Anyone Thinking of Dumping LEDS and going back to Halides

[robsk]

My point above is if you change from T5 or MH to a well designed and research LED unit there will be a transition and this could be anywhere up to 6 months in my view. Also keep tweaking and playing with the intensity and output will only make matters worse.

I am 5 months into LEDs(well designed) after several years of mh and t5's. In my experience, this statement makes tons of sense and is not an angle that often gets discussed. I still have corals that are adapting. Interestingly enough, new frags that didn't have to make the transition seem to be doing very well from day one. Those experiences for me seem to affirm the above statement.

 

[firebirdude]

Bit of an experiment for fun I am trying in my tank. As I said in an earlier post I have thrown the gauntlet down and found the most cruddy looking coral I could find and see what it does under GHL Mitras for 6 months.

Good luck. I'm sure they'll do fine. Though I know you're not trying to prove anything really, I don't think anybody is disputing that LEDs can sustain/grow coral. It's the coral color that people are complaining about. So though you may revive those corals to some nicely colored coral, we'll never know if they're capable of even better color under a different lighting source (MH or T5, I'm not saying MH is gold standard).

I did the opposite. I put frags in my tank that were being raised under MH, into my LED tank, let them grow for almost 2 years, watched the colors fade, then switched to MH and watched the colors start to return. Didn't change anything else in my routine. And had my LEDs at ~40% brightness most of the time. If they were bleaching, the color probably would have vaporized over a two week period. This was over several months minimum. (Probably 8-10 corals SPS and LPS).

Then, we claim the technology must "suck" when we have a couple dozen users with bad experiences.

I'm not really saying the technology sucks. I'm just saying nobody seems to know everything that needs to be involved to use them probably DESPITE everyone claiming that they do. "Oh you must include such and such. You've gotta have such and such. It's gotta be this way because corals need this spectrum...." With all due respect, everyone is full of it. People/Companies are reading a little bit then making broad conclusions of what MUST be done. Then everyone gets on here and talks it up until it's a law. Fast forward two years and everyone finds out....well that's not necessarily true, or that's not actually the whole story here.

Yeah. I'm a little jaded about my experience with LEDs. But I think my experience was well performed. I used them for a large chunk of time and didn't screw with the tank changing every little thing all the time. In the end, they didn't work for me. I'm positive LEDs WILL BE the end-all be-all future to all lighting. But now it seems like everyone is trying to be an expert on the topic with little to no long term research. It'll be awhile before I jump on board again.

 

[AQD_ottawa]

Good luck. I'm sure they'll do fine. Though I know you're not trying to prove anything really, I don't think anybody is disputing that LEDs can sustain/grow coral. It's the coral color that people are complaining about. So though you may revive those corals to some nicely colored coral, we'll never know if they're capable of even better color under a different lighting source (MH or T5, I'm not saying MH is gold standard).

Then the question is, at what point do you say "wow" that LED really made those corals pop? You can argue the same way that changing brand of T5 tube or MH bulb could also provide different results.

There is no standard for coral colour, 99% comes down to own perception. You could have a room full of different people all look at the same coral in a different way.

So we have to generalize and be somewhat flexible in our debate otherwise its just a MH camp vs LED camp and never the twain shall meet.

Most will admit the coral I am testing is pretty ropey, at what point would you say, wow yes that LED unit really does replicate what i would have expected from a T5 of MH unit?

wheres the baseline of expectation?

good example is here - Do you think MH or T5 could of made these gems look better? The corals below spent the last year under Mitras LED, what more would everyone be expecting from that same coral under T5 for example at about 17k-20k?

 

[firebirdude]

Most will admit the coral I am testing is pretty ropey, at what point would you say, wow yes that LED unit really does replicate what i would have expected from a T5 of MH unit?

wheres the baseline of expectation?

No I totally understand and agree. But therein lies the problem with your "gauntlet". We can only say "Yeah, that coral looks pretty friggin sweet," never knowing what the coral is capable of under different lighting. Whereas, I watched a majority of my corals slowly fade to pale versions of what they once were. Still the same colors.....just washed out.

If you had been running MH or T5 and then switched to the Mitras LEDs and watched your corals all color up, you'd no doubt be singing their praises and calling all of us morons. I get it. I'm just saying nobody has found something that works for everyone and everything, despite everyone claiming their expertise.

 

[Allentown]

Good luck. I'm sure they'll do fine. Though I know you're not trying to prove anything really, I don't think anybody is disputing that LEDs can sustain/grow coral. It's the coral color that people are complaining about. So though you may revive those corals to some nicely colored coral, we'll never know if they're capable of even better color under a different lighting source (MH or T5, I'm not saying MH is gold standard).

I did the opposite. I put frags in my tank that were being raised under MH, into my LED tank, let them grow for almost 2 years, watched the colors fade, then switched to MH and watched the colors start to return. Didn't change anything else in my routine. And had my LEDs at ~40% brightness most of the time. If they were bleaching, the color probably would have vaporized over a two week period. This was over several months minimum. (Probably 8-10 corals SPS and LPS).

I'm not really saying the technology sucks. I'm just saying nobody seems to know everything that needs to be involved to use them probably DESPITE everyone claiming that they do. "Oh you must include such and such. You've gotta have such and such. It's gotta be this way because corals need this spectrum...." With all due respect, everyone is full of it. People/Companies are reading a little bit then making broad conclusions of what MUST be done. Then everyone gets on here and talks it up until it's a law. Fast forward two years and everyone finds out....well that's not necessarily true, or that's not actually the whole story here.

Yeah. I'm a little jaded about my experience with LEDs. But I think my experience was well performed. I used them for a large chunk of time and didn't screw with the tank changing every little thing all the time. In the end, they didn't work for me. I'm positive LEDs WILL BE the end-all be-all future to all lighting. But now it seems like everyone is trying to be an expert on the topic with little to no long term research. It'll be awhile before I jump on board again.

I think most of the LED users will actually agree with you. While the money i spent on my set up hurt, i am not above switching to MHs or something else in the future if it calls for it. (Id be a biased Led fan boi if i felt other wise).

Im in the group you mentioned even though i have come in late in the game with a multi-chip UV broader spectrum unit. I look forward to seeing what they do in a couple years and reporting back but as was pointed out in this thread, ill be among those without the years and years of prior MH experience to provide perspective. I can tell you at least this. The Kessil units i have are leaps and bounds ahead of my 6 bulb T5 unit that i ran already and they are also leaps and bounds above the el-cheapo LEDS i ran for a year last year. Also way better then my old power compact unit from the late 90s/early 2000s.

 

[firebirdude]

The Kessil units i have are leaps and bounds ahead of my 6 bulb T5 unit that i ran already and they are also leaps and bounds above the el-cheapo LEDS i ran for a year last year. Also way better then my old power compact unit from the late 90s/early 2000s.

A lot of nano users sing the praises of Kessils. What specifically did you not like about them? You're saying they're better than the T5 setup you previously ran??

 

[Allentown]

A lot of nano users sing the praises of Kessils. What specifically did you not like about them? You're saying they're better than the T5 setup you previously ran??

To clarify i was saying I liked the kessils better than the T5s "leaps and bounds ahead" might have been a confusing statement, sorry.

ON the basis of 2 points. 1) The T5s were a constant source of aggrivation: "Do i change the bulbs now? Is that bit of algae because of a bulb? Are my fans keeping the bulbs cool enough? Damm there is a lot of dust around the fan intake! Opps i have a bulb blown out. Why will my zoa not open up at all under these T5s? (anectodal...could have just been one fussy zoa) etc. and 2) Dimming ability. While i could turn on the actinics or 10k/12k bulbs with the T5s, (and vary bulbs) I did not have dimming abilities with my unit.

Thats about it, im not saying there was anything wrong with the T5s as i know there are a dozen people about to jump on me that they have better luck with theri T5s then they did the cheap japanese or DIY Led or first gen LED unit they tried.... :deadhorse:

 

[firebirdude]

Gotcha :deadhorse:

 

[AQD_ottawa]

I'm just saying nobody has found something that works for everyone and everything, despite everyone claiming their expertise.

I think you hit the proverbial nail there. Even with T5 and MH you will find people it does not suite.

My concern is LED could or possibly is getting a bad name from cheaper less developed fixtures that simply are not up to the job, these users then dump the light and generalize that LED is rubbish where in fact it was just the LED type that was at fault.

There are probably 100/1 (or greater) cheaper fixtures out there to the higher end units Mitras and Radion for example. The Mitras has a very select audience primarily due to its price, but there are no bad reviews, however there are also much fewer positive stories published due to smaller circulation to read than the negatives from the cheaper fixtures, so you see far more negatives than positives. The industry is littered in my opinion with sub standard units, and this in my view is fueling the pro T5 MH debate.

 

[FlyPenFly]

LED, T5, MH.

I've run them all and they all can work really great if you're not an idiot.

 

[MedRed]

I think you hit the proverbial nail there. Even with T5 and MH you will find people it does not suite.

My concern is LED could or possibly is getting a bad name from cheaper less developed fixtures that simply are not up to the job, these users then dump the light and generalize that LED is rubbish where in fact it was just the LED type that was at fault.

There are probably 100/1 (or greater) cheaper fixtures out there to the higher end units Mitras and Radion for example. The Mitras has a very select audience primarily due to its price, but there are no bad reviews, however there are also much fewer positive stories published due to smaller circulation to read than the negatives from the cheaper fixtures, so you see far more negatives than positives. The industry is littered in my opinion with sub standard units, and this in my view is fueling the pro T5 MH debate.

I'm still waiting to see pictures or in person an LED tank running these better fixtures that look as good as tanks lit with traditional lighting. There's so much conjecture and years later I've still not seen the evidence.

 

[Spyderturbo007]

I think you hit the proverbial nail there. Even with T5 and MH you will find people it does not suite.

My concern is LED could or possibly is getting a bad name from cheaper less developed fixtures that simply are not up to the job, these users then dump the light and generalize that LED is rubbish where in fact it was just the LED type that was at fault.

There are probably 100/1 (or greater) cheaper fixtures out there to the higher end units Mitras and Radion for example. The Mitras has a very select audience primarily due to its price, but there are no bad reviews, however there are also much fewer positive stories published due to smaller circulation to read than the negatives from the cheaper fixtures, so you see far more negatives than positives. The industry is littered in my opinion with sub standard units, and this in my view is fueling the pro T5 MH debate.

I'm hoping this is the difference and the reason I paid $1400 for a 2 x 145w Pacific Sun fixture over something off eBay for $300.

I guess I'll know when I get the fixture. I have to wait 3 weeks for it to be built and shipped to the US. :sad2:

 

[prox]

sadly the issue is a lack of actual scientific study, we all are reliant a lot on user feedback, the issue is does that user have the knowledge to really be a viable source of education.

Here are my thoughts and I have been selling LED since it first came to real attention and that includes 4 of the leading brands.

To prove T5 or mH is better for colouration than LED is very very difficult, you can take your treasured T5 unit off your tank and put the highest end possible LED on the tank and watch the colours fade? Is that the fault of the LED? If you look deeper at the SPS stress reaction to change I think you will find the answer closer there. So you then have to slowly over time balance your new LED unit if indeed its capable in the first place to re capture the glory you had before.

My point above is if you change from T5 or MH to a well designed and research LED unit there will be a transition and this could be anywhere up to 6 months in my view. Also keep tweaking and playing with the intensity and output will only make matters worse. If you decide to buy LED expect a transition and it maybe a few months, if you buy the right fixture it will pay off, i am sure.

I believe the negative comes from the end user gets frustrated blames the lamp and goes back to a pre tuned MH or T5, low and behold in a few months things bounce back, most likely if the LED fixture (again if it had any worth) would have also seen the same corals come out of the stress pot and start to show their colours.

Another point, if you did not have much colour before, dont expect LED to suddenly be your miracle cure, some corals simply dont have the ability for many reasons to be blue green purple with pink spots, they are just brown. Did you buy it brown? how do you know its going to shine from here on? Whats your tank husbandry like (HUGE factor)

Quality, yes I sing from the high roof here because of what we distribute however I strongly believe based on seeing the immense amount of research that goes into these high end fixtures that you get what you pay for. I have no doubt in my own personal view you are not going to get much luck throwing a cheap fixture over your tank. Where is the development/research cost in that bargain price?

GHL took 2 years developing their reflector, they did not do that for kicks. Same goes for Ecotech with their in house TIR lenses.

GHL Mitras uses linear dimming to truly replicate the smooth dimming you get with T5, again this all costs money, but the results stand for themselves if you watch it in action. Both the above commonly are not found in lower priced fixtures, but its the bargain priced fixtures that carry the majority of the sales I would bet?

My theory is this - client buys "affordable" LED lamps ("well its got the same amount of LEDS or more as the more expensive one so...." but how does it deliver that light? spread? diffused? no hot spots? disco ball? Said client after 6 months does not get the results from his affordable LED and blames LED in general and goes back to T5 or MH.

My suggestion is and I speak as a hobbyist first (yes I do) if you are going to take the leap into LED look for the fixtures that the manufacturers have done their research and spent time and effort in development, look for long standing reviews, try and seek out the odd scientific review.

Dont rule out LED because it failed you, look outside the box, how long you gave it was the fixture truly a fixture that could replicate T5 and MH (I believe only two out there can), what was your tank like before the change and if it canned, how long did you give it to recover from the stress of the change.

I will quit my rambling here by concluding IF you are going to take the route of LED spend the money it will pay you back in the long run, but also expect a transitional stage.

I personally do not believe mixing LED with T5 is the answer either as the biggest driving force in the fixture is the T5 with LED providing effects such as tuned moonlight and shimmer. But thats my personal view.

Very well said. Basically sum up everything that I have in mind when people ask which is better.

 

[AQD_ottawa]

I'm still waiting to see pictures or in person an LED tank running these better fixtures that look as good as tanks lit with traditional lighting. There's so much conjecture and years later I've still not seen the evidence.

This pretty much sums up the personal perception issue to this debate.

The photos I posted I cant find fault with but I am sure there are others that will for whatever reason from the downright negative for the hell of it to those that may argue its too blue for them. I guess thats one area LED really does come through you can change the colour without spending a dime on a new bulb.

 

[jda]

My suggestion is and I speak as a hobbyist first (yes I do) if you are going to take the leap into LED look for the fixtures that the manufacturers have done their research and spent time and effort in development, look for long standing reviews, try and seek out the odd scientific review.

Outside of a eBay unit, don't all the manufacturer's claim that they do R&D and that their units are scientifically the best? How can one really tell what research is actually meaningful, if the time and effort in development was actually beneficial and not feel like they were testing and doing the R&D after purchase? Since clearly not all of these units are great, are there signs to look for?

Also, what is next? Dimming was the answer early on. Then, it was different colors of chips. Then, it was pucks. Now, it is reflectors. What is next?

Lastly, how does marketing fall into this. Full spectrum LEDs are not truly full spectrum, and UV diodes are not truly UV but are violet. At what point does honest marketing and full disclosure factor into purchasing a unit?

 

[AQD_ottawa]

Research - Speaking as having an inside hand at GHL especially, the research was done with a leading Lab at a German university over 2 years, thats quite the credential there. Ok anyone can then reply back prove it, I get that, but at some point the skeptical hat has to be taken off otherwise we all would be driving Model T Fords.

What next - thats the beauty of modern technology who knows? its a ride, its up to the hobbyist if they wish to jump on the ride and embrace the future or are happy with the existing technologies

Marketing - Even T5 and MH are not UV-a, we would all have good suntans otherwise, they also would fail approval for light emissions. UV has been a marketing term long before LED ever came about. Some LED units as do T5 tubes and MH have soft peaks into the higher end of the UV-a spectrum typically 380-400nm but I would of thought be filtered out by any glass shield or water column.

 

[lieberca]

I haven't read this whole thread, so apologize for any redundancy. But I think the disco ball effect is quite off-putting, and have been trying different quick-fixes (e.g. diffusing the light) to make it more of a T5 glow.

 

[power boat jim]

I haven't read this whole thread, so apologize for any redundancy. But I think the disco ball effect is quite off-putting, and have been trying different quick-fixes (e.g. diffusing the light) to make it more of a T5 glow.

Raising the LEDs will get rid of the disco effect. LEDs dont have the same glow as T5s since they are not a flourescent fixture.

 

[AQD_ottawa]

Raising the LEDs will get rid of the disco effect. LEDs dont have the same glow as T5s since they are not a flourescent fixture.

This comes down as I mentioned above to the quality of the fixture in my view, the unit is not allowing for convergence of the LED's, developed lights do not have this issue. You should not have to make changes such as raising or lowering your lights to compensate for lack of development. Its these types of things I see driving users back to T5 and MH IMO

 

[power boat jim]

This comes down as I mentioned above to the quality of the fixture in my view, the unit is not allowing for convergence of the LED's, developed lights do not have this issue. You should not have to make changes such as raising or lowering your lights to compensate for lack of development. Its these types of things I see driving users back to T5 and MH IMO

That may very well be, but it is a quick fix for the issue.