Anyone Thinking of Dumping LEDS and going back to Halides

[d2mini]

I wonder if your just making stuff up, or just seeing what you want to see. I saw slight differences in coloration but only one I thought MH really did better. It was the 2nd example and then could only see slight differences with the others. In my "opinion" LED was better on a few but most were even. I'm new and still working on setting up my first tank. So I don't know all the in's and outs of the two camps but looking at the Vivid's experiment I don't see much either way for coloration. The host even states as much.

Have you seen the vivid tank in person like MedRed has?
There is nothing wrong with being new (glad to have ya!) but you are brand new at this and you are questioning someone with years of experience.
Same with JPMagyar who posted up above.
These are guys you need to listen to and learn from.

 

[Uncle Salty 05]

I'm not new by any means.
MH are a better lighting system today period.
LEDs may one day be as good or even better, but that day has yet to come.:deadhorse1:

 

[shred5]

Zoas aren't why people go back to mh or t5.
It's almost all about SPS issues.

Exactly...

I did do a experiment though on two identical frag tanks tied together on the same sump... Same circulation pumps too...

It wasn't a intentional experiment, I had a t-5 fixture so it went over one tank and I bought another led fixture for the other tank.. I was originally going to change out the t-5 for another led to save money on energy.. I ended up purchasing another led fixture. I ended up selling the new led fixture and now will be selling the other led fixture because I am now changing that back to t-5 again. I didn't notice too much of a difference in growth but coloring big difference.. But growth was hard to tell because they were frag tanks and after 6 months I had had it with the leds. Just not enough time to say which is better in growth, Saw decent growth in both.

People can claim what they want but I understand lighting so it is not because I dont know how to set up a light fixture. I work in the lighting industry and have been in the reef hobby for around 30 years now.

 

[Ztrain]

Have you seen the vivid tank in person like MedRed has?
There is nothing wrong with being new (glad to have ya!) but you are brand new at this and you are questioning someone with years of experience.
Same with JPMagyar who posted up above.
These are guys you need to listen to and learn from.

I tend to be the kind of person that looks at facts and research. I can say that 5 of the 7 LFS that I visit in my area use almost 100% LEDs on their tanks and that of the best 3, 2 of them use customized DIY rigs. The best ones with the cleanest tanks at all using LEDs and recommend them and say they are the best so that is why they use them. I have seen them in person. They have no aiptasia and other parasites in their tanks and they are extremely clean and well maintained.

The above statement sounds great. But it really doesn't mean anything. It's also 100% made up as an example but still. I don't know if those tanks are really healthy or not. But it's my perception that my subjective opinion is hey their stuff is really lookin good and healthy under LED lights. So I try and look for factual verifiable evidence about things. Which right now there is not a whole lot of one way or the other. Of Medred I'm sure he knows a lot more about this stuff then I do. I have zero illusion about that, just from my own lack of experience. But that's how new people to something learn. Look at a child. What's their favorite question? WHY?? Questioning a person with more experience is the best way to learn.

You can read through peoples posts and build up a sense of their opinion. Then they give you evidence for their opinion and say that it is based on this. Then the owner of said evidence says this wasn't setup to show and definitely doesn't represent what is trying to be presented as evidence to a side of a debate......... Okay there is obvious bias there, which is fine. Almost everyone is biased for their own reason. But at the same time then don't try and claim ohh I've seen it in person and if you could you'd see it too.......

We need some verifiable and testable research done. But like others have said just because you can adjust LEDs spectrums doesn't mean you should. If people could slide bars around on their computers and change their MH and T5 lights I'd guess they'd screw up their corals just as much as they did with their LEDs. I think it's the operators that are the problem not the technology.

Personally this is more of a debatable interest for me. Coming from a technology background I see arguments like this all the time. This video game system is better because of blah. This computer is better because of bleh etc.

Show me a real comparison. The guy who owns the vivid experiment said that a certain set of corals didn't react well on either side but overall both sides are doing extremely well under both. So who has more credibility. The guy running the experiment and knows all the conditions of the water quality, light, and specimens in the tank and says they're all doing well. Or someone who's gone in there a few times and claiming something completely different because they are claiming to have seen the tank. I guess the 2nd must be observing something that the owner isn't. Perception is reality.

I'd love to learn from these guy's but show me something definitive to look at.

 

[Khemul]

It'd be silly for an LFS to not love LED and proclaim them as the best thing ever.

Just the blue channel alone makes LEDs the next best thing from a marketing/sales point-of-view. The color/white channels are a nice add-on that the customer could probably find a use for...

 

[d2mini]

Ztrain, this thread has gone on for 118 pages and everything you've said, has been said several times already. Please go back and read all 118 pages before posting further (if you haven't already). If after reading them all you still don't find the facts that you are looking for, then I'm sorry to say you just won't ever because this thread is a broken record, repeating the same arguments over and over again.

There is plenty of examples scattered through the thread. Several of us have posted evidence of our own tanks that were run long term using LED and run long term running MH/T5 and it was obvious that MH/T5 is superior in coral growth/health/color, especially SPS. I can tell you that my own tank was run for nearly two years running what is considered some of the top led fixtures in the industry. Yet when I finally switched to mh/t5, I saw dramatic changes for the better, and quite quickly I might add.

The best advice I can give you, which I've given others, is to try it for yourself.
Don't hold your breath on finding any kind of scientific study on the matter.

Most LFS, do not GROW coral. The coral comes in, they put it on display and their sole intent is to sell it as quickly as possible. LED bring out some crazy colors so for a temporary store display, they are hard to beat.

 

[Ztrain]

There is plenty of examples scattered through the thread. Several of us have posted evidence of our own tanks that were run long term using LED and run long term running MH/T5 and it was obvious that MH/T5 is superior in coral growth/health/color, especially SPS. I can tell you that my own tank was run for nearly two years running what is considered some of the top led fixtures in the industry. Yet when I finally switched to mh/t5, I saw dramatic changes for the better, and quite quickly I might add.

What LED fixture were you using and what settings? What MH/T5 setup did you switch too?

While still subjective that would be very useful information if people were actually posting what they found didn't work for them and then what did. It would be interesting to see if there are any patterns such as certain brands or model of emitters people were not having good results with. Or if people leaving the default settings were having good results but people that "tweaked" settings were having problems with their tanks. Like everyone that ran their LEDs at 75% or some other reduced % had issues. Not outside the realm of possibility since when you reduce power to LEDs they will have a very different spectrum then when run at full.

Like I mentioned before I will probably start with the TMC setup on the tank I'm planning but I'm not opposed to tossing it and getting an Aquatic Life T5 fixture for $120 if the TMC doesn't work. With years in the computer industry I have zero brand or method loyalty and always look for what is the best. But yeah I think I skipped the prior to 2013 posts. But what I've seen is a lot of LEDs rock or LEDs suck etc same for T5/MH. I think if we had more details such as brand, model, and configuration some very interesting and enlightening patterns may start to form that could help everyone rather then subjective opinion.

 

[d2mini]

What LED fixture were you using and what settings? What MH/T5 setup did you switch too?

Back on page 93 you would find a post by me where I posted this link to my build thread.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?p=22678372#post22678372

 

[Chris Mills]

I tend to be the kind of person that looks at facts and research. I can say that 5 of the 7 LFS that I visit in my area use almost 100% LEDs on their tanks and that of the best 3, 2 of them use customized DIY rigs.

Which area are you in?

Ztrain - for a Reef Central newbie, you sure are well informed and opinionated. Do you have another RC account?

 

[Ztrain]

Which area are you in?

Ztrain - for a Reef Central newbie, you sure are well informed and opinionated. Do you have another RC account?

Nope just one account. I've been reading literally everything I can the last two months. Watched a few times the entire Vivid Aquarium, NYStealo, BRS, and many more youtube channels. Scoured the FishLore site, DFS and many more.

The problem is I'm exactly the opposite of opinionated. I'm looking for details and the problem is there are many contradicting opinions out there. Which all claim that theirs is of course the correct one. Well they all can't be best as we say. So I'm trying to figure things out. The problem is things like I noticed a marked improvement with LEDs and I noticed better improvement with MH doesn't give much useful details. What LEDs, what settings, what MH, what color temp etc.

I have no doubt that someone gets a Fluval or Finnex and they have bad results. But I'd guess with a Radion they'd have better luck. But then I see people go Radion sucks and then later you see a post from them going well I turned up the green and yellow and the blue down because I thought it looked bad and then they complain that their stuff started crashing. So ........ that is my delema.

So no I'm exactly the opposite of opinionated. I don't want to spend $500+ on a lighting fixture MH or LED just to find out I got the wrong thing later. I really like the dimmable options, lack of heat, and watts on LEDs. But don't want to get the Radion's because I hear a lot of people having issues with them. But is it the fixture or people tinkering with it? Anyways.......

 

[falconut]

I switched from my MH/VHO combo a little over 6 months ago & couldn't be happier. The MH/VHO were nice, but ran hotter and just couldn't get a perfect color. I tried many bulbs. I had the MH/VHO's for over 9 years.

The corals are coloring better under the LEDs, (Ocean Revive Arctic S026) and growing just as quickly. I know 6 months is way less than 9 years, but I'm very impressed thus far. JMO

 

[zoomonster]

A couple thoughts...

A fish store owner I know told me the only reason he switched to LED was to save major money in electricity, cooling and bulb replacement. Mostly fish so making stuff look better/grow is irrelevant.

On the other hand I know a reason why many fish stores like LED (aside from selling them). That is what they can do with colors if you are into the black light room look which is very appealing to many (my self included to a degree). To take WWC as an example the front half of the store is blacked out and all those LEDS cranking major blue actinic light making stuff look way better than it ever will in the average tank. Someones brain on acid would probably implode :lol: I'll have to admit some of my more florescent stuff would probably look better when I go to Halides off (even with actinic T5's) if I had LEDS. The colors on some of my ricordias show that when the blue led moonlights hit them. Honestly I wish I had the best of both worlds. LED's do seem to allow for more focused intensity and actinic color enhancement. Funny thing is I used to get more actinic pop out of two VHO actinics than I do out of 4 80w T5's.

Reef-a-palooza in Orlando was another perfect example. Pretty much all the frag peddlers had blue cranked way up and the Kessil blue tunas seemed pretty popular. And of course one vendor actually set up his frags in a black tent.

So I think most fish stores with LED's have other motives than making stuff grow and displaying natural colors. Its more about saving money and making livestock fly out the door.

 

[nynick]

Ztrain, try looking in this thread...

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2211981&highlight=cheap+chinese

Far more useful facts and less editorials.

 

[dc]

Ok kids, don't make us close this thread again.

 

[Wazzel]

Nope just one account. I've been reading literally everything I can the last two months. Watched a few times the entire Vivid Aquarium, NYStealo, BRS, and many more youtube channels. Scoured the FishLore site, DFS and many more.

The problem is I'm exactly the opposite of opinionated. I'm looking for details and the problem is there are many contradicting opinions out there. Which all claim that theirs is of course the correct one. Well they all can't be best as we say. So I'm trying to figure things out. The problem is things like I noticed a marked improvement with LEDs and I noticed better improvement with MH doesn't give much useful details. What LEDs, what settings, what MH, what color temp etc.

I have no doubt that someone gets a Fluval or Finnex and they have bad results. But I'd guess with a Radion they'd have better luck. But then I see people go Radion sucks and then later you see a post from them going well I turned up the green and yellow and the blue down because I thought it looked bad and then they complain that their stuff started crashing. So ........ that is my delema.

So no I'm exactly the opposite of opinionated. I don't want to spend $500+ on a lighting fixture MH or LED just to find out I got the wrong thing later. I really like the dimmable options, lack of heat, and watts on LEDs. But don't want to get the Radion's because I hear a lot of people having issues with them. But is it the fixture or people tinkering with it? Anyways.......

For the high end fixtures only. I think it is people not knowing how to use them. Not that I am an expert or anything. Maybe they tinker to much, ramp up the power to fast, etc. Nothing good happens fast in a reef tank. I do believe that can be applied to tinkering with a controllable LED fixture.

 

[jda]

I don't know about y'all, but I rarely buy any coral from most LFS. Most have windex looking tanks with LED and a handful of so-so run-of-the-mill frags. There is one store in town that has high end stuff, or I go and see a coral specialist - both use 400W radiums over most of their tanks. One uses VHO over a softie tank and has the best looking, and best selection, of zoas in town. Most of us are higher end reefers here - there is not much that we can/should be learning from the typical LFS.

 

[Urbs]

I have Eco Radion G2 w 4 T5's and I'm switching to 400 w Radium. Not because I hate Led just want to see how corals respond to MH. I'm 98% SPS some are rocking and some are just ok. Since I'm no lighting expert I'm wanting to eliminate my lighting as a possible problem.

If I like this set up I will keep G2 and run a cube lps tank

 

[frank2902]

I have tried MH, T5 and led. Currently I'm running hybrid with MH and royal blue and blue leds and I think that is a good to go. You have the best of both worlds, the natural look and good growth that MH can give you and the nice blue from the leds.

The setup is;

250MH giesemann megachrome 12500k
60w Cree Blue
30w Cree Royal Blue.

Reflector is btw a luminarc.

ps. the lightfixture is not yet finished, still waiting for a piece of aluminium so that you won't see the reflector and heatsink on top.

 

[tmc1313]

I have tried MH, T5 and led. Currently I'm running hybrid with MH and royal blue and blue leds and I think that is a good to go. You have the best of both worlds, the natural look and good growth that MH can give you and the nice blue from the leds.

The setup is;

250MH giesemann megachrome 12500k
60w Cree Blue
30w Cree Royal Blue.

Reflector is btw a luminarc.

ps. the lightfixture is not yet finished, still waiting for a piece of aluminium so that you won't see the reflector and heatsink on top.

I kind of did the same thing as well. I have a Giesemann 48" 2x250 watt --4x54 watt T5 fixture. I came to the realization I will never like the look of T5's no matter how hard I try. So I ripped out the T5's from the fixture and replaced them with two blue 48" reefbrite strips. They fit great and it almost looks like I bought the fixture this way. I couldn't be happier and I'm loving the color.

 

[d2mini]

I have tried MH, T5 and led. Currently I'm running hybrid with MH and royal blue and blue leds and I think that is a good to go. You have the best of both worlds, the natural look and good growth that MH can give you and the nice blue from the leds.

Nice looking tank.