Anyone Thinking of Dumping LEDS and going back to Halides

[dtum]

Not to mention I started this latest round of discourse with two photos of corals that looked dismal. Most of Sanjays corals were beautiful so to say other parameters may be the cause is to me to ignore the obvious answer that the Lokani and the Ice Fire just don't like LEDs.

Good point as well. I believe that I saw Sanjay comment under Lokani or Ice Fire about its quality and was blaming this coloration to the not-so-good color mixing in that particular spot in his tank (spread).

 

[mhucasey]

JPMagyar, I was not arguing that LEDs can match MH in all the terms that you've listed. In my opinion right now MH is far superior than LED in almost all factors and this thread argues about it quite thoroughly.

One point that was also argued in this thread was that it is simply not possible to achieve good (great?) coloration in high end SPS acros with LEDs even if money is not an issue and you can throw as many top of the line LEDs at it. That the spectrum is simply wrong and great coloration is not possible. These photos show me that this is not the case.

I do agree that in almost every aspect MH is a much easier way to achieve good results and not kill your corals.

I would second this position. With enough money and enough electricity and enough emitters, you can replicate the effects of MH and T5. When you reach that threshold, however, You will have a light unit that is many more times the cost of MH or T5 and which uses almost as much juice as T5 or MH.

I'm glad Sanjay is performing this experiment, but I think that even with packing the canopy with Radions he can only get "close" to the even distribution of light under the older technologies. There will still be hot-spots and drop-off areas. I hope he carefully words his assessment of the lights so that the headline isn't simplified to "Sanjay endorses LEDs for SPS".

 

[d2mini]

I hope he carefully words his assessment of the lights so that the headline isn't simplified to "Sanjay endorses LEDs for SPS".

Maybe I will find out next month when he is here in Houston talking about his lighting.

 

[jda]

If you want more info, have a chat on the side. He was very careful at MACNA during his speech really indict anything or anybody.

 

[hart24601]

It would be interesting to post photos and switch the captions, the LED photos and say they are MH and the opposite. Wait for the comments and reveal the truth and see if people are consistent with their thoughts are of they are biased just knowing the light source or cherry picking photos to show their point.

 

[shermanator]

Did Sanjay specify at what power he's running the Radions? At 1 Radion per 2 sq. ft. I cannot imagine he's running them anywhere near full power.

It does speak to the hotspot / distribution problem of puck style (worse yet is Pacific Sun SMT style) LEDs. I've never understood making LEDs even more of a point source by clustering them together. I suppose it solves the blending problem, but it introduces so many more problems.

 

[jda]

The only think that he mentioned is that they were using more wattage than his MH were before. IIRC, he was running them pretty high on power.

 

[Fredfish]

I would second this position. With enough money and enough electricity and enough emitters, you can replicate the effects of MH and T5. When you reach that threshold, however, You will have a light unit that is many more times the cost of MH or T5 and which uses almost as much juice as T5 or MH.

...It does speak to the hotspot / distribution problem of puck style (worse yet is Pacific Sun SMT style) LEDs. I've never understood making LEDs even more of a point source by clustering them together. I suppose it solves the blending problem, but it introduces so many more problems.

We are at the point where LEDs are getting the mix of color right, but we are not yet at the ideal cluster size. You can very easily get to 13 up clusters with good color and there are several smaller hobbyist manufacturers doing this already. This should help to resolve the spread issue.

Also, the smaller the cluster is the more effectively you can make use of the LEDs at closer to full power. So, you can both increase the number of clusters (improve light spread) and reduce the number of LEDs needed for full coverage.

As for the rest of the argument, the answer is still it depends. MH certainly has the set and forget advantage and is a known quantity, but tell a guy with a 5 or 10 gallon nano-tank it MH or nothing...

 

[JPMagyar]

It would be interesting to post photos and switch the captions, the LED photos and say they are MH and the opposite. Wait for the comments and reveal the truth and see if people are consistent with their thoughts are of they are biased just knowing the light source or cherry picking photos to show their point.

Really it has nothing to do with photos for me. If you look back at my posting history you will see that I experimented with a half dozen high end LED fixtures on my own tank, my basement 180, and several friends tanks so I can safely say I have extensive experience with SPS and LEDs. I only use photos online because that is the only way to demonstrate what I experienced in real life. I am active on this thread trying to show the benefits of MH because I feel strongly that too many new reefers are going for LEDs and I am afraid they will have discouraging results. Now for those with a nano or a smaller tank sensitive to heat then I think LEDs are the best option but i don't think they are the best option if someone is starting a new larger SPS heavy reef.

 

[Mishri]

It would be interesting to post photos and switch the captions, the LED photos and say they are MH and the opposite. Wait for the comments and reveal the truth and see if people are consistent with their thoughts are of they are biased just knowing the light source or cherry picking photos to show their point.

I was excited about LEDs, I was thinking I might put them on one of my tanks. Then I saw some shots of corals, frags from the same coral in the same tank under different lighting and the LED lit SPS looked like their growth patterns were stunted, shorter with more branching while the MH had much longer growths before branching. This was from someone who was saying LED technology is ready.. and yes, I can see sps will grow under LED...

Not sure what to make of it.. but I'll probably continue the "wait and see" with LEDs.

 

[power boat jim]

I was excited about LEDs, I was thinking I might put them on one of my tanks. Then I saw some shots of corals, frags from the same coral in the same tank under different lighting and the LED lit SPS looked like their growth patterns were stunted, shorter with more branching while the MH had much longer growths before branching. This was from someone who was saying LED technology is ready.. and yes, I can see sps will grow under LED...

Not sure what to make of it.. but I'll probably continue the "wait and see" with LEDs.

I dont know that the type of light you use is the major factor in shaping the growth pattern of coral. Its my experience and it appears in this case that strength and direction of flow is probably a far bigger influence. It seems that it is getting to the point here that light is becoming the only factor that determines the health, growth and color of coral. We know that is the furthest thing from the truth. We need to consider everything else before making an assumption about a light source as such being the only controlling factor.

 

[JPMagyar]

I dont know that the type of light you use is the major factor in shaping the growth pattern of coral. Its my experience and it appears in this case that strength and direction of flow is probably a far bigger influence. It seems that it is getting to the point here that light is becoming the only factor that determines the health, growth and color of coral. We know that is the furthest thing from the truth. We need to consider everything else before making an assumption about a light source as such being the only controlling factor.

Jim, You know my online personality, and I hope you believe that what I say is in no way meant to be taken personally, but I absolutely have to disagree. Just go back and look at the pictures posted from Sanjay's tank. Some of his corals are spectacular and some are total dogs and the dense growth with odd formations is NEVER found in a metal halide tank. Show me a Hawkins with that growth formation in a MH tank or an Ice Fire with the growth you see in Sanjay's tank. I can find two or three other Hawkins or Ice Fires under LEDs with that very same growth pattern, and I have seen those patterns in person in LED tanks grown by very accomplished local reefers. LED light is different as I have pointed out ad nauseam. The growth patterns and colors of corals are showing you that fact quite clearly. Not all corals and not all colors and certainly the changed growth pattern may be nice to the eye of the beholder so perhaps some folks will prefer LED patterns and colors, but I truly think comments like those you are making are ignoring years of evidence. All other factors being equal LEDs grow corals in a different way than MH or T5.

 

[jackson6745]

Joe did you ever go all T5 at one point over your reef? The reason why I ask is because I only ran t5 over a smaller SPS reef, with good results. In my current 115g reef I am starting to get serious shadowing problems from SPS growth. This is my fault of course because I jammed too many corals in there and didn't account for growth. I'm thinking that 12 high output t5's might eliminate shadowing and I'll keep good SPS color.

BTW my tank is 32x32x26 and current lighting is a Geisemann Spectra 24" with 400w halide + 4 t5's + 2 blue LED reefbrite.

Interested in hearing you thoughts because I seem to agree with everything you post

 

[JPMagyar]

Joe did you ever go all T5 at one point over your reef? The reason why I ask is because I only ran t5 over a smaller SPS reef, with good results. In my current 115g reef I am starting to get serious shadowing problems from SPS growth. This is my fault of course because I jammed too many corals in there and didn't account for growth. I'm thinking that 12 high output t5's might eliminate shadowing and I'll keep good SPS color.

BTW my tank is 32x32x26 and current lighting is a Geisemann Spectra 24" with 400w halide + 4 t5's + 2 blue LED reefbrite.

Interested in hearing you thoughts because I seem to agree with everything you post

Thanks for the huge compliment.

I never went pure T5, but I came pretty close with 2 years of Sfilgoi fixtures. I had 16 T5s and 4 150 watt Radium HQIs. The HQIs were really just there to provide shimmer. No doubt the colors were as good as MH the issue, I think, and for this I have only my gut feeling, was that T5s need to be replaced way more often than folks realize or want to believe. I think Kryzsztof replaces his on a 6 month schedule. What I truly love about T5 and what may make me try T5 again is because I really, really, really want a perfect replication of dawn/dusk and moonlight. Pac Sun makes awesome moonlight, and ATI has great dawn/dusk simulations, but no one yet has put the two together except for the Giesemann Moonlight, but that is outrageously expensive.

Clearly Kryzsztof's success shows the efficacy of T5. I'm just not sure if there is a depth limit or a frequency of bulb change requirement neither of which is fully understood.

 

[Mishri]

I dont know that the type of light you use is the major factor in shaping the growth pattern of coral. Its my experience and it appears in this case that strength and direction of flow is probably a far bigger influence. It seems that it is getting to the point here that light is becoming the only factor that determines the health, growth and color of coral. We know that is the furthest thing from the truth. We need to consider everything else before making an assumption about a light source as such being the only controlling factor.

I don't know... An entire half of a tank wouldn't have the flow the other half did... seems a stretch. I realize that flow does have an impact on coral growth patterns, but the goal here was to make all things equal, which I would assume included flow.

 

[power boat jim]

Jim, You know my online personality, and I hope you believe that what I say is in no way meant to be taken personally, but I absolutely have to disagree. Just go back and look at the pictures posted from Sanjay's tank. Some of his corals are spectacular and some are total dogs and the dense growth with odd formations is NEVER found in a metal halide tank. Show me a Hawkins with that growth formation in a MH tank or an Ice Fire with the growth you see in Sanjay's tank. I can find two or three other Hawkins or Ice Fires under LEDs with that very same growth pattern, and I have seen those patterns in person in LED tanks grown by very accomplished local reefers. LED light is different as I have pointed out ad nauseam. The growth patterns and colors of corals are showing you that fact quite clearly. Not all corals and not all colors and certainly the changed growth pattern may be nice to the eye of the beholder so perhaps some folks will prefer LED patterns and colors, but I truly think comments like those you are making are ignoring years of evidence. All other factors being equal LEDs grow corals in a different way than MH or T5.

Joe, I take no offense in your response. The forum is for expressing opinions, facts and personal experiences. I have no problem with a respectful discussion, it makes things a bit more interesting. Also, I cant always see all the photos posted here depending on what computer I am using.

That said, I agree with just about everything you said about LEDs. I now have 3 Radions over the front of my 180 and a 400w MH over the center rear of the tank. THe tank looks good with this combination. However, growth patterns after moving a couple of older corals under the MH from the LEDs has not changed. Granted it has not been but three months since the switch and this tank is still not back to what it was a couple years ago but thats a whole other story. Things are still not growing that great under either light source and what is growing seems more influenced by flow as far as shape goes then lights, hence my observation/ opinion. :beer:

 

[Tuffloud1]

Hello everyone, I am absolutely at my wits end with my AI Hydra LED lights. I have 2 of them above my 90 gallon and I am attempting to grow SPS.

Please just assume that my water parameters are perfect, with that said, I spent 800 dollars on a pair of lights that don't live up to what they are supposed to do.

What would all you experienced SPS guys recommend for me? Ditch the Hydras and get MH or T5 or supplement one of these with my Hydras so I can keep dawn/dusk effects? There isn't a lot of room above an in-wall 48x18x24 tank so I'm not sure how keeping the Hydras would work.

I have the Hydras controlled through my Apex with the Aqua Illuminations module that I also bought.

My SPS are looking faded, tired and starving. The polyps come out completely at night, they are growing/encrusting, but the color looks horrendous.

I use the Apogee PAR meter and the best I get is 250 in a small circle 7 inches under water line. Everywhere else is 150 to 70 on the sand bed.

Anyway, I need to change and save my corals, please let me know what you guys think would be a good unit for my application, I know nothing about the various T5's or MH lights.

 

[jackson6745]

Hello everyone, I am absolutely at my wits end with my AI Hydra LED lights. I have 2 of them above my 90 gallon and I am attempting to grow SPS.

Please just assume that my water parameters are perfect, with that said, I spent 800 dollars on a pair of lights that don't live up to what they are supposed to do.

What would all you experienced SPS guys recommend for me? Ditch the Hydras and get MH or T5 or supplement one of these with my Hydras so I can keep dawn/dusk effects? There isn't a lot of room above an in-wall 48x18x24 tank so I'm not sure how keeping the Hydras would work.

I have the Hydras controlled through my Apex with the Aqua Illuminations module that I also bought.

My SPS are looking faded, tired and starving. The polyps come out completely at night, they are growing/encrusting, but the color looks horrendous.

I use the Apogee PAR meter and the best I get is 250 in a small circle 7 inches under water line. Everywhere else is 150 to 70 on the sand bed.

Anyway, I need to change and save my corals, please let me know what you guys think would be a good unit for my application, I know nothing about the various T5's or MH lights.

You water parms are not "perfect" (balanced) for your lighting if you colors are faded and starving looking, even under the LED's. You should be able to pull off decent colors on most pieces, but you probably have to increase your feeding and nutrient level. A lot of my buddies were able to have better LED success when adding a couple T5's in conjunction. The T5's eliminated the LED shadowing and coral health and colors improved. I'd still rather have MH and T5 but I don't think that will fix your fading problem right away.

 

[jackson6745]

Thanks for the huge compliment.

I never went pure T5, but I came pretty close with 2 years of Sfilgoi fixtures. I had 16 T5s and 4 150 watt Radium HQIs. The HQIs were really just there to provide shimmer. No doubt the colors were as good as MH the issue, I think, and for this I have only my gut feeling, was that T5s need to be replaced way more often than folks realize or want to believe. I think Kryzsztof replaces his on a 6 month schedule. What I truly love about T5 and what may make me try T5 again is because I really, really, really want a perfect replication of dawn/dusk and moonlight. Pac Sun makes awesome moonlight, and ATI has great dawn/dusk simulations, but no one yet has put the two together except for the Giesemann Moonlight, but that is outrageously expensive.

Clearly Kryzsztof's success shows the efficacy of T5. I'm just not sure if there is a depth limit or a frequency of bulb change requirement neither of which is fully understood.

That is complete coverage! I need to achieve something closer to this. Did you buy the stealth HQI fixtures new? Did you like them? I typically don't like DE halides because of the the lack of spread,and I always crack the bulbs when removing them :loll:
I looked at the 2x250w HQI fixture, but it's so difficult to part with a 400w Radium :hmm2: Looks like I may have to retrofit in a larger MH reflector + more T5's into a floating canopy:headwallblue:

 

[power boat jim]

Hello everyone, I am absolutely at my wits end with my AI Hydra LED lights. I have 2 of them above my 90 gallon and I am attempting to grow SPS.

Please just assume that my water parameters are perfect, with that said, I spent 800 dollars on a pair of lights that don't live up to what they are supposed to do.

What would all you experienced SPS guys recommend for me? Ditch the Hydras and get MH or T5 or supplement one of these with my Hydras so I can keep dawn/dusk effects? There isn't a lot of room above an in-wall 48x18x24 tank so I'm not sure how keeping the Hydras would work.

I have the Hydras controlled through my Apex with the Aqua Illuminations module that I also bought.





My SPS are looking faded, tired and starving. The polyps come out completely at night, they are growing/encrusting, but the color looks horrendous.

I use the Apogee PAR meter and the best I get is 250 in a small circle 7 inches under water line. Everywhere else is 150 to 70 on the sand bed.

Anyway, I need to change and save my corals, please let me know what you guys think would be a good unit for my application, I know nothing about the various T5's or MH lights.

You may want to do a search and find out what others are using as a setting for those lights. I had AI sols that would give 900 par at the top of the tank and 150 at the bottom and they were set at 70%. You should not need supplimental lighting with full spectrum units if you have enough of them. You can howwever do as stated above and use a supplimental system and buy less LED units. I think you need more then two to fully cover over the size tank you are running.