Anyone Thinking of Dumping LEDS and going back to Halides

[Uncle Salty 05]

I'm not certain this thread ever did serve a purpose beyond reinforcing existing prejudices and dividing the community, regardless I feel certain it has run it's course. It would be a boon to all here on RC if the mods would just lock the thread, better threads have been deleted.

I like this thread and have learned much from it.
You do have the option of unsubscribing from it if you do not find it beneficial.

 

[FastUno]

I agree, I have learned a lot from the debating that goes back & forth. This is okay & is beneficial in the long run, as long as we don't start name calling.

I think ALL OF US want LED's to work the way they should, but some have keener observations & more demanding needs. I understand that now after reading a few of the pages & clearly seeing some of the coral/tank pictures with LED's vs MH's.

Just think how happy we will all be when they find the perfect blend of LED's sometime in the near future.


When I made the choice to go with LED's I wanted to add 2x T5's as well. Now that the LED's have been on for some time & I see the coral response I wonder if I really need any supplementation at all. Everything looks just fine, but you guys are making me reevaluate the full spectrum demand for corals & I am thinking once again about adding the T5's. At the end I will have to see what adding them does to the corals.

It has been 23 days so far with my LED's & I expected more coral issues, but I don't see them as of yet. I do see corals that have benefited from my LED's though.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxS9FxL4dTM

 

[power boat jim]

For those of you who have been following the last few days, you know I decided to hang a 400w 20k radium in the middle of my tank (removed 2 sol blues). I then placed all the corals that were not growing or werent very color full under the MH. I originally had the MH at 22in above the tank but have since lowered it to about 14 in. This helped even out the brighten look the center of the tank had.

So far nothing bad has happened. After 4 days the tenuous (sp) that faded out due to being covered by another coral has recovered its green body very quickly. Nothing else as of note yet though. On an unrelated note I vacuumed out my overflows and pulled out a ss screw. I dont know if that was causing some of my coloration issues or not.

 

[meshwheel]

Jim,
Ahhhhh............"THE OLE STAINLESS STEEL IN THE SALT WATER TANK TRICK"............... I doubt it was doing anything. Lower grade stainless will rust, but if you have carbon in the tank tank I doubt it would be a issue!
Any heat difference?

 

[meshwheel]

FastUno,
Great looking tank! Yes, I think it's a combination of the right led's and a experienced aquarist who can tweak the tank to get the colors just right. Led's will only get better with time. So far, I love my reefbreeders and the Radions and Mitras look excellent as well.

 

[power boat jim]

Jim,
Ahhhhh............"THE OLE STAINLESS STEEL IN THE SALT WATER TANK TRICK"............... I doubt it was doing anything. Lower grade stainless will rust, but if you have carbon in the tank tank I doubt it would be a issue!
Any heat difference?

Yea I burned my hand lowering the darn MH light! Its been on for 8 hrs and has raised the temp about a degree or so. I never had a heat problem in the tank with MH. I had a heat problem in the room where the fish tank is. The room was uncomfortably hot in the summer with 3 of these things on. No way will I go back to that.

 

[meshwheel]

Jim,
Well there ya go! And we are still in winter as well. I cannot understand how people claim metal halides do not heat their tanks up. The heat goes somewhere. It does not disappear. If you keep it from radiating into the tank, it heats up the room which in turn heats up the tank.
My office would get hot with one 250 watt halide in a Lumenbright reflector hung 18 inches above the tank. It still put heat into the tank.
Led's just DO NOT run at those temperatures. Period!

 

[meshwheel]

Sorry to hear about your hand! Hope it's not serious!

 

[power boat jim]

Sorry to hear about your hand! Hope it's not serious!

No its not no worries. I did do a good job in duplicating a 20k radium look with my SOLs. You cant tell where the LED lights end and the MH begin. I also got a new frag of red planet from a fellow reefer. I put it under the MH section and will now compare it to the color and growth of the one under LED.

 

[meshwheel]

:bounce1::bounce1:Oooooooo man! This is getting JUICY!!!! PLEASE KEEP US POSTED!!!!:beer:

 

[James77]

Jim,
Well there ya go! And we are still in winter as well. I cannot understand how people claim metal halides do not heat their tanks up. The heat goes somewhere. It does not disappear. If you keep it from radiating into the tank, it heats up the room which in turn heats up the tank.
My office would get hot with one 250 watt halide in a Lumenbright reflector hung 18 inches above the tank. It still put heat into the tank.
Led's just DO NOT run at those temperatures. Period!

But watts are watts . 250 watts of LEDs will put out the same heat as 250 watts of halides ...though less watts are usually needed. Halides are also a concentrated area, vs dozens of areas.

I'll take any heat I can get......its freezing around here.

 

[James77]

For those of you who have been following the last few days, you know I decided to hang a 400w 20k radium in the middle of my tank (removed 2 sol blues). I then placed all the corals that were not growing or werent very color full under the MH. I originally had the MH at 22in above the tank but have since lowered it to about 14 in. This helped even out the brighten look the center of the tank had.

So far nothing bad has happened. After 4 days the tenuous (sp) that faded out due to being covered by another coral has recovered its green body very quickly. Nothing else as of note yet though. On an unrelated note I vacuumed out my overflows and pulled out a ss screw. I dont know if that was causing some of my coloration issues or not.

Just keep a rough tab of what changes you make, so it can be compared to any(if any) improvement with the halide part of the tank

 

[power boat jim]

Just keep a rough tab of what changes you make, so it can be compared to any(if any) improvement with the halide part of the tank

Not to worry. I will have my son home Friday, He can take some pics then. I dont expect there to be a massive improvement. There isnt room for it. If I can get the few corals to color up and grow that dont seem to agree with LEDs (or maybe its not the LEDs) that would be fine. If they do color up and grow I will let every one know which type they were.

 

[meshwheel]

Jim,
Will be very interesting to hear about your results! Let face it, one coral may do well under T5's and terrible under metal halides. I think alot of it has to do with intensity.
Led's are deceiving, as they do not look bright to a guy thats used metal halides for years, yet they are very bright.
I am learning with mine that because they are so heavy in the violet spectrum, my PAR numbers need to be much lower then my metal halide par numbers where.
And that's fine by me. I am down in the 80-ish watt range now for only 4 hours a day.
And I do have the option of course to raise the fixture higher if I want to. Or cut the high noon time short a bit if I feel the need.
I am still learning with these led's for sure. All I know is my electric bill has dropped to 75.00 a month. Even the Solar salesmen leave me alone now! They know going solar would not save me anything!
So far so good. Look forward to your test results!

 

[FastUno]

You know that I have NEVER been able to run my tank 77-78 deg & I am able to do just that now. It feels so awesome to be able to do that & I find myself just looking at the temp monitor & getting giddy on the inside with respect to this.

I forgot to ask, does Joe have the same issues with running strictly T5's as he does with LED's?

 

[AkoAung]

MH has the advantage of being proven and plug and go. T5s are proven and sure do give colour pop. LED is like that 18 year old kid your boss just hired and all the old guys look at him and think " man, in my day..."

I'm not sure if your response was motivated as much by the sandbox put down as any genuine interest in advancing the debate or the cause of the pursuit of an ideal light.

What MH and T5s have are light outputs that extend way beyond the "peak" they aspire for, including those in the UV range, that current LED diodes being used in aquarium lights do NOT cover. thus, the fluorescence response to LED lights will not be as good as where there is harmful UV for the same corals. This is what LED light manufacturers have to build for - uncovered spectrum.

Here's a typical LED diod: royal blue - note the absence of output beyond the specific curve:

Here are some typical MH light outputs (fr Dr. Sanjay's analysis of XM bulbs) - note the output below 400nm and output in the entire spectral range:

So the coral fluorescence and coral colouration that is the visual attribute we all use to judge these lights are better due to broad spectrum output they have vs. LED diodes.

still, the "old guys" suck up too much power, have got all those problems of ballasts, reflectors, annual bulb replacements, heat, etc etc. that makes LEDs as new and still needing for improvement as they are, an exciting advancement and attractive for all those reasons. with research and economies of scale, LED diodes will be able to cover the spectrum that they don't cover yet. The technology curve is akin to the old TV "tubes" versus flat panel displays. As recently as a few years ago tubes had better colour rendition than the LCD. Recent advancements made that moot.

So, yes LEDs don't cover the far left spectrum yet, thus lacking fluorescence. But you can't ignore all the other advantages. And not all LED lights being sold are good for all corals - some are downright bad for SPS, the most desired coral in this community. Find the LED light that works for SPS, make sure you got the UV (<400nm) covered in sufficient quantity in your light combination, and you may have a lighting solution you can live with while enjoying all the advantages that LEDs give over MH and T5.

 

[FastUno]

Here are the LED's used on my fixtures, so what spectrum would I be missing?

6pcs Warm White(3500-4500K),
6pcs Neutral White(6500-7500K),
8pcs Cool White(10000-14000K),
2pcs Green 520nm,
2pcs Deep Red 660nm,
4pcs UV (400-420nm):
20pcs Blue 460nm,
7pcsRoyal Blue 450nm.

 

[sirreal63]

You know that I have NEVER been able to run my tank 77-78 deg & I am able to do just that now. It feels so awesome to be able to do that & I find myself just looking at the temp monitor & getting giddy on the inside with respect to this.

Why do you want the temp that low? Do you have animals that are from cooler waters?

 

[meshwheel]

iDestroya,
What led in that graph are you referring to????? Is that a led thats' lighting up a schoolyard???? Here's a more fair comparison. Here is a Razor's spectral output:
And I get "glowing everywhere with my Reefbreeders led's.
And those jagged peaks and valleys you get in the graph are because its a burning envelope of mixed gasses.
Razor:
Please excuse the Reef-BS in the background of the picture....:lol2::lol2:
Here's the Reefbreeders spectral plot. This is a Photon32:

 

[meshwheel]

I just feel this is more of a "FAIR" comparison. I know the led you compared was just a blue. But look at how high the 4-500 is on the reefbreeders. This is in the PUR range. The leds will continue to get even better.