). And over the last 6-12 months, even the purchase price is very similar to MH and t5 (leds used to be 2, 3 even 4 times more expensive than MH & t5).

 

[jda]

You just need to go out and look. There is no science or proof of anything, especially on the internet, where one post will emphatically say one thing and another says something else. Find some local tanks, go and look and figure out what you want for yourself - if you do this, you will always be happy.

For me, I am looking for experiences from multi-year (5-10+) SPS keepers at the TOTM level. This is what I am and who I need to be looking at to get better. What everybody wants is different. I don't need schooled on lighting from some biocube guy who loves his new lights, has a tank full of frags on plugs that he got for free at a swap, has all the experience in the world and in the post right below mine is asking the best way to scrap coralline algae off of the glass or asking what a diatom is.

Get out. See some stuff. Look around when you are on vacation. Do you own recon and homework and make your own decisions. Anything short of this is probably going to disappoint. Honestly, i think that a lot of people do this... they just don't belong to a message board or post.

 

[p9934s]

Makes total sense if you agree (or have actual evidence) that LEDs will get the job done for the toughest acros etc. My issue is that I am getting pretty good color on my SPS under the halides (with some reefbrite strips for actinic supplementation), but want to get more color and pop. I'm concerned that a direct transition to just LEDs will take me in the other direction.

Does it seem feasible to add (say 3 Vegas), get rid of the Reefbrite strips and gradually decrease the MH photoperiod while increasing the LED photoperiod and intensity.

Possible end state would be 6 Vegas and eliminating the 3 Radium 250k moguls (which run on Aquamedic ballasts)

 

[asid61]

I think the reason why people switch from led to MH/T5 is because they start out buying things like AI SOLs, which are far from the best in led. Just blue/ white, even if they are Cree.
If people used things like the AI Hydra, Reef Breeders, Radion, or Razor, then you would have more luck with leds.

 

[MedRed]

I think the reason why people switch from led to MH/T5 is because they start out buying things like AI SOLs, which are far from the best in led. Just blue/ white, even if they are Cree.
If people used things like the AI Hydra, Reef Breeders, Radion, or Razor, then you would have more luck with leds.

I started my tank on AI Sol Blues, switched to Radions, and then moved to MH.

 

[chad p]

My tank(s) were under LEDs for the last year or so with predominantly SPS frags/mini colonies. First I had a Kessil A350 and then an AI Sol Blue. I was happy with the LEDs in some respects but skeptical in others. Namely, I have a few frags that lost major color going from someone else's tank with MH to my LED lit tank. Other pieces thrived however with good color.

I just switched to a 250W Hamilton 14K in a Cayman Sun reflector powered by a Lumatek ballast. I have literally only had this light up for a few days but I love the brightness of it. I'm hoping to see some color return to my handful of dull or pale frags. Time will tell and I'll update here if I see noticeable changes.

My personal belief based on limited experience is that you can have a very nice SPS tank under LED only lighting but I think there are certain corals that just won't get the best color possible.

 

[Tank2379]

Had my apollos LED for a year and coral colored up awesome and grew like crazy but for the life of me I couldn't keep Chalic... Some SPS started to brown up over time and color just started to look dull or white wash out.. I just made the switch back to MH 175W 20K XM with 2x 24W T-5 and so far colors are starting to come back... Been up for a week now

 

[don_chuwish]

Lots of people swear by MH+T5 and clearly that works well. But the attractive aspects of LEDs are hard to deny. So how about LEDs + T5 supplementation? Like 1 or 2 tubes in good reflectors. That wouldn't negate the energy & heat savings TOO much, or cost too much in bulbs. If I had a hood I might try it. Still in my first few months with a R420R 120W 16K. Love the features, not sure about the results yet.

- D

 

[evolutionZ]

i think T5 + LED is the best hybrid so far. Like the ATI power module LED.. if it dosn't cost me both arms and legs, that would've been my choice without doubt. However i went with the razor 4 months ago and its my first time trying out sps. most of my SPS frags come from a MH + T5 or T5 alone tank (i got all my frags from 2 friends) and not only did i not lost any colors, some have deepen!

Of course at the same time, some colonies that are maricultured are losing colors.

if i could add 2 single T5 tubes with their own reflection at the front and back of my razor (which i cant due to hanging and aesthetic reason) i believe that would be the best i can get.

 

[sirreal63]

The next time I take my canopy off I will add back the Ecoxotic 445nm LED's so I will have MH, VHO amd LED all under the hood.

 

[ninja66999]

i have a kessil 350 over my 65 hex, will not be going back, had a 150 mh, not close ingrowth at all, at least 25% more growth with the kessil on 75%