Not sure if you are responding to my post but I did not mean a visual difference but rather a difference in growth and overall health. Might have been a bit unclear, sry.
Anyone Thinking of Dumping LEDS and going back to Halides
- Thread starter Goldcoastreefs
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Not sure if you are responding to my post but I did not mean a visual difference but rather a difference in growth and overall health. Might have been a bit unclear, sry.
ashish
New member
I still believe that MH on some large reflectors produce the best results for reef aquariums (in terms of natural and growth). Very little dead spots with lumen bright reflectors and the cost savings on LEd is similiar to hybrid car. I like how with MH you can customize it and upgrade and replace pieces individually - replacing bulbs and ballasts long term is really not that expensive. I also like the fact I know where most of the Par is with MH as it makes it easier to acclimate new corals and isolate less light hungry corals.
I think david saxby replacing his MH for AI led along with T5 is a major step in LED history.lol. However, just because david did it does not mean it's good for everyones situation. I mean think about it, david grew his corals with 400 watt mh and eventually could afford to slow down some growth for color. With the tiny corals frag on sales today (that I can't even see), most people want there tiny colonies and frags to get to a "see able" level with in 1 year. Until I see someone grow a frag faster then MH lighting I won't be convinced. I do love the combination of LED and T5's and feel this is sufficient to grow corals in a smaller tank that does not have as much space to fill in. Actinic supplemenation = LED' strips all day
I think david saxby replacing his MH for AI led along with T5 is a major step in LED history.lol. However, just because david did it does not mean it's good for everyones situation. I mean think about it, david grew his corals with 400 watt mh and eventually could afford to slow down some growth for color. With the tiny corals frag on sales today (that I can't even see), most people want there tiny colonies and frags to get to a "see able" level with in 1 year. Until I see someone grow a frag faster then MH lighting I won't be convinced. I do love the combination of LED and T5's and feel this is sufficient to grow corals in a smaller tank that does not have as much space to fill in. Actinic supplemenation = LED' strips all day
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Ron Reefman
Active member
ashish, I can agree with a lot of what you said. And I think people who said leds are better than MH are just as crazy as anybody who says leds CAN'T grow sps corals, or for that matter that MH are better than leds. They are about on a par now that leds have evolved so much over the past 3-5 years. They are different animals. MH do a number of things better than leds and leds do a few things better than MH. Both work. So it's a matter of choice now.
And cost, which was always a HUGE factor with led fixtures in the past, has changed a lot over the last 6 months! There are now quality built, full spectrum (as full as leds can be), with dimming or controllers, that produce PAR on an equivalent level with 250W MH and at an equivalent price. I just switched from 4 250w MH, 4 t5 39w and 36 3w leds to a pair of fixtures that each have 99 3w leds, my personal custom led layout and a controller. Six months ago to do this would have cost $2-3000 in quality led fixtures. But in Dec I did it for under $700 in a group buy ($950 full retail delivered). Is it better than my old system? Yes and No. There are advantages and disadvantages. Do I like my leds better than my MH? Yes, but that's still very much a personal call. I'm in SW Florida and heat is an issue I don't have to deal with anymore. My power consumption went down from 1250w to about 480w peak and I never run more than 75% of that (so that's 360w at peak consumption for 5 hours). And my 1HP chiller has virtually stopped running. And I switched 3 other tanks to leds as well. So the savings is nothing to sneeze at. On the other hand, my tank lighting has more contrast, the bright area are as bright as before but the shadows are darker. And the focused light is a bit more difficult to deal with, but it's a small thing compared to what I like.
As to whether they grow corals or not, even sps corals, CHUSB may have had problems, but I'm sure not! Yes, it's only been 4 months, but so far the growth is at least as good as it was with MH, maybe even better, but lets chalk that up to buyer's enthusiasm!
And cost, which was always a HUGE factor with led fixtures in the past, has changed a lot over the last 6 months! There are now quality built, full spectrum (as full as leds can be), with dimming or controllers, that produce PAR on an equivalent level with 250W MH and at an equivalent price. I just switched from 4 250w MH, 4 t5 39w and 36 3w leds to a pair of fixtures that each have 99 3w leds, my personal custom led layout and a controller. Six months ago to do this would have cost $2-3000 in quality led fixtures. But in Dec I did it for under $700 in a group buy ($950 full retail delivered). Is it better than my old system? Yes and No. There are advantages and disadvantages. Do I like my leds better than my MH? Yes, but that's still very much a personal call. I'm in SW Florida and heat is an issue I don't have to deal with anymore. My power consumption went down from 1250w to about 480w peak and I never run more than 75% of that (so that's 360w at peak consumption for 5 hours). And my 1HP chiller has virtually stopped running. And I switched 3 other tanks to leds as well. So the savings is nothing to sneeze at. On the other hand, my tank lighting has more contrast, the bright area are as bright as before but the shadows are darker. And the focused light is a bit more difficult to deal with, but it's a small thing compared to what I like.
As to whether they grow corals or not, even sps corals, CHUSB may have had problems, but I'm sure not! Yes, it's only been 4 months, but so far the growth is at least as good as it was with MH, maybe even better, but lets chalk that up to buyer's enthusiasm!
shred5
Premium Member
Actually there are only a few manufacturers of the leds. Most companies just put a package together.. It is like tvs only a few people make the screens which are the important part but there are a dozen manufactures of tvs.
Most led fixtures use cree leds which are actually middle of the road.
There is no doubt a led fixture puts out enough par. But halides are the best for sps and probably always will be. They are broad spectrum lamp and most sps come from shallow water where they are used to a broad spectrum compared to deeper water corals which are used to more blue. Why do you think it is such a rush now and all these led fixtures are coming out with full spectrum and adding green, red, and violet uv leds. This will make a huge improvement in what leds can do now.. But halides will still be better for coloration. There is give and take: halides will provide better color but can waste allot of energy. Leds super energy efficient but less color. T-5 is in between those. Leds in the last year have made leaps and bounds and the new full spectrum fixtures are a huge improvement. Leds will continue to improve especially on optics. There is not best for one thing, we are trying to keep things that live in different zones of the ocean and from completely different oceans in this little tiny box together.
There is give and take with all types of lighting. If colors of sps is what you mainly want go with halide, if efficiency is your main concern go with led. If you keep deeper water corals or softies go with the cheaper white, blue led systems. If you want something in the middle go with t-5.
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Exactly for that reason I just ordered some new T5 bulbs after 1 year of LEDs (Radion)
. I got some great growth over the year but the shadows are so hard that my SPS lose their tissue where they are in the shadow. Since I really like the shimmer effect and moonlight capabilities I'm gonna supplement the T5 with some stunner strips.
Just because there are bad led setups out there does not mean that led can not mimic the spectrum of your favorite MH bulb for example. The fact that someones led setup did a very poor job of this only means that the owner did a very poor job of shopping around and doing research. The par is there (and then some) and it is available in a huge amount of colors. LED, MH and T5 are just delivery methods that can all produce light in very varied spectrums and strengths.
Some people say that led will not grow corals, others say it grows them but does not show good coloring and some claim that all led is good for is coloration. Add to this people that seems to think that it produces some special kind of "led light" and you get some very strange discussions on the topic.
Mr. N1ce. The better shimmer you have the more shade problems you will have. Lots of coverage and little or no shimmer, T5/stunner strips. Lots of shimmer and more shading, Multichips and MH. For shimmer effects you want as much of the light to come from as small a point as possible and this is also the reason for shade problems. You can Youtube Kessil 350 for examples. They are not what you are looking for for supplemental lights but you will see what I mean with the shimmer. Pretty easy and cheap to DIY if you are reasonably handy.
Some people say that led will not grow corals, others say it grows them but does not show good coloring and some claim that all led is good for is coloration. Add to this people that seems to think that it produces some special kind of "led light" and you get some very strange discussions on the topic.
Mr. N1ce. The better shimmer you have the more shade problems you will have. Lots of coverage and little or no shimmer, T5/stunner strips. Lots of shimmer and more shading, Multichips and MH. For shimmer effects you want as much of the light to come from as small a point as possible and this is also the reason for shade problems. You can Youtube Kessil 350 for examples. They are not what you are looking for for supplemental lights but you will see what I mean with the shimmer. Pretty easy and cheap to DIY if you are reasonably handy.
shred5
Premium Member
You have.. Have you even read your posts..
The other assumption is that MH is all the same when there can be a large difference between bulbs, ballasts, and reflectors. Different ballasts can make an MH much brighter or shift the color temperature notably.
Even when the same led is used, the difference between a compounded source with relatively narrow optics like Radion uses vs a spread of leds with wider optics is fairly self evident. And a wider spread with wider optics will help reduce that shading of the base of larger coral colonies.
Personally, I think part of the issue is that the internet hype of judging an LED fixture revolves around PAR and discoballing pretty much exclusively. The PAR epeening is stifling the industry. Very few top flite LEDs can be turned to 100% without a really deep tank when they may be better off with a wider spread and more point sources. Another part of the problem with LEDs is their adjustability. This should be a good thing but not enough people really know exactly what they are looking for.
I know- tl/dr.
Capn_Crunch
New member
I'm leaning the other way. I want to dump my hot MH fixture because I have a built-in tank and I have to run a chiller even in the winter. I'm thinking of getting a couple of the Kessil A350W for my 72 Gal bowfront.
Reeferz412
Coral Hoarder
Let me just add I had two monti frags in my tank under LEDs. They didn't grow but kept their color. I recently switched to halides and now they are practically taking over the tile they sit on. This monti is growing faster than my mushrooms that spread.
Edit: My LEDs were the chinese ebay LEDs
Edit: My LEDs were the chinese ebay LEDs
2 years ago I put PAR 38 Cree LED's over my tank and completely melted the entire thing. I cried. Went back to MH's and started over. Growth and color was good but I never liked that I could never alter my color from what the bulb put out; ie I tried xm 10k, too yellow, tried radium 20k, a little too blue, (now that I've wasted $150) tried another company 16k, looks good I guess so stayed with that. Fast forward 2 years and I decided to give LED's another chance. Hopefully I could ramp up and down my lights without having to have my color shift constantly. Got Reefbreeders photon LED's; very programmable to what ever color I like, started slow, at 10% brightness and have ramped up to 50% over the last few weeks. Decided to stop there, since this amount of light seems to be the same as my MH brightness. My color and growth have been great! I made sure I took pictures before I changed to LED's. I've taken new pictures to compare growth and it seems good! I haven't been doing this for very long yet, so I'm not ready to post results, but so far I'm very happy. I'll keep you posted. At the moment, I'm not going back to MH's.
Under Kessil 150s, green monti digi is a weed. One stick has grown and ended up encrusting several square inches in a year- have to frag regularly. An encrusting monti who's name I don't know went from a thumbnail to about 4 inches around since 8/2012 with a big increase in polyp density. Took a chance and tried to save what i think is a bali slimer- went from very light tan to bright green in about 40 days and is now starting to grow. Kessil 150s aren't even all that bright.
Considering I wrote them...yes. All I am saying is that the source is not important. Light is light, be it MH, T5 or LED.
Every thread like this gets to be a bit frustrating when a majority of the "anti led people" say pretty much the same thing. "Tried led, wasn't happy." This is not a valid argument.
Try to instal some garbage MH unit made to light up roads at night over your tank and then come claim that MH sucks. You would be a laughing stock. Do the same thing with some rubbish LED and it is totally fine all of a sudden.
James77
Team RC
Yes, it is a valid argument, provided they also provide some info on their setup. I tried DIY LED and was not happy with the results, that is a simple fact. I used cool white, royal blue, and a handful of warm white LEDs...at the time(couple years ago) that was THE leds are here setup. I was surprised by the brightness, I expected them dim. The shimmer was nice. But I lost coral through bleaching, yet others thrived. I know the usual lines of the intensities and what not, ut I lost pretty hardy coral like pocillopora.
I tried it again with a cheap Chinese fixture(D120) that included "UV". This was on my anemone tank. The anemone did not move, it just looked "blah" health wise. A couple days after I went back to halides with that tank, it was out in full and looked great.
My experience has been that halides produce far better results than LEDs. You almost have to TRY to have halides fail. Any bulb on the reef market right now for the most part will work at least decently. With bulbs like Radium, there is pretty much unanimous success with them in growth and color. I cannot find that same consensus amongst any of the popular LED fixtures right now.
Because we all know what works with halides. Installing a street light over your tank will give wrong spectrum. Yet I hear CONSTANTLY that LEDs are here, and they work. OK......but they are still being ironed out, which is obvious at the endless mixed reviews of them. Dismissing the negative reviews of them as not valid serves little purpose. Negative reviews should be helping advance the LEDs to the point where they can work across the board with little problem, like halides. Crappy fixtures and ineffective setups need to be called out and analyzed some.
I do agree if the LED argument is "LEDs SCUK!!!" or "LEDs are a fad!!". We all know they are capable of growing coral, and they are here to stay with their power saving capabilities. But even the best fixtures right now are giving pretty mixed results. Why?
shred5
Premium Member
Neither is your argument.. Light is light... Light aint just light or we could throw a incandescent bulb over our tank and even if it was just light, our corals are all different. I work in the lighting industry. Par is not just par either. Why do you think some corals are only found in less than 15 feet of water or only more than 30 feet of water. Corals have spent thousands of years adapting to those conditions of light. Corals have pigments and proteins to shield or adapt the light or gather more light.
you know leds are to new to really know.. How many people say look how good my tank but I have only had them on their a month. Why people have to defend what they have is beyond me.. A little common sense goes a long way.
You are taking it personally and you don't even have a tank to say whether they are good or not, so how do you know? If it bothers you stay out of those threads. One thing is you will learn being around the forums there are always going to be people on both sides of the fence, some with valid arguments and some not. Then are those who will defend that item and ignore those valid arguments and some will have valid arguments. If your are not going to give a valid argument yourself you just feed the trolls and then your just a troll on the opposite side..
Edit: and oh I didnt say any of those things in my post.
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shred5
Premium Member
We have no way of knowing they are here to stay, its to early.. Problem is will leds catch on in the home and industry.. If they don't the prices will surge. The company I work for has been specing led fixtures for a while. We just did a alternate for a cold storage for like 500 led lights.. But we are having owners come back and not wanting them anymore. They don't like the look of the light and its two directional meaning it doesn't throw light horizontally on the racks where they store stuff so they cant see..
All I am saying is if industry does not adopt them companies like Cree cant sell enough they will die. Plus there is always something newer and better down the road. Look plasma could be the next big thing if price comes down.
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This was my point. Categorically dismissing led because I "had them, didn't like them" is not a valid point.
Light is light, this is physics 101. Of course it comes in different spectrums and volumes, didn't think I would have to specify this in a thread about reef lights.
I am not taking a discussion about aquarium lights personally.
I love a good discussion and have no problem with people on "the other side of the fence". There have been some very well put arguments against LED as it is today but this general 'led sucks" bit is not one of them. I am not pro led, nor against it...it is a light source for heavens sake. All I am saying is that if you can get the right amount and the right spectrum it will work. Some people have been very successful, and for years. Some have not had success at all. You are making an awful lot of assumptions about me in your post btw and all of them wrong. It would probably be better for this thread if we stick to the topic.
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