Anyone Thinking of Dumping LEDS and going back to Halides
- Thread starter Goldcoastreefs
- Start date
rtparty
Raise The Reef!
A TON! Half the spectrum isn't truly there on LEDs. They smooth it out like crazy to make it look better than it truly is.
I have some graphs that are proprietary and I can't share publicly but maybe I'll dig them up and PM you Jack.
Coralife (white only for chaeto) and Ecoxotic (for supplements) and both work for their intended purpose. The Coralife is a little weak for chaeto but it kept it alive. The Ecoxotics have been ok for a supplement but are barely visible over the MH, better for dusk/dawn viewing.
AcroporAddict
There is no substitute.
77-79 degrees in a reef tank is not really a colder water environment, but in the middle of the range you normally find corals in in the wild, 73-84 degrees farenheit.
77 as the coldest the tanks gets is fine, but it is actually a winter temp on most reefs, though Fiji and Hawaii are two that are "cooler" reefs, but I don't think many corals are coming from those areas any longer.
From Chris Jury's recent articles...
The average annual temperature of most coral reefs is around 82 to 84 degrees Fahrenheit (27 to 28 degrees Celsius),[sic] which seems to be the optimum for coral growth. The commonly advised mini-reef temperatures of 74 to 77 degrees Fahrenheit (22 to 25 degrees Celsius) are stressing most of the animals unnecessarily and, in some cases, severely.
Very few creatures would choose to spend their lives in a perpetual winter. It becomes a balancing act for us, some of our fish prefer cooler temps and many of our corals are from much warmer temps. I am going to pick on Live Aquaria here, though I have great appreciation for them. They are offering fish and maricultured corals from the Marshall/Christmas Islands, where the temps are anything but cool yet they still recommend 72-78.
Full article series.
http://www.reefsmagazine.com/forum/...eat-temperature-debate-part-1-chris-jury.html
http://www.reefsmagazine.com/forum/reefs-magazine/82353-great-temperature-debate-part-ii.html
http://www.reefsmagazine.com/forum/reefs-magazine/93637-great-temperature-debate-part-iii.html
http://www.reefsmagazine.com/forum/reefs-magazine/100587-great-temperature-debate-part-iv.html
This may be one area of LED's that has the potential to do damage, because there is minimal heating of the water, temps tend to stay steady with little natural variation. The danger here is if/when something does happen to cause the tank to vary in temp the corals are not accustomed to any change and will stress easier.
From Chris Jury's recent articles...
The average annual temperature of most coral reefs is around 82 to 84 degrees Fahrenheit (27 to 28 degrees Celsius),[sic] which seems to be the optimum for coral growth. The commonly advised mini-reef temperatures of 74 to 77 degrees Fahrenheit (22 to 25 degrees Celsius) are stressing most of the animals unnecessarily and, in some cases, severely.
Very few creatures would choose to spend their lives in a perpetual winter. It becomes a balancing act for us, some of our fish prefer cooler temps and many of our corals are from much warmer temps. I am going to pick on Live Aquaria here, though I have great appreciation for them. They are offering fish and maricultured corals from the Marshall/Christmas Islands, where the temps are anything but cool yet they still recommend 72-78.
Full article series.
http://www.reefsmagazine.com/forum/...eat-temperature-debate-part-1-chris-jury.html
http://www.reefsmagazine.com/forum/reefs-magazine/82353-great-temperature-debate-part-ii.html
http://www.reefsmagazine.com/forum/reefs-magazine/93637-great-temperature-debate-part-iii.html
http://www.reefsmagazine.com/forum/reefs-magazine/100587-great-temperature-debate-part-iv.html
This may be one area of LED's that has the potential to do damage, because there is minimal heating of the water, temps tend to stay steady with little natural variation. The danger here is if/when something does happen to cause the tank to vary in temp the corals are not accustomed to any change and will stress easier.
AcroporAddict
There is no substitute.
NOAA (National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration) has the optimal growth temperature range of reef building corals at 73-84 degrees farenheit, so per their website 78 is in the middle, is what I was stating. Not perpetual winter, or perpetual summer, as 82-84 would place it, at least per their info.
http://oceanservice.noaa.gov/facts/coralwaters.html
This is a governmental source, so I cannot comment on which source is better, of course. And I am not familiar with the articles you have quoted.
NOAA is a great resource but we need to consider where the corals that end up in our tanks are collected. CJ's article is one I consider excellent because he is looking at our hobby, not the coral reefs in general. Some are cold, cool, warm and many are very hot.
A little excerpt from the articles...
Last, I've included data for the Palau station in the Coral Triangle, a hotspot of biodiversity for corals, reef fish, reef invertebrates, and many other organisms. This area, in keeping with most of the Coral Triangle and the Western Pacific Warm Pool is warm, warm, and warm (Figure 4). The summers are typically in the mid 80's and temperatures drop all the way down to the low to mid 80's in winter"¦brrrr. There is clear seasonality even in Palau, though temperature doesn't vary that much seasonally. Many corals, fish, and invertebrates we might keep in our tanks are collected in areas with a climate like that of Palau.
Though corals may survive, grow and do well in cooler areas, look at where the most diversity comes from. Most of us learned that we had to keep our tanks cool, but that may not be the best thing we can do. There are several people who studied this closely as scientists and are also hobbyists, (not people writing books to sell or considering their next paid lecture,) who questioned the cool water advice long ago and have shown it is not a good advice. Yet the myth of cooler water persists, probably because it is still written in books and suggested by online vendors.
I would never advise anyone to keep their tanks in the upper 80's but I also wouldn't advise keeping them in upper 70's either, unless they kept creatures that require that cooler water for health. Traditionally our tanks have had a daily variation in temp from our lights, this is a good thing, it allows the corals to be accustomed to daily temp variations, just like they have seen for eons. If we lose that daily swing or intentionally try to prevent it then the corals lose that adaptability to variation. They will happily exist in a set temp but invariably something will happen to change that, heater malfunction, electrical outage, etc. and the temp will change, and the corals will stress.
A little excerpt from the articles...
Last, I've included data for the Palau station in the Coral Triangle, a hotspot of biodiversity for corals, reef fish, reef invertebrates, and many other organisms. This area, in keeping with most of the Coral Triangle and the Western Pacific Warm Pool is warm, warm, and warm (Figure 4). The summers are typically in the mid 80's and temperatures drop all the way down to the low to mid 80's in winter"¦brrrr. There is clear seasonality even in Palau, though temperature doesn't vary that much seasonally. Many corals, fish, and invertebrates we might keep in our tanks are collected in areas with a climate like that of Palau.
Though corals may survive, grow and do well in cooler areas, look at where the most diversity comes from. Most of us learned that we had to keep our tanks cool, but that may not be the best thing we can do. There are several people who studied this closely as scientists and are also hobbyists, (not people writing books to sell or considering their next paid lecture,) who questioned the cool water advice long ago and have shown it is not a good advice. Yet the myth of cooler water persists, probably because it is still written in books and suggested by online vendors.
I would never advise anyone to keep their tanks in the upper 80's but I also wouldn't advise keeping them in upper 70's either, unless they kept creatures that require that cooler water for health. Traditionally our tanks have had a daily variation in temp from our lights, this is a good thing, it allows the corals to be accustomed to daily temp variations, just like they have seen for eons. If we lose that daily swing or intentionally try to prevent it then the corals lose that adaptability to variation. They will happily exist in a set temp but invariably something will happen to change that, heater malfunction, electrical outage, etc. and the temp will change, and the corals will stress.
meshwheel
New member
In my experience anything above about 81 and you are flirting with disaster. Now this may be due to my geographical location. So Ca. is virtually a desert climate. I get above 82 and my snails start dying as well.
I have always opted for 78-79 with my chiller. Just for electricity costs. But................ now with my leds I am running at 76. And that's with my tank top fully covered!I see no adverse effects at this temperature whatsoever.
I could bump it up a little bit with my heater, but lets see what summer brings! Very much so with a heat wave, which we get every summer for 2-3 weeks.
I have always opted for 78-79 with my chiller. Just for electricity costs. But................ now with my leds I am running at 76. And that's with my tank top fully covered!I see no adverse effects at this temperature whatsoever.
I could bump it up a little bit with my heater, but lets see what summer brings! Very much so with a heat wave, which we get every summer for 2-3 weeks.
I go to 83-84 daily, but my tank is acclimated to it, yours is not, that is the difference. What happens to your tank if the chiller breaks, the electricity goes out for a day, etc? Your tank suffers, but mine won't suffer as much, higher temps are the norm for my tank, and since they are used to the daily fluctuation they are better able to handle a higher than normal fluctuation.
meshwheel
New member
Jack,
If you have a major heat wave your tank will bite it. Your not leaving yourself any room for swings. Mine runs at 76 with the heater on......................alot. So if we have a power outage, it would drop in temperature. I have a generator as well. So no worries if it happens.
Like i said, my chiller has not ran since I installed leds. Lower temps increase oxygen content in the water.
Remember, this is NOT a open reef in nature! We have no current coming in and exchanging water constantly. The seawater to animal ratio in our glass boxes is greatly increased.
Lower temps help keep bacterial blooms from taking off in our tanks as well. Many tanks that crash have all the oxygen depleted in them before this crash takes place.
Just upset a tank full of acropora and see what happens......
If you have a major heat wave your tank will bite it. Your not leaving yourself any room for swings. Mine runs at 76 with the heater on......................alot. So if we have a power outage, it would drop in temperature. I have a generator as well. So no worries if it happens.
Like i said, my chiller has not ran since I installed leds. Lower temps increase oxygen content in the water.
Remember, this is NOT a open reef in nature! We have no current coming in and exchanging water constantly. The seawater to animal ratio in our glass boxes is greatly increased.
Lower temps help keep bacterial blooms from taking off in our tanks as well. Many tanks that crash have all the oxygen depleted in them before this crash takes place.
Just upset a tank full of acropora and see what happens......
Exactly opposite Mesh, the greater the differential in two temps, the faster the change. I have been running higher than book taught temps since 2005, suffered an extended power outage in 2006 that lasted for days, tank got to high 80's and I lost almost nothing. It was mostly sps in the tank, I think all I lost were the Anthias. The difference in oxygen is negligible, just a few percent.
AcroporAddict
There is no substitute.
Agreed, but i definitely do not consider the upper 70s to be cool. 78.5 or so as an average is fine, with some upper and lower seasonal variation, and I really haven't seen any scientific literature to prove otherwise. My 465 does fine at 76 degrees in the winter, and that is just where I set it at so I avoid running heaters to keep it up at 78-79. Everything grows and does just great. Likewise in the summer, I don't run a chiller and my temp may creep up to 81-82. I let it so I don't have to run a chiller, and the reef does fine. I get daily fluctuations because I have 2260 watts of lighting over it, so the 76 degrees comes during lights out the last few hours before daylight starts again.
Corals can be acclimated to a higher or lower temperature range in a reef tank within certain parameters, but is one inherently better than the other? I doubt it.
And also, anecdotally, corals always do better at cooler temperatures than hotter temps shipping wise. Give me a too cool coral anytime over one that cooks. I have received SPS shipments with water in the 60s that have survived just fine, whereas anything in the mid to upper 80s+ shipping water is dead in the box.
My reef:
Last edited:
Someone finally said it out loud ...
rtparty
Raise The Reef!
This post isn't directed at anyone but as a whole:
Why is it that people want to argue FACTS and SCIENCE with OPINION and HERESAY?
I've been running my tank at 76F for a couple years now and have had by far the worst time. I've never once thought that temperature might be the problem.
Why is it that people want to argue FACTS and SCIENCE with OPINION and HERESAY?
I've been running my tank at 76F for a couple years now and have had by far the worst time. I've never once thought that temperature might be the problem.
Dave that's the oxygen difference, in a small bag of water it can make a difference, as well as the temp the coral is used to. By the way letting the tank go through its natural temp variation is the smartest way to do it. I do the same, I set the heater to where I want it and let the tank warm as it wants to. With LEDs this has the potential to be an issue because the tank does not get as much variation.
Similar threads
