Anyone Thinking of Dumping LEDS and going back to Halides

[muttley101]

I'd like to see some factual data to back that up.
Why would a bulb like the Radium for example look consistently the same from batch to batch?

It is because Radium does make a bulb that is specific to Aquarium/Horticulture.

http://www.radium.de/en/products/metal-halide-lamp-quartz-burner-hri-t-250w230be40

 

[Wazzel]

Well regardless if it is specifically manufactures for aquariums or not they are manufactured to a specification so they will be the same all the time.

 

[d2mini]

Well regardless if it is specifically manufactures for aquariums or not they are manufactured to a specification so they will be the same all the time.

Right, but that's different than how this sounds.
"We get whatever industry orders and it gets labeled whatever the importer wants."

 

[Wazzel]

Right, but that's different than how this sounds.
"We get whatever industry orders and it gets labeled whatever the importer wants."

I do not agre with the assessment that we get whatever either. Somebody is giving manufacturing requirements.

 

[Aqualund]

So.

It's been about a year now, and if you look back to the beginning of this thread I was one of the fiercest proponents of LED's taking the place of Halide no problem. A long as you put the time in to create a mutli color array that covers all spectrums.

Well I was right and wrong. As you know I own a coral farm, with a few hundred variations of each type of coral, and these are my findings of each type of coral and each type of lighting.

All of my led light fixtures were made with top bin cree or the led group buy brand. Using controlled levels of 400,410,420,430,455,475,490,520,600,630,660, CW,WW,NW 3 watt leds controlled by stormx to attain replicated spectral plot of a radium 20k at a par of 200-350 for 8-10 hours per day.

1. Acropora.

- The glow and hue from smooth skin acros is unmatched under Ushio 6500k. You simply cannot achieve under leds what you can under these lights.
- Milleporas of all color varieties look the best under radium 20k
- Red planets and variations of this type do well and look great under MH and Leds.
- Other acros were spotty, but all saw the most growth and polyp extension under ushio 6500k. Coloration for all corals was best under radium 20k (except the smooth skins. what the ushio did to them was amazing)

2. Paly and Zoo

- They dont care

3. Stylo, seriatapora, pocillipora, hydnophora varieties, etc.

-Although some did "ok" under LED only...others would straight up die after a few months.
-None died under Halide.
-All of them did the best in growth, coloration, and health under LED/T5 mix in a spectrum shifted toward 490nm, but also supplemented with heavy purple as well.

4. Acans. Fine under any light. Best coloration under t5...heavily blue and purple lit with a strong green/red component.

5. Montiporas-- yeah they dont care either. Good under all lighting.

6. LPS- stay alive and grow under any light with a minimum par of 200...but see the most polyp extension and tissue expansion under halide.

7. Corallimorpharians- best physical appeaance and coloration under t5's, but grow and do fine under any light.


So yeah lots of variations...but for ease of use and maximum efficiency to just let the coral grow and maximize enjoyment...I definitely recommend a majority of the light come from Halide or T5, and if you want more pop, supplement with leds...

I think they are great to aid in the simulations of sunrise, sunset, clouds and moonlighting...after that, it depends on your husbandry.

 

[Wazzel]

I am coming up on a year with my LEDs and still happy. Still do not think that are the game changer they were billed to be. I would not have dumped a working system to change. Still think they can be as good as MH or t-5, but not better.

 

[alton]

The only problem I still have with Ecotech and AI is the fact of the 1 year warranty. If you do not have confidence in your LEDs lasting, why should I? I do use some BML Leds, but they come with a 3 year warranty.

 

[overexposed]

The only problem I still have with Ecotech and AI is the fact of the 1 year warranty. If you do not have confidence in your LEDs lasting, why should I? I do use some BML Leds, but they come with a 3 year warranty.

That's kind of brutal since they claim that LEDs should last 20 or 50 thousand hours or whatever the number is. I didn't realize that Ecotec's warranties were so short!!!

My personal experience with running DIY LEDs was that they failed after just over a year of usage. Main reason I wanted to try out MH was because about a third of my diodes quit on me and I didn't want to reinvest ant time or money into my DIY fixtures without first trying an alternative technology which happened to come in around the same price. (I was able to aquire MH bulbs, reflectors and ballasts for LESS $$ than it would have cost me to replace the burned out diodes, without even taking into consideration the time I would have spent soldering etc.) Needless to say now that I have tried MH I am never going back to LED. The difference in my corals' health has been very drastic.

 

[GroktheCube]

Ya, that can help but for me, my problem wasn't with my rockscape but with the light not wrapping around the coral once they started growing.
I had posted pics of the immediate difference the new lights made in my purple stylophora colony as an example.

Notice how the color and PE came back underneath and notice the tighter grouping of branches.
This was just 3 months after the switch.

Another way to somewhat get around this is to raise your lights, but you lose par fast with LED, especially once you are outside of dead center under the pucks. Another reason to have a closer grouping of light units, for more overlap.

I observed the same exact thing with my Stylo. That picture looks like it could have come from my tank!

 

[meshwheel]

Regardless of whats said on here, LED's can and do grow corals. Even my cheap Reefbreeders fixture grows them as well as any metal halide I have ever had did. And I have had a lot of metal halides! From Osram powerstars to Radiums to Hamiltons etc. etc.
You can rant and rave all you want. Lay your hand on your leds.Now, Lay your hand on your metal halides. The metal halides will burn the hell out of you..........DONE ON THE HEAT COMPARISON.
No bulbs to replace, money savings on your electric bill. In southern California its huge!!!
Then you want to talk flexibility? No comparison!! One thing I always hated about metal halides was the "SHOCK" to my corals when the halides kicked on! And its a shock. You can say all you want, its far from natural.
So if you cannot grow corals under leds, then LOOK FOR THE PROBLEM ELSEWHERE!
If you tank is less then 1 year old, its not even close to being stable and matured..............hint hint.....

 

[d2mini]

So.

It's been about a year now, and if you look back to the beginning of this thread I was one of the fiercest proponents of LED's taking the place of Halide no problem. A long as you put the time in to create a mutli color array that covers all spectrums.

Well I was right and wrong. As you know I own a coral farm, with a few hundred variations of each type of coral, and these are my findings of each type of coral and each type of lighting.

All of my led light fixtures were made with top bin cree or the led group buy brand. Using controlled levels of 400,410,420,430,455,475,490,520,600,630,660, CW,WW,NW 3 watt leds controlled by stormx to attain replicated spectral plot of a radium 20k at a par of 200-350 for 8-10 hours per day.

1. Acropora.

- The glow and hue from smooth skin acros is unmatched under Ushio 6500k. You simply cannot achieve under leds what you can under these lights.
- Milleporas of all color varieties look the best under radium 20k
- Red planets and variations of this type do well and look great under MH and Leds.
- Other acros were spotty, but all saw the most growth and polyp extension under ushio 6500k. Coloration for all corals was best under radium 20k (except the smooth skins. what the ushio did to them was amazing)

2. Paly and Zoo

- They dont care

3. Stylo, seriatapora, pocillipora, hydnophora varieties, etc.

-Although some did "ok" under LED only...others would straight up die after a few months.
-None died under Halide.
-All of them did the best in growth, coloration, and health under LED/T5 mix in a spectrum shifted toward 490nm, but also supplemented with heavy purple as well.

4. Acans. Fine under any light. Best coloration under t5...heavily blue and purple lit with a strong green/red component.

5. Montiporas-- yeah they dont care either. Good under all lighting.

6. LPS- stay alive and grow under any light with a minimum par of 200...but see the most polyp extension and tissue expansion under halide.

7. Corallimorpharians- best physical appeaance and coloration under t5's, but grow and do fine under any light.


So yeah lots of variations...but for ease of use and maximum efficiency to just let the coral grow and maximize enjoyment...I definitely recommend a majority of the light come from Halide or T5, and if you want more pop, supplement with leds...

I think they are great to aid in the simulations of sunrise, sunset, clouds and moonlighting...after that, it depends on your husbandry.

Pretty much what I have experienced in my tanks.
Thanks for posting your findings. It's hard to find someone who can do the side by side comparisons like this.

 

[mhucasey]

Regardless of whats said on here, LED's can and do grow corals. Even my cheap Reefbreeders fixture grows them as well as any metal halide I have ever had did. And I have had a lot of metal halides! From Osram powerstars to Radiums to Hamiltons etc. etc.
You can rant and rave all you want. Lay your hand on your leds.Now, Lay your hand on your metal halides. The metal halides will burn the hell out of you..........DONE ON THE HEAT COMPARISON.
No bulbs to replace, money savings on your electric bill. In southern California its huge!!!
Then you want to talk flexibility? No comparison!! One thing I always hated about metal halides was the "SHOCK" to my corals when the halides kicked on! And its a shock. You can say all you want, its far from natural.
So if you cannot grow corals under leds, then LOOK FOR THE PROBLEM ELSEWHERE!
If you tank is less then 1 year old, its not even close to being stable and matured..............hint hint.....

Once again, please feel free to show some evidence of the "Reefbreeders Photon 32" growing coral like nobody's business. I've looked though your posting history and your Photobucket account. You jump on to thread after thread to sell the reef breeders fixture. No pictures of your tank. You even have given someone a hard time for selling theirs. We are not trying to pick on you by asking for a little evidence. This is one of the few pictures of yours that even has SPS in it:

Perhaps you could show us something more recent?

 

[BigCountry74]

 

[muttley101]

Anyone Thinking of Dumping LEDS and going back to Halides

So.

It's been about a year now, and if you look back to the beginning of this thread I was one of the fiercest proponents of LED's taking the place of Halide no problem. A long as you put the time in to create a mutli color array that covers all spectrums.

Well I was right and wrong. As you know I own a coral farm, with a few hundred variations of each type of coral, and these are my findings of each type of coral and each type of lighting.

All of my led light fixtures were made with top bin cree or the led group buy brand. Using controlled levels of 400,410,420,430,455,475,490,520,600,630,660, CW,WW,NW 3 watt leds controlled by stormx to attain replicated spectral plot of a radium 20k at a par of 200-350 for 8-10 hours per day.

1. Acropora.

- The glow and hue from smooth skin acros is unmatched under Ushio 6500k. You simply cannot achieve under leds what you can under these lights.
- Milleporas of all color varieties look the best under radium 20k
- Red planets and variations of this type do well and look great under MH and Leds.
- Other acros were spotty, but all saw the most growth and polyp extension under ushio 6500k. Coloration for all corals was best under radium 20k (except the smooth skins. what the ushio did to them was amazing)

2. Paly and Zoo

- They dont care

3. Stylo, seriatapora, pocillipora, hydnophora varieties, etc.

-Although some did "ok" under LED only...others would straight up die after a few months.
-None died under Halide.
-All of them did the best in growth, coloration, and health under LED/T5 mix in a spectrum shifted toward 490nm, but also supplemented with heavy purple as well.

4. Acans. Fine under any light. Best coloration under t5...heavily blue and purple lit with a strong green/red component.

5. Montiporas-- yeah they dont care either. Good under all lighting.

6. LPS- stay alive and grow under any light with a minimum par of 200...but see the most polyp extension and tissue expansion under halide.

7. Corallimorpharians- best physical appeaance and coloration under t5's, but grow and do fine under any light.


So yeah lots of variations...but for ease of use and maximum efficiency to just let the coral grow and maximize enjoyment...I definitely recommend a majority of the light come from Halide or T5, and if you want more pop, supplement with leds...

I think they are great to aid in the simulations of sunrise, sunset, clouds and moonlighting...after that, it depends on your husbandry.

Great explanation on this topic. Very informative... I have used Reeflux, XM's on icecaps in the past and currently using Radiums on M80's.

I find your information on Ushio's interesting as I do have many smooth corals. I never considered them as they are a little too yellow for my taste, but you can't beat the par and natural look.

I know Sanjay praised Ushio's at one time and I am now considering making the switch on my next replacement. A gradual change though as the put out more light. Thanks for the write up!

 

[LinkinReef]

What bulb do you guys recommend as supplement for a radium 20k? ATI True Actinic 03 or a Giesemann Pure Actinic?

 

[smatter]

Negative to the OP's question.

 

[power boat jim]

What bulb do you guys recommend as supplement for a radium 20k? ATI True Actinic 03 or a Giesemann Pure Actinic?

Im using Radion G3s and a Radium, if that helps.

 

[Jim.mer]

I'm switching from the Maxspect Razor back to my 400 MH DE Pendant. I need a new bulb but there's nothing that compares to MH in my opinion.

 

[BeanAnimal]

I do not agre with the assessment that we get whatever either. Somebody is giving manufacturing requirements.

There may be a few hold outs, but I think if you do some research you will find that what I said is true. The aquarium market is tiny to begin with and then MH portion of that market is only a fraction of the total, and shrinking every day.

There are few MH OEMs left and the cost to have something custom specified is extremely cost prohibitive. The same bulb may be rebranded by several vendors and the source of a particular bulb and its specifications may change as a vendor sources OEMs. like it or not, this is the reality for lamps, ballasts, pumps, etc. To that end, it is the reality for just about everything in the global marketplace from electronics sub-components to ball bearings.

 

[cambo123]

I am switching back to T5 from LED. My experience is with a reef breeders value fixture. Not the best but certainly not the worst (at least it is "full spectrum"). I had decent growth with LPS. Color was just ok with the whites/blues on. The pop with the blue was amazing. I loved the shimmer. Despite all of that I still never felt like the tank was totally onboard with the light. Its hard to explain or even put a finger on what it was, but the feeling was there.

I recently ripped the tank apart and started over with SPS. I purchased several frags from the LFS and several more from a frag swap. 100% of these frags were lit under halides or T5's. From that point forward the light became a challenge. I am getting (i think) good growth. I have frags that have reached the edge of the frag plugs, many curving over and encrusting the rocks in less than 4 weeks. The flow and parameter part is covered with a vortech and jaebo (or whatever it is called) pumps on random mode and BRS dosing pumps so really the only thing I am unsure on is the light.

I tried several different settings on the light. 90 optics and 120 optics. Higher intensity on the blue channel low on the white channel. Inevitably all corals lost there color...kinda. Let me explain.

Pink cap: This coral started as a brilliant pink immediately after being introduced to my tank. It was lit under a 250w MH. Since then it is still pink but the color is very runny. In other words, the pink is not consistent throughout the entire coral. Some parts are noticeable less vibrant than others. With the blues and whites on, it just looks washed out.

Green Slimmer: Similar situation. It started under a 250w MH. It started a brilliant green. Under my lighting it just isn't as brilliant. With the blues and whites on, the flesh between polyps looks noticeable yellow green as apposed to just green. The polyps have not changed there color. (FYI, this seems to be a trend, I never lose color in the polyps, just the flesh on the skeleton)

Bonzi: This came from a 250w MH with a light brown body and purple tips. The brown area has become very, very light brown, the tips are still purple but not nearly as brilliant. The polyps again are still a very vibrant green.

Red Milli: Again, 250w MH with a brilliant red. Now it is brownish red/ very washed out.

Green Planet (i think): Although it is almost a turquoise color. This guys is the only one that has not changed in any way. It has not lost color, not grown or receded. It has just not done anything.

Green Acrapora: Not sure what this guy is called but it almost looks like it has scales. It was one of the cooler corals but has since lost most of its green on the shaded side. What is startling is there is literally a "tan line" between the spots it is exposed to light and the parts that are shaded (color on the light side is noticeable better). This is likely a spread issue but I already have no optics on my lights so there is not much I can do.

The only other thing that could cause my less then stellar color is a food shortage, however I regularly feed my tank.

I just got a ATI sun power and will be installing very soon. Since I can actually take pictures again i will post some shots when the ATI first goes up and several weeks after.

I thought I would post a follow up to this as it has been a little under a year since I posted this. In the end, I got the impression from this thread and others that lighting was the smoking gun and making a switch from LED would solve my problems. The reality is it is much, MUCH, more complicated then that.

At this point I have now tried a whole slew of lighting combinations,
LED, T5, LED+T5, MH, MH+LED each over several months.

The best combination for color so far? ....it is hard to say although I feel that my radium MH/ reefbrite LED combo has performed the best, it is just not substantial and it could easily be attributed to the tank maturing over time.

From my experience over the last year this is what I can conclude about coral (namely SPS) color:

1. Pests like AEFW, redbugs, and monti eating nudis have a SUBSTANTIAL effect on coral color. I say this because when I was busy in the above post ranting on the quality of LED, I had ALL three of these pest in my tank without the slightest clew. I have successfully eradicated all but AEFW and will be taking the necessary steps in a tank upgrade coming soon to eradicate those as well. My point is, the color of the monti's dramatically improved once these were eradicated and my acros continue to experience highs and lows because of AEFW.

2. I have come to realize just how important water chemistry is and how difficult it is to sustain desired paramaters in a small tank full of coral. ALK swings for example seem to have a much more detrimental effect on coral color then any of my lighting! Likewise, AEFW will sometimes surge in population, causing a lower demand before I can even test for it, causing ALK to swing up etc.

3. Nutrients, oh my does this have a CRAZY effect on color. Unfortunately, do to my poor practices that have introduced those nasty critters above, I have also introduced just about every type of pest algae there is. Feeding heavily colors up the corals but also full algae to a level that I dislike.

4. Finally, I feel that spread has a huge impact on a lights performance. I realize now that even with a 250w pendant on a small tank that I have very shaded acros with very white bases on the other side. I feel that rock work plays an important role in this! I also wonder if a lot of LED issues can be attributed to undersizing the number of lights. In short, I feel that a lot of people will buy less LED's because of the price and end up with less LEDs at higher power. I feel that potentially, a higher number and a lower power will perform better (I will be experimenting with this on my next tank build.)

In conclusion, I feel I can safely say that MH has edged out on top. But it is not leaps and bounds. For this reason, my new setup will be LED lit for the main display with a independent quarantine/frag tank lit with MH. AEFW WILL BE DESTROYED!!!!!