Anyone Thinking of Dumping LEDS and going back to Halides

[Aqualund]

Do I need to hold your hand and show you every thread on these forums and on the internet that has done exactly what you have said has not been done?

My point is that it all has, and can be done, but not by companies. So are you saying that because AI, Radion or Kessil hasn't made these fixtures they do not exist in your world?

Im happy that you're happy with your MH, thats fine. But dont sit here and refute actual applied science and discredit the work simply because it doesn't meet up to your standard of "if its not plug and play like MH its crap."

People are dropping LEDs because they werent educated or didnt want to make the proper unit themselves.

You systematically deny the validity of any scientific basis of fact and prefer your own "feeling" over it. This includes totm threads that have "solved" all of the "issues" you have pointed out.

I tend to think that you have more invested in supporting MH over any other light source, to this end I question your motives for blatantly denying the existence of everything you claim LEDs dont have...yet do.

 

[MedRed]

Do I need to hold your hand and show you every thread on these forums and on the internet that has done exactly what you have said has not been done?

My point is that it all has, and can be done, but not by companies. So are you saying that because AI, Radion or Kessil hasn't made these fixtures they do not exist in your world?

Im happy that you're happy with your MH, thats fine. But dont sit here and refute actual applied science and discredit the work simply because it doesn't meet up to your standard of "if its not plug and play like MH its crap."

People are dropping LEDs because they werent educated or didnt want to make the proper unit themselves.

You systematically deny the validity of any scientific basis of fact and prefer your own "feeling" over it. This includes totm threads that have "solved" all of the "issues" you have pointed out.

I tend to think that you have more invested in supporting MH over any other light source, to this end I question your motives for blatantly denying the existence of everything you claim LEDs dont have...yet do.

I'm still waiting to see an LED tank with a variety of SPS where all look as good as an equitable MH and/or T5 tank without the aid of photoshop

 

[gbru316]

Aqua, you're fighting a losing battle. You've fought a good fight, I think it's time for you to join the rest of us that are happy with our LED arrays and just smile and wave at the naysayers.

I know how you feel, I spent hours researching, cross-referencing and educating myself on how zooxanthellae use light and how to recreate/manipulate light to get the best results out of LEDs, but it didn't seem to matter to most people. They know what they know, and there's no changing that.

 

[power boat jim]

I'm still waiting to see an LED tank with a variety of SPS where all look as good as an equitable MH and/or T5 tank without the aid of photoshop

There is one on the home page of this website for starters. As far as photoshop goes sometimes its necessary to adjust colors back to what they really look like since not everone can get true rendition of colors through glass underwater. I know I couldnt when I had halide and not now under LED either.:deadhorse:

 

[Tank2379]

There is absolutely no scientific merit to this statement. what kind of leds were used? Were there specific spectrum that were missing? do you know what they were?

Who are these big guys? where are they hiding? You think because a guy has a tank in place for 20 years that costs him $800 a month to operate is doing it better than a guy doing the same thing, winning totm and contributing to the forums and the hobby for only $100 a month is not as qualified to speak?

Seems more to me like these "big guys" are lazy...because once all the "little guys" do all the groundwork to get a proper led platform that outperforms MH, they will switch over. It happened before with MH. So stop stroking them off.

I don't need a Scientific merit for my own judgement and what I've studied and experience.... But I am not the first to complain or even have a slight problem with LED's killing corals. There are tons or THREAD's that clearly stated. " I started using LED's and my corals are dying". What type of LED's ALL OF THEM! They are all manufacturer in China and maybe some here in the states. But it's clear LED's have an impact on your corals losing corals and Dying.

I've used Apollo Reef LED it clearly worked awesome then over time colors started to fade and even started to lose corals even some of my Nems started to wonder around becasue not enough Punch or to much punch was killing them. My water quality checked out fine on both systems I have and I tell yeah not even a water change was working finally switched back to MH on my main display and bam 2 month later my corals have grown 10X better than LED's.

BTW I have a Maxspec razor over my Frag system and right now I am experience some issues again with My nems but wait I am not going to blame my LED's for let me blame my water quality first them more forward.... BTW don't stroke yourself into the Threads it just makes your blood pressure go up... :thumbsup:

 

[MedRed]

There is one on the home page of this website for starters. As far as photoshop goes sometimes its necessary to adjust colors back to what they really look like since not everone can get true rendition of colors through glass underwater. I know I couldnt when I had halide and not now under LED either.:deadhorse:

That tank is good looking and healthy, but definitely doesn't have the color of an MH tank.

 

[jda]

I completely agree. If my colors looked like that, and who knows if they are accurate or not, I would not be happy at all.

The best thing is to see them with your eyes and keep all kinds of photo editing out of it since it is mostly necessary.

 

[mhucasey]

I have used LEDs, MH, and T5 and there are two issues that I have seen with the LEDs. First, to produce the correct color pigments there is a need for wavelengths in the 405-430nm range, there are permanent pigment changes that are associated with those wavelengths of light.

The more important issue is that LEDs are a very directional light source. In nature, the sun is also a very directional light source, however, the rotation of the earth causes the sun to provide light from multiple angles. This illuminates the sides as well as the tops of SPS corals. In the aquarium, LEDs provide intense light to the tops of coral branches but it takes several overlapping LED light sources to get more than the tops of the corals.

In my experience from the top down my corals were intensely colored when lit by LED pendant. From the sides, however, they were dull and there was die-off in shaded areas. This issue can be overcome by providing more sources of LED light to increase overlap, but there comes a point of diminishing returns when there are lots of LEDs where conventional technologies use about the same electricity. Take a look at this tank in germany with an LED array that pretty much covers the whole thing: http://youtu.be/GC0aXnKQY-E
Its gorgeous, but with that many LEDs it seems the benefits of smaller size and less electrical use may be lost.
Metal Halides are also directional, but because they use reflectors, the problems with lack of overlap are largely overcome. Reflectors re-direct the light from the top of the bulb back to the tank from multiple angles. Its like the point source is "spread out".

T5s make up for their individual lack of power with their overlap. A T5 array may not have any one bulb that puts out over 350 par but may have a par rating under a bank of bulbs of over 1000par under the center. T5s project light from all angles, bathing the coral from the sides as well as the top. Since switching to T5s I have noticed a significant improvement in the color of the corals from the sides(which is where we view them, so its important). There is much less shading, and almost never die off in lower areas of corals.

You can't get something for nothing. Halides and T5s produce very similar lumen/watt ratings in the real world, the difference with LEDs is that all the light is focused one direction. When you increase the amount of LEDs to get more spread you use more electricity. I

n my case, I also use less juice keeping the tank at the proper temp when I switched to T5s(unexpected side benefit). At the time of the switch I was using 235 watts of LED to light the tank, I replaced that with an 8 bulb ATI Sunpower fixture so I'm now using 312 watts for the 7.5 hours that all 8 bulbs are firing. I used a kill-o-watt before and after and between lighting and heating there was only a negligible difference in actual power used.

 

[Aqualund]

In my case, I also use less juice keeping the tank at the proper temp when I switched to T5s(unexpected side benefit). At the time of the switch I was using 235 watts of LED to light the tank, I replaced that with an 8 bulb ATI Sunpower fixture so I'm now using 312 watts for the 7.5 hours that all 8 bulbs are firing. I used a kill-o-watt before and after and between lighting and heating there was only a negligible difference in actual power used.

What about cooling? Please dont gloss over a detriment by only listing a benefit.

anyone who isnt using the right lenses will get poor spread and they should try different lenses to fix the problem you speak of. also the light cannot travel at an angle of 180 or more normal to the vertical axis of the coral...there will always be some angle. so the mh and t5 are still predominately directional from the top.

And Tank, anytime someone says they don't need science, well then their opinions are just opinions, and thats just fine. But when those opinions are refuted by science then those opinions are wrong. But, that doesnt mean you cant still have the same opinion...thats up to you.

 

[jda]

I don't know about a small tank, but in my 120G and 240G tanks, the halides cannot even raise the temperature half of a degree in a day. They do allow for 8-10 hours without a 1000W heater running. There could be some serious cooling issues in small tanks, but you can get rid of these with a well ventilated hood and some fans.

Did you confuse science with truth? It is too bad that there is so little truth. One man's science is another man's truth and yet another man's blasphemy... and just another opinion to the smartest man. Noun: the intellectual and practical activity encompassing the systematic study of the structure and behavior of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment. Science does not refute anything - people do that. There is science on each/every side of an issue and there is a lot of bad science out there.

 

[Aqualund]

thats a broad general statement. are you saying that the articles i linked in this thread about the specific absorption and emission spectras of pigmentation proteins and the various chlorophyll are in question? Are you saying the whole of the biological scientific community could possibly be wrong about these measured values, and that the secret to true pigmentation, coloration and health has been largely unproven and could be interpreted as a direct benefit of something unnoticed in MH lamps for the last 100 years?

Are you LITERALLY saying that the protein structure of chlorophyll a is not by necessity evolved to such degree that it maximizes light absorption in particular wavelengths by nature of the structure itself? are you saying that is doubtful?

I think not.


and wait, you're saying that the halides heat the tank, but do not heat it more than a degree in a day? what about a hot day? are you running air conditioner? what about newtons law of cooling? where is the dissipated heat going? Oh yeah thats science, we dont acknowledge that here right? It's jut how we "feel" about it. lol.

 

[nynick]

Science refutes everything, this is the very core of science.

 

[mhucasey]

So far I have had a much harder time keeping the tank warm with LEDs than I had keeping the tank cool with T5s. My tank is open top and in an air conditioned house, YMMV. A heat source like lights can push the tank up over the ambient temperature of the room, but there is a diminishing return the higher you get over ambient(it cant keep increasing the temp forever). I'm already seeing the heater coming on early in the morning as fall is starting. If I had Halides it would be a different story I'm sure.

For the sake of argument, if the LEDs comprise a rectangular area(think of something like a AI SOL fixture) halfway between the front and the back of the tank, the LED light will shine down from that point and can only spread out from that point. A coral located in the front of the tank will receive light on the top and slightly from behind. It will get no direct light from the fixture on the front of the coral. A coral directly beneath the fixture will only receive significant light from directly above.

If you put two LED fixtures in the the same setup, you start getting the benefits of overlap. One fixture 1/3 of the way from front to back and a second 2/3 of the way from front to back now overlap their outputs. The same coral in the front gets light from the top and perhaps the front as well as more significant light to its back side. The coral in the center gets light to its top, front, and back.

As for spread, please try to not think like you are on one "team" or another. I'm not saying that LEDs as a source of light are not viable. The physics of the light spread I am referring to just cannot be overcome by lenses.

To reproduce the overlap and true spread that I get on my 28X36" tank with an 8X39W T5 fixture, I really think i would have needed to use either 2 GHL Mitras, or 4 Radions. The wattage of either of those configurations at full power is more than the T5 fixture, and they are a lot more money to buy in the first place. Yes they wouldn't need to be turned all the way up to match the T5, however, buying 4 Radions and then running them at 50% output is not a cheap proposition. The T5 fixture produces light over a 24 X 35" area, so it almost covers the whole top of the tank, six inches off the water.

That is why you lose the glitter lines with T5s: there is so much overlap that there is no dominant point source of light.

 

[AcroporAddict]

You don't get glitter lines from T5s because they are not a point source of light, like a Halide bulb or an LED, or a group of LEDs close together. Too much surface area on the T5 bulb.

 

[jda]

Do you have any actual experience with high end reef tanks? Are you arguing just to argue? Yes, the halides come on and displace some/all of the heat from heater while they are on. There is not more heat here, just a different source. This might be just logic, but it works.

I guess that this is science since it is practical activity of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment. I guess that I am a scientist. I guess that we all are. There, now that it is science, you can never post again that Metal Halides heat up a tank since this opinion is refuted.

 

[mhucasey]

To put it another way, you can't light up a room evenly just by using one reaaaaaly bright flashlight. The more sources of light, the more even the light is throughout the room. With more sources of light, the less harsh the shadows are.

 

[power boat jim]

There is very little difference in the way light is spread from a MH and an LED. The optics act in the very same manner as the reflector. Any MH fixture placed over the center of the tank will light coral from behind toward the front. I have a full spectrum strip on the front and back of my tank to provide full coverage in my tank. It was no different when I ran MH, I used two T5 lights on the front and rear of the canopy for the same reason.

 

[Aqualund]

Do you have any actual experience with high end reef tanks? Are you arguing just to argue? Yes, the halides come on and displace some/all of the heat from heater while they are on. There is not more heat here, just a different source. This might be just logic, but it works.

I guess that this is science since it is practical activity of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment. I guess that I am a scientist. I guess that we all are. There, now that it is science, you can never post again that Metal Halides heat up a tank since this opinion is refuted.

Yes I do.

And as I said, yes Halides heat a tank. but they also heat the air around the tank. if you are relying on a bulb to do your heating for you, well then only a percentage of the heat from that bulb is actually doing any heating of the water.

This is also counteracted when you are trying to cool the same water you are heating.

You are trying to say that because your mh's heat the water, you dont have to use your heater, which saves you money. I am trying to say that you are only observing the act of the water being heated, while COMPLETELY ignoring any other factors of the system. so you're right, that's not science, thats just magic.

I guess I have to break it down to grade school for you:

1. if you heat your tank with metal halide lamps, are large portion of the heat generated is waste on the air surrounding the bulb. this is also counteracting the work done by your heater or air conditioner in the home.

2. if you heat you tank with a heater in the water, the heat is only wasted into the surrounding air after it is transferred and dissipated through the water. A more efficient use of energy per gallon.

With this being said, the "benefit" of added heat is only a benefit on the surface. Look deeper and you'll see it is a detriment, something you will need to battle in order to maintain a natural temperature cycle for delicate corals.

 

[Newms118]

Heres a really really stupid question...is there a light fixture that contains MH + T5 + LED? and if not why not? then people could just buy that and be done with this nonsense.

To me i want LEDs for two reason = electricity savings + lower heat, if LEDs cant do this then i wouldnt want them. Why dont they just make super efficient MH that run as cool as LEDs?

These are noob questions, but i'm a noob so no surprise

 

[rsaha]

There is one on the home page of this website for starters. As far as photoshop goes sometimes its necessary to adjust colors back to what they really look like since not everone can get true rendition of colors through glass underwater. I know I couldnt when I had halide and not now under LED either.:deadhorse:

Not that I am in any way a fan of LEDs but photoshop is a reasonable tool used to bring what the camera sees to reflect what the eye sees. If you are a photographer you must appreciate the difficulty of getting a camera see what you see when looking at an aquarium. Cameras are getting better but some adjustment is still necessary IMO.