Wazzel
New member
Pack 'em in! Then you can tell the wife "sorry, but if we don't give them a bigger tank these corals could die!"
Not so loud, the wife might hear.
Anyone Thinking of Dumping LEDS and going back to Halides
- Thread starter Goldcoastreefs
- Start date
Not so loud, the wife might hear.
BigCountry74
New member
here is some frag growth from a duncan frag (single head) and a fox coral (3 heads) i dropped in a tank only a few weeks ago. the duncan is already growing another head (budding towards the base). if the fox expands anymore (each head is about the size of a cell phone) I think it will tear itself haha. back when i ran my 135g, i tried the cheap LED boxes, they did not grow jack ****. this MH 14k phoenix, now it grows coral
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brad65ford
New member
Exactly one year of growth under radium 20k 250 watt. Switched to led and didn't get 1/4 of that growth in 2 years and no where near the color. I was going through a gallon of 2 part every 1.5 - 2 weeks. Starting over now with radium 20k again. Have over 40 sps frags on the frag rack ready and they are coloring up amazingly.
Thank you for sharing, i've been down both roads as well. I will also admit its so much trickier for some reason to dail in the LED since they are manipulable unlike MH which is set it and forget it and adjust timing and height of the fixture. May you please explain in more detail of what fixtures you switched to, how long you ran them for and also if you tried to match the par values etc... Thanks in advanced.
Brad
Reel North
New King of Quarantine
Sweet Jesus that's a great after shot. I hate LED
michaellee64
New member
I'd probably hate it as well if I didn't understand it. But with all the tanks I have it would take at least 10 250w MH fixtures.... Not an option. All of my tanks are lit by diy Led and are doing great.
brad65ford
New member
agree, there is plenty of proof that LEDs can give amazing results. But I do feel for the people with systems/themselves which didn't click well when trying to run led's. Myself included since it took a while to find the balance, they are not easy IMO since there are more variables and there is no instructions for how to run them also par values are not the same. IMO LED are more powerful then MH given power consumption.. well... as least at a give focus (focal point). But the subject of MH being better for coral growth and over all ease for someone wanting to have fast growth and no difficulties in setting up and tweaking . yes hands down MH wins this coming from an LED guy that has no plans to run a MH any more.
man this thread will go on for years lol
Alitoo_81
New member
Hi,
I have led lights but I cant figer out the correct settings. I dimm them down but the problem is that they are not that intense to my eyes. When I reis the intensity, corals strat to pale there colors. I have a par meter apogee but also they say that you cant read the correct par under led lights (dont know if this is true) and dont know how to use it. Its a sps frag tank with zetlights ZT6600 (has normal leds but the whites are chip form). I dont know if I did a wrong desition with my leds. Is no PE indicator that the corals are having to much light?
I am thinking of changing to t5. But I will give the leds some time to see. Some corals RTN with high intensity.
Any advice on the led intensity? and how to use the apogee with leds?
thanks and sorry for my bad English.
I have led lights but I cant figer out the correct settings. I dimm them down but the problem is that they are not that intense to my eyes. When I reis the intensity, corals strat to pale there colors. I have a par meter apogee but also they say that you cant read the correct par under led lights (dont know if this is true) and dont know how to use it. Its a sps frag tank with zetlights ZT6600 (has normal leds but the whites are chip form). I dont know if I did a wrong desition with my leds. Is no PE indicator that the corals are having to much light?
I am thinking of changing to t5. But I will give the leds some time to see. Some corals RTN with high intensity.
Any advice on the led intensity? and how to use the apogee with leds?
thanks and sorry for my bad English.
I would agree with that. Its so hard to know where to go with LEDs. I used an apogee par meter to get as close as I could to par with the MH. In fact even at 100% I couldnt get the par levels I was getting. So I figured Id start somewhere in the middle and work my way up and it promptly bleached everything. I dont think a par meter works when transitioning to a new light source. From led to led or mh to mh, yea thats great but I think its to relative. There is no doubt they are powerful. I dont doubt they will grow coral. But growing and thriving are different to me. I went from 3 - 250 watt Lumenarc mini reflectors running 250 watt radiums 20k on ice cap electronic ballasts. It was pretty blue and I know they were not running at peak par on those ballasts. I switched to 5 panels of reef breeder leds. Almost completely covered my water surface with leds. Thats 275 3 watt leds. 60 degree optics to get par on the bottom of a 30" tank.
A few observations:
1. Even at 100% the tank looked dark and purple. First thing my wife said when she walked in was, wow it looks so dark.
2. Definition was poor. Probably more to do with the spectrum than anything, but it looked too sterile.
3. Growth on underside of coral stopped and died. I had great light wrap with the halides, not with the leds.
4. Disco effect. Even with so many leds so spread out mounted pretty high off the water you could still see it.
5. Color faded. Probably some to do with spectrum just not showing true colors as well. But it just wasnt the same. Colors faded and looked washed out. Its so hard to describe in works, but the tank lost its pop.
6. I had to run them over 12 hours a day to get any growth.
I ran those fixtures for almost 2 years. I wanted to give them an honest chance. I had myself convinced I was saving more in electricity than I was. I finally said to myself that was enough. I was looking through photos of my tank and was totally stunned how far it had fallen from what it was. It had been a while since I looked at the pictures and couldnt believe it. It was then I decided I have this tank to enjoy, not to try experiments with, not to try to save a few bucks, not to impress people that I have the newest technology. I enjoyed it when it looked like that. Thats what I want. I promptly got 3 lumenarc mini pendants with glass shields, 250 watt radium 20ks and ran them correctly on luxcore 250-400 ballasts at the HQI setting. Amazed how much whiter it was. It was a huge adjustment visually. When they first lit up I stood back and with a heavy sigh said "thats it". Thats what I was missing. It looks like the ocean now. Its only been about a month, but corals like goniopora are opening again with amazing red colors. My only surviving SPS from that picture, yellow humulus, is as stunning as ever. I've gotten over 40 SPS frags in the past few weeks and all of them are even more colorful than when I received them. I get that beautiful shimmer again. My definition is back. Its like looking at my tank in HD again. Ive got a long road ahead to get back to its former TOTM glory, but it will get there.
Im not saying LEDs are useless. I still use royal blues to supplement the MH and to extend the lighting period with sunrise and sunset since I only have the main lights on for 8 hours. And Im not at all saying this is gospel. Many have LED and love them. Im happy for you and that it works for you. It didnt for me for more than one reason. I guess my sole recommendation and moral of the story is make you tank look the way that makes you happy!
tmc1313
Active member
^^+1
Thanks for saving me all of that typing. I 100% agree with everything you've said. My experience and thoughts are exactly what you have said. The only difference was that I was using a different led manufacturer. I'm currently back to halides (since January of this year), and couldn't be happier. Love everything about them. If only I had stuck with them throughout, I can only imagine what my reef would look like today. Halide user here, and not going back anytime soon.
Those are some perfect reminders - if you like MH stick with them. Nothing else is MH, just like nothing else is T5 and nothing else is LED, and people who love MH will miss it while people who are indifferent or don't like it will welcome the alternatives. There are plenty of fantastic and terrible tanks that run every lighting type, so just stick with makes you happy and it isn't worth trying to save money if you don't like the look - after all the cheapest way to save money is to not have a tank at all. I am lucky that I prefer almost everything about current LEDs over MH, but that is just me and in 15 years I will probably be posting the the thread that is called "Is anyone thinking of dumping ____ and going back to LEDs?".
Wazzel
New member
I agree. Usually the deciding factor is not any piece of kit, but the person running it.
d2mini
Premium Member
Not to argue, because I understand what you are saying and agree to a point, but while this can be true, in many cases it is not, when we are discussing this particular subject.
There are too many instances of people who have switched back and forth with the same results to ignore the outcome.
Answer me this.
Let's talk about some of the units that let you share graphs/light schedules.
Many of these like Radions for instance have been out for what... 4-5 years now?
You would think that by now, there would have been enough experimenting and sharing back and forth to narrow it down to a few good schedules where pretty much everybody could have success, or at least determine that if they were not successful, their lighting is not the issue. Similar to Radium MH bulbs. You know that if you have Radiums over your tank and you still have problems with SPS, something else is wrong.
Why is this?
And although there are some decent LED lit tanks out there, is there anyone who was a long time and happy TOTM worthy MH/T5 user that switched to LEDs and saw an improvement, or at least stayed at the same level of growth, color, etc? I don't think I have heard of anyone. If there is, we all need to learn the details and copy them. haha
www.everydayreef.com
sidewinder2180
New member
Well the problem is the lights keep changing every year. So what worked good on a Gen 2 won't be the same on a Gen 3. Plus all tanks are different! Different animal stock with different requirements. And lights at different hights. Tanks of different shapes, sizes, and depts,Not to argue, because I understand what you are saying and agree to a point, but while this can be true, in many cases it is not, when we are discussing this particular subject.
There are too many instances of people who have switched back and forth with the same results to ignore the outcome.
Answer me this.
Let's talk about some of the units that let you share graphs/light schedules.
Many of these like Radions for instance have been out for what... 4-5 years now?
You would think that by now, there would have been enough experimenting and sharing back and forth to narrow it down to a few good schedules where pretty much everybody could have success, or at least determine that if they were not successful, their lighting is not the issue. Similar to Radium MH bulbs. You know that if you have Radiums over your tank and you still have problems with SPS, something else is wrong.
Why is this?
And although there are some decent LED lit tanks out there, is there anyone who was a long time and happy TOTM worthy MH/T5 user that switched to LEDs and saw an improvement, or at least stayed at the same level of growth, color, etc? I don't think I have heard of anyone. If there is, we all need to learn the details and copy them. haha
www.everydayreef.com
I have seen you on here. And it seem you are just dead set against led and anyone who thinks different is wrong.
d2mini
Premium Member
None of that should matter.
Like I said, pretty much anyone can put a Radium MH over their tank and get good results.
If you don't, you need to look at something other than your lighting.
For different size tanks, MH gives you a few choices of wattage, the number of bulbs, and the style reflector. Not many variables and pretty easy to figure out what you need.
As far as the fixtures constantly changing, that doesn't matter either.
I should be able to find a graph for a Gen 1 Radion or Mitra that will give me excellent results. But I can't. Why?
Not at all.
If you really have seen me on here, you've seen my well documented results of using both long term and my experience with both.
But I also continue to watch because I do think there is a future in LED.
And you should also have seen me say that the biggest issue is not with the technology itself, but with the amount of light wrap and the amount of fixtures that are really needed vs what was originally though or touted by the manufacturers.
www.everydayreef.com
Not to argue, because I understand what you are saying and agree to a point, but while this can be true, in many cases it is not, when we are discussing this particular subject.
There are too many instances of people who have switched back and forth with the same results to ignore the outcome.
Answer me this.
Let's talk about some of the units that let you share graphs/light schedules.
Many of these like Radions for instance have been out for what... 4-5 years now?
You would think that by now, there would have been enough experimenting and sharing back and forth to narrow it down to a few good schedules where pretty much everybody could have success, or at least determine that if they were not successful, their lighting is not the issue. Similar to Radium MH bulbs. You know that if you have Radiums over your tank and you still have problems with SPS, something else is wrong.
Why is this?
And although there are some decent LED lit tanks out there, is there anyone who was a long time and happy TOTM worthy MH/T5 user that switched to LEDs and saw an improvement, or at least stayed at the same level of growth, color, etc? I don't think I have heard of anyone. If there is, we all need to learn the details and copy them. haha
www.everydayreef.com
I think there are several things here. One is thing that I will agree 100% is that hook up a radium MH and it's pretty plug and play for SPS. The coverage and lighting intensity is well researched and easy. LED manufactures have not done a great job with explaining coverage when it comes to large stony coral colonies and how many fixtures it really takes.
With MH you don't really have many choices - pick what wattage and pick from a few bulbs with the color temp you want and done. You can't dial down red 1% for example. People like having more control with LEDs and at the same time people hate having more control. I can't imagine there ever being a standard lighting program that is the "go to" since people love to fiddle with it trying to get something better. That level of control is something that hasn't been available to the hobby before. I don't really view that as a good thing or a bad thing, it's just different.
I honestly feel that this issue has become contentious enough that many people are not willing to share photos of their coral. It's not fun to have your tank picked to pieces and there are people out there that will criticize any LED lit coral shot. I really feel that if told the same photo was grown under MH the same people would love it. Heck it's not even pleasant to post if you disagree, someone will probably come and line by line tell me what is wrong with my post and how I don't know anything.
Yes many TOTM has switched back and they should! They grew amazing tanks for years or decades under MH and suddenly switched to LED and were not happy. Why bother to even try to fiddle with the lighting at that point, MH has worked for them, switch back. Many just didn't like the change. Others saw some huge problems - which isn't surprising with LED manufactures coverage guidelines. Coverage (shading) has been a learning curve, and sadly many poor experiences happened from it just like there have been from over-illumination and creating hot spots by stretching LED coverage too far.
But like everyone else this is just my opinion and what I have noticed. None of it is fact. Sure I ran MH a long time ago and my tank sucked, but that was because I was starting out. I am happy with LEDs and prefer them over MH. What is best? Whatever type makes you happy. Clearly many feel MH is superior to LEDs and some feel the opposite and there is nothing that will be posted that will make either camp flip around 100%.
Also it's good to keep in mind this conversation is really about SPS. SPS heavy have been the 'leet reef tank for a while, but lets not forget there are lots of great softy, LPS, clam and mixed reef where the self shading isn't a concern (as much) and it seems there are many happy LED users. Those tanks are just as nice as 100% SPS reefs if that is what the reefer likes.
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markalot
...
There are plenty of LED lit tanks with good looking SPS, but I don;t think that's the real issue.
http://reefkeeping.com/joomla/index.php/current-issue/article/153-tank-of-the-month
Lots of research and a LOT of fixtures. It could be argued color would be better under 20K radiums but that's subjective. Anyway, it's nowhere close to plug and play just like MH was not plug in play years ago and T5 had its own issues.
I think a lot of luck goes into it as well. It appears he chose lighting levels that happen to work.
http://reefkeeping.com/joomla/index.php/current-issue/article/153-tank-of-the-month
Lots of research and a LOT of fixtures. It could be argued color would be better under 20K radiums but that's subjective. Anyway, it's nowhere close to plug and play just like MH was not plug in play years ago and T5 had its own issues.
I think a lot of luck goes into it as well. It appears he chose lighting levels that happen to work.
Wazzel
New member
Not to argue, because I understand what you are saying and agree to a point, but while this can be true, in many cases it is not, when we are discussing this particular subject.
There are too many instances of people who have switched back and forth with the same results to ignore the outcome.
Answer me this.
Let's talk about some of the units that let you share graphs/light schedules.
Many of these like Radions for instance have been out for what... 4-5 years now?
You would think that by now, there would have been enough experimenting and sharing back and forth to narrow it down to a few good schedules where pretty much everybody could have success, or at least determine that if they were not successful, their lighting is not the issue. Similar to Radium MH bulbs. You know that if you have Radiums over your tank and you still have problems with SPS, something else is wrong.
Why is this?
And although there are some decent LED lit tanks out there, is there anyone who was a long time and happy TOTM worthy MH/T5 user that switched to LEDs and saw an improvement, or at least stayed at the same level of growth, color, etc? I don't think I have heard of anyone. If there is, we all need to learn the details and copy them. haha
www.everydayreef.com
If the kit was junk then no one would be have any success. We know some people with LED lit tanks are doing just fine. That is not a knock against anyone's choice in lighting, sometimes things just do not click.
Honestly I do not know. I feel the LED are just coming to the point where they are a legit alternative. The tech that was out 3-4 years ago did not impress me. If I would have set my tank up then it would have not been an LED tank.
Again IMO, the thing that MH and T-5 have that LED does not is uniformity across fixtures and accumulated tank run hours that have worked out the bugs. Since LED fixtures vary across manufactures it is hard to generate hobby wide tank run hours. Advice has to be fixture specific. TOTM's generally are mature tanks that are years old. I believe you are going to see more from scratch LED TOTM in the future. The new tanks just need to mature.
I am happy with my LED results and feel my tank is as good as any other one year old tank. If I did not feel this was a hostile crowd I would post pics here. It is not like I hide my tank, I have a tank thread where I keep pictures posted fairly regularly. Check it out if you like. FWIW my goal is not to rag on the other options, I think they are great alternatives. I had a successful MH/VHO tank for a few years.
power boat jim
Well-known member
That is exactly one of the reasons you dont see more LED lit tanks here. I know of 3 people who have very nice tanks powered by LED and wont even post their opinions here anymore let alone a tank picture.
mhucasey
Acros & wieners, oh my!
If you post your tank on a thread and its not top notch, ragging on it is not cool.
With the exception that if you state that your tank proves that something works, whether its lighting, filtration, supplements, etc., then a picture of your tank is a good way to bolster your argument, but respectful criticism can be applied.
The core posters of this thread are very discerning, and I think newer posters miss some of the detail about what this thread has become. The core isn't talking much about energy savings or bulb replacement costs, they are talking about achieving the ultimate best results in SPS corals. A tank that most people would find amazing or at least very good could still get observations from the true SPS junkies. It's like cooking for Gordon Ramsay...don't be surprised if he finds something to criticize...
With the exception that if you state that your tank proves that something works, whether its lighting, filtration, supplements, etc., then a picture of your tank is a good way to bolster your argument, but respectful criticism can be applied.
The core posters of this thread are very discerning, and I think newer posters miss some of the detail about what this thread has become. The core isn't talking much about energy savings or bulb replacement costs, they are talking about achieving the ultimate best results in SPS corals. A tank that most people would find amazing or at least very good could still get observations from the true SPS junkies. It's like cooking for Gordon Ramsay...don't be surprised if he finds something to criticize...
sidewinder2180
New member
Well it does matter if you understand leds. The led in the fixture it's self is are always changing, how much wattage is run to each led how it's made who made the led it all matters. And if MH was the end all be all then why do people supplement with T5HO shading or not enough actinic!? FYI I had shading problems with MH on a 36 in tank not enough light near the ends too! I'm getting way better coverage with 2 leds lights than MH . Also the problem with finding a setting that everyone agrees is the best is because with that kind of control nobody can agree. As in I think 40 across the board works great! The next guy will say no you have to run the red at 41 to get even better results the next guy says no 43 and on. You don't have that control with MH so you don't have the argument about it! It's all subjective. FYI I have seen where a person posted a pic of there led lit tank. You said it looked good but would look better and be healthier under MH. You can't prove that. I will believe scientific research and studies. This is all Opinions there is nothing based on facts and real scientific research here.
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