Anyone try Marine Environment dual phase formula salt mix???

I use M.E. I observe my animals and allow them to tell me what salt they like. Since I purchase all of my salt from Premium Aquatics (RC vendor), I save a lot of money by doing a local pickup. If I didn't think it was worth the extra money for this particular salt, I wouldn't buy it.

Just about every one drives a car, but many people have never heard of a Bugatti Veyron. I really don't think it means anything with regards to the quality or performance.

You don't have to have a nice personality to make a good product. The CEO of Porsche may be a total a-hole; this has nothing to do with their cars.

I won't defend the S-15 report as I am not chemistry savvy enough to even care. Go back to my first statement and let your animals do the "talking".

On a personal note, I think Michael Del Prete is a straight up guy. Sure, he is VERY rough around the edges and sometimes he has the people skills of a cobra. I chuckle every time somebody finds it strange that the CEO of a company has a "Company man" approach. Say what you want, but the man knows his stuff and he knows it well.

I have no intentions about going on and on about this person or that person. Lets lay it to rest before things get ugly. The original question was about M.E. salt. My simple advice is this: Try it. If your animals don't like it, they will let you know. It's not like you can't go back to something else.
 
Nothing ever gets ugly in the Chemistry Forum. We make sure of that. :)

I always say what you just said. If it looks good, it is good.

If the salt works for you, great. Every tank has different consumption rates.

ME may be a fine salt......... for some......... maybe not others.

I'll say it again. There are no bad salt mixes. Only bad salt mixes for a particular tank.

Subsequently, every salt mix presently on the market has a place in someones tank.

And, for the record, THERE IS NO PERFECT SALT MIX.

:)
 
Hello fellow marine aquarium keepers, RC moderators and members.

Reef Central has long been a place for information to be shared. For the most part this information has proven to be of value. However this thread deals with me personally and much of the information provided is grossly inaccurate.

It is generally agreed that the burden of proof is on the accuser, not the accused.

I am Michael Del Prete the CEO of Aqua Craft Products.

I wear two hats. a) I am first and foremost an aquarist. b) I am a businessman. Please take this position into consideration with my post.

Allow me to reply to the following misinformation.

1) The S-15 Report was commissioned and paid for by Global Scientific Publications. This was an entity that was established as a funding organization for the specific purpose of learning about various marine salts.

This information can be found on our web site.

If someone has information or evidence that proves different, provide it now.

2) We are the first people to: breed, raise, advertise and sell tank raised clownfish in a 100% artificial medium. This was done between 1971-1974. This includes all first foods.

We have been producing marine salts since 1971. Currently we hold about 30%-35% of the world marine salt market. We were the worlds first to place an advert. in Pets Supplies & Marketing buying guide in a specially created category for tank raised marine fish. This was in 1973.

Mr. Martin Moe Jr. was doing the same thing about the same time. He might be several months ahead of us. However, he was using natural sea water and/or a mix of NSW and a marine salt. His fish were not advertised prior to our marketing effort.

IMO, Mr. Moe Jr. can easily be called the Grand Daddy of breeding marine fish. This resulting from his pioneering work with breeding a variety of clownfish, gobies and marine angelfish.

If anyone has any information or evidence that proves different, provide is now.

3) I do not have and never had a brother-in-law. I do not have presently or had any family members or relations working at Anresco, Inc. in any capacity. I do not believe any marine salt manufacturer is in any way associated with Anresco lab.

If anyone has information or evidence that proves different, please provide it now.

4) All salt samples tested for the S-15 Report were received by Anresco Lab. If anyone has information or evidence that I personally, or anyone at Aqua Craft Products (then or now) or any other marine salt manufacturer touched any samples received by Anresco Lab. prior to testing that proves different, provide it now.

5) Anresco Lab. opened factory sealed and untampered samples of marine salts and hydrated them to various concentrations. The done so potential back ground interference would be reduced or negated when testing some of the finite trace ions.

All testing procedure, equipment, etc. is detailed on our web site.

When samples were mixed (at Anresco Lab.) split samples were sent to the University of Missouri for testing in their facility.

This is a common practice that helps to insure accurate results are attained in the final evaluation of each sample tested.

6) The University of Missouri has a department called the Environmental Trace Substances Research Center, Dept. of Environmental Science & Testing. This information was provided by Anresco Lab. This information is found on the original and complete report. All this information is clearly posted on our web site.

If anyone has information or evidence that proves different, provide it now.

7) The 13045 PROCESS is a registered trade mark granted by the US Patent office. This describes a manufacturing process for marine salts and other types of chemistry.

8) What is claimed on the S-15 Report shows a date. The information (testing of marine salts) has continued from 1980 to present.

It is enlightening to discover which brands of salts have declined in integrity as well as lowered their net weight. E.g. 15 pounds of balanced marine salt chemistry is required to hydrate 50 US gallons of working solution at a SG of 1.024-1.025. Brands that weigh 13.75-14.5 pounds cannot produce the required amount of solution at this specific gravity. More is more. Less is less.

It is unrealistic to believe that any manufacturer of marine salts, or anything else for that matter would pay to advertise the limitations of their brand.

However, it would be beneficial for a brand that scored high in independent tests to use that documentation to promote their brand.

9) A bar graph is one part of the S-15 Report. The complete report, along with side by side comparisons of various samples of marine salts (next to NSW as a standard) can be found on our web site.

10) Mg in NSW at 35 ppt. salinity can range from 1290 ppm. to 1350 ppt. This depends on which book you read. It is generally agreed that Mg in NSW at 35 ppt. is about 1325-1350 ppm.

11) I have never been banned from RF, RS or FF, as I have never registered in my name or any other name on those sites. I have not been banned from RAG. In fact I am somewhat active on that site.

Which salt mix is the best? One can choose their marine salts within the three categories.

a) The brand that fits into their budget.

b) The brand that satisfies their level of marine aquarium keeping and needs.

c) The brand that meets or exceeds their requirements and expectations.


The internet has great ability to provide a platform for knowledgeable and informed individuals so beneficial information can be shared. Unfortunately the smallest amount of misinformation posted by someone with a hidden agenda creates confusion.

What is curious is why one individual continually posts inaccurately about me, ACP and the report on RC as well as other sites?

Thank you RC moderators and members for allowing me to post my reply.

Cheers. Michael Del Prete
 
MDP,

Clearly, Boomer has made a few incorrect statements with regards to the S-15 report; whether or not he decides to clarify his original statements is his own business, not mine. I would like to ask you one final question that can be answered simply yes or no: Have you ever had ANY affiliation or interests with Global Scientific Publications?

I am a user of your salt, but I must say that I am not the S-15 report's #1 fan. I work with medical equipment including laboratory machinery and would like to point out a few observations of my own. This is not meant to be an attack on you or your company so don't take it that way.

There have been many advances in the machinery used to perform an assay. The mass spectrometers that were used 12 years ago are probably not used today (except in schools maybe.) The technology has become so much more advanced and precise over the past few years. I am very confident that if it were possible to assay the very same samples that were done many years ago, the results would be a bit different.

What is also not addressed is the notion that you and probably every other salt maker may have altered their recipes in order to upgrade their products over the past 12 years.
 
No. I was unaware of Global Scientific Publications prior to and during the test they commissioned and paid for.

And, I still do not have a brother in-law. The US Patent office still recogonizes the 13045 PROCESS as a registered trade mark. I maintain my respect for Martin Moe Jr. as a pioneer marine fish breeder that used NSW and/or a mix of NSW and ASW.

Without question just about every brand of marine salts has changed one thing or another over the years. This is a result of some components no longer being made available to reducing the net weight of their packages.

What is of importance is that some brands have continually improved their formulations and/or manufacturing process.
 
I was googling the registered trademark 13045 PROCESS and came up with this:

http://www.findownersearch.com/brand/817238/

[tongue-in-cheek]But then I went back to the original link and under the "Owner Details" link I found an other interesting scientific trademark registered to DEL PRETE, MICHAEL J. [/tongue-in-cheek]

You'll have to look it up for yourself: :cool:
http://www.findownersearch.com/brand/817238/
Be sure to read the brand name at the top as well as the Description and Category below.

And I always thought it meant the skimmer needed to be emptied :D

And some people seemed to think Michael didn't have a sense of humor. I'm sure a case of this stuff could bring new life to a dull reef club meeting. ;)


I tried to post links to the US Patent Office search on these trademarks but they expire. You can look them up yourself from this search page. http://tess2.uspto.gov/bin/gate.exe?f=searchss&state=muehvu.1.1
 
Good job searching trade marks.

I am surprised you did not post all the registered trade marks held.

Since Wiff O' is not an aquarium related item, I guess it is OK for me to use it in a post.

Sense of humor... you bet.
 
Too bad the S-15 report didn't include Wiff O' Cr_p

But, taking you up on your comment:

I am surprised you did not post all the registered trade marks held.

I think this is most of them:
ECOSEA
SEA THE DIFFERENCE
13045 PROCESS
AQUA CRAFT PRODUCTS
WIFF O' CRAP ;)
MARINE AQUARIST
MARINE ENVIRONMENT
BIO·SEA
MEERSALTZ
CORAL MARINE
REEF AQUARIUM GUIDE
HUMATIC
 
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MDP,

Perhaps you could help me dig up some info. Out of curiosity I'd like to see what other research Global Scientific Publications has done or published. However, despite being proficient at internet searches and having access to a large University Library, I have been unable to find any references to Global Scientific Publications or the S-15 report outside of your companies ad copy. Would you by chance have any links or names of publications that they have done that can be found either via the internet or a library full of scientific publications?
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10532894#post10532894 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by billsreef
MDP,

Perhaps you could help me dig up some info. Out of curiosity I'd like to see what other research Global Scientific Publications has done or published. However, despite being proficient at internet searches and having access to a large University Library, I have been unable to find any references to Global Scientific Publications or the S-15 report outside of your companies ad copy. Would you by chance have any links or names of publications that they have done that can be found either via the internet or a library full of scientific publications?

I ran into the same problem with Global Scientific Publications.

You can find numerous references to the S-15 report on various saltwater and reef sites but they all seem to point back to the report as part of the AquaCraft's advertising.
 
Bill:

GSP was established specificaly for securing funding, comissioning and publishing the salt tests.

At the time of completion, it was their decision not to publish in hard copy form the original independent information generated.

We were then contacted and asked if ACP was interested in purchasing the results.

To the best of my knowledge, no other marine salt manufacturer was contacted to see if they were interested in purchasing this meaningful information.

This for two possible reasons:

1) Their brands did not test well.

2) They would purchase the information then hide/conceal/bury it from the general public, interested aquarists, the aquarium industry as well as the public aquarium / aqua culture sector.

After meetings with our lawyers and two representives from GSP it was decieded that this information would be of benefit to ACP.

After this information was secured, and agreements were made, the information was then termed the S-15 Report(tm).

After additional meetings with our lawyers, we were advised to pursue an aggressive advertising program that showed the virtues of some brands of marine salts vs. the short comings of others.

This program included creating an easy to understand bar graph. This was and is printed in English, German, Chinese and Japanese.

All information, word for word from the original documents was offered on our web site. At that time, all information as well as photos of various brands of salts were made available on our site.

About 45 days after the bar graph was first published in TFH and MFM our corporate lawyer was contacted in writting by a legal representitive of Aquarium Systems.

After three or four months of written communication between one of our lawyers and their legal council, we received no furthur comminciation from them.

About 120 days after the first publication of the bar graph, I received a phone call from someone claiming to be a lawyer for ESU.

After this one idiotic call, no one else has ever contacted us directly or any of our lawyers regarding the results we purchased from GSP.

I make this information known for two reasons:

1) No one has ever asked us where we got the information from.

a) There have been endless and baseless posts on the internet about who actually commissioned and paid for the tests.

b) It is believed that these numerous and ongoing posts that create nothing but confusion were and are generated by those with a hidden agenda regarding profiteering from the sales of marine salts.

c) As well as those that simply did not like being informed that what they have been sold was less than optimal.

d) By a few that were and are threatned by facing the realities of factual information vs. what what they profess (without the benefit from their actual costly lab. testing) from their arm-chair chemist position.

2) Hopefully this will put to rest any more concerns.

If you or anyone else has any legitmate questions, please present them.

Thank you. Michael Del Prete
 
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<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10533174#post10533174 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by MDPinUSA
Bill:

GSP was established specificaly for securing funding, comissioning and publishing the salt tests.

Very curious indeed. So they were established solely for this one set of tests for which your company ended up being the sole customer. I'm sure with this you can understand why so many people question that test as being anything other than marketing.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10533174#post10533174 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by MDPinUSA
...

However there have been endless and baseless posts on the internet about who actually commissioned and paid for the tests.

It is believed that these numerous and ongoing baseless posts that create nothing but confusion are/were generated by those with a hidden agenda regarding profiteering from the sales of marine salts. As well as those that simply did not like being informed that what they have been sold was less than optimal.

2) Hopefully this will put to rest any more concerns.

If you or anyone else has any legitmate questions, please present them.

Thank you. Michael Del Prete

The S-15 report has been the object of much speculation and discussion. And, as you've previously pointed out, it is very likely that every salt manufacturer has modified their formulations since the report was publish.

I appreciate your responding to questions.

I believe that it is always better to talk with the people involved than to talk about them.

I do have a couple other questions that might be on people's minds. I hope they don't sound like an interrogation. I'm trying to write them short and to the point and sometimes that comes across that way.

With the confusion and speculation over the funding, given that you note that "GSP was established specificaly for securing funding, comissioning and publishing the salt tests," what do you know about the source of funding that GSP raised?

Where was GSP incorporated and/or conducted business?

Are you confirming that you and your businesses had no involvement with GSP until they offered you the completed report?

Thanks,
Paul
 
As I understood GSP's position, they planned to fund various research projects and put them into hard print format.

This first project was created by a group of international aquarium professionals that had questions and concerns why there was and is a high mortality of captive marine organisms. And why there is a disporportionate rate of shops that have such a poor reputation (or go bankrupt) and the great number of hobbyists that drop out of marine aquarium keeping.

When the test was completed it was realized that the internet was playing a larger and larger part of desimating information.

It was determined that the costs of the test and planned printing in hard copy would not be recoved vs. this information being taken from their efforts and put all over the internet.

It was their decision to approach someone that could benefit from their efforts and afford them the opportunity to recover as much of their financial investment as possible.

I.e. They approached a company that could benefit from their effort, pay them for their costs, promote vs. hide/conceal the results and continue with the ongoing concerns and endless questions from many that do not posses the ability to comprehend the importance of the test results and would ultimately ask endless questions.

E.g. They wanted out. They wanted to paid as much as possible for their current costs. They understood all too well there would be a boat load of questions... such as... Where can I find this info... I don't understand this or that... why was this test commissioned... who is GSP.... etc... etc.

Since we first published this information, we have been plagued with numerous phone call, fax's endless emails from individuals asking these questions.

The vast majority of the questions asked were answered to completion on our web site, long before the questions were asked.

Questions like yours are worth answering.
 
Paul:

Most salt manufacturers have modified their formulations. This for reasons I posted earlier.

IMO, none for the betterment of their brands, their customers or the captive exotic live stock that is exposed and/or in intimate contact with this essential complex chemical medium.

Let me ask you... Do you or anyone else really believe that some salt makers have actually improved their brands? This in the face of rampant inflation, increased costs of raw materials, increased competition ... dramataically increased costs for delivery transportation, etc. ... And all brands that did not score well.. have similar or even discounted prices vs. 10 years ago?

E.g. The cost of housing, food, travel, postage, etc. has steadly increased. Some brands of marine salts sell at discounted rates at those of years past. -- How do you think this is possible?

After ommitting or reducing various major, minor and trace elements then electing to employ lesser and lesser purity ingredients... the latest trend for some marine salts is to reduce the net weight in their packages.

As posted earlier there is a minimum amount of weight that must be present in a balanced formlula to hydrate the advertised gallons at the desired salinity of water being required/purchased.

As indicated in a previous post, we started outside as well as internal testing of marine salts starting in 1980. I can assure you, the majority of established brands as well as brands introduced after 2000 are IMO far from what we consider optimal.

There never was any confusion as to who funded the report. It was clearly stated on our site from day 01.

Speculation, misinformation and a general smoke screen arose by those that had a vested interest in promoting brands that did not test well.

This created confusion amoung the uninformed. -- This was and is fueled by a few that refuse to come to grips with the reality that there is always something to learn from some one you don't know yet.

I was not aware of GSP prior to their approaching ACP to bail them out of what was an obvious financial loser.

I have no idea about where they secured the necessary funding for their efforts.

GSP was represented as an off shore group.

Since this is the chemistry forum, it appears to be an ideal location for providing information regarding the actual manufacture of marine salts.

However, I am not currently an RC sponsor. Thus I do not know how professional level, factual information will be received by the powers that be?

I have some time to exchange with adult, meaningful and positive individuals or professionals interested essential and most useful information that is unknown to the vast majority of marine aquarium keepers.

From what I have witnessed on most aquarium oriented web sites, many believe that information offered by commercially successful professionals is unwanted.

This manifests itself in the form of hostile, aggressive and outright crazy posts. -- E.g. I still never had nor do I currently have a brother in-law!

Since someone indicated I have a sense of humor, (guility) I will admit, most comments made by the brother in-law poster still has us rockin' in our socks.

Us being my goodself, our legal staff, production crew, office personel and all that have been supporting us for decades. Only on the faceless, nameless internet can key board rambo's attempt to get away with this level of foolishness.

I have shown professionalism and respect for RC, its moderators and many members by not using any brand names of marine salts.

Your comment "I believe that it is always better to talk with the people involved than to talk about them.", rewards me for my time on RC.

Paul and Bill. I appreciate the quality of your questions.

Cheers. MDP
 
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MDP,

If you don't mind, I would like to ask you about some of the scoring of the report.

Who came up with the scoring and who determined how much each category would weigh (in points)? The reason I ask is because when I read something like: "Low in silicates: Be low in silicates. High amounts of silicates can increase the growth of diatoms or brown algae." Being that the report was put out circa 1998 (or so), this seems like something that a salt manufacturer would know, but something a scientist may take years to figure out.

I can understand that having a basic composition to NSW would weigh a lot; you don't have to know much about salt to know that you would want something similar to sea water. It just seems like the rest of it is intricate info that only someone with a deep understanding of marine salt chemistry would be aware of. I could be COMPLETELY off base with this as well (I've been known to make an error or two in my day!!) The folks who wrote the report may have studied marine chemistry for many years and be very well aware of the effects of heavy metals in salt water, etc... The only reason I ask is because (by your own words above) this report was commissioned to figure out why so many marine animals died in captivity.

It is not my intention to put you on the spot or have you explain yourself to me; heck I already use your products and think you are an untapped resource for the info hungry folks like myself. I think you are all too aware that most of us are bombarded with claims of miracle products and are growing sick and tired of outright lies that are only dwarfed by American politicians. I have a healthy dose of skepticism with everything reef and government related.


Edit: On a side note, I know exactly what you mean with regards to reducing net weight of packaging. I remember when I could purchase a 1lb or a 1 1/4 lb bag of Oreo's. Now, they are both 2 ounces lighter!! Same thing with coffee cans.
 
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The scoring found on our web site is not part of the report. It is a result of information from the report.

The scoring idea was created by our business advisors. It was then sent to our lawyer for review.

The rational was to provide a simple visual for those uninterested or incapable of reading through the complete document. Or those with the time to read, but suffered from the inability to comprehend or digest the information provided.

May I digress for a moment? -- Thank you. -- Just as the bar graph was created for those that need a quick visual, so was the scoring chart.

Two years after the bar graph was in 8 1/2" x 11" print form, I had a laminated 20" x 24" poster made.

We were exhibiting at a 3 day dealer level trade event. This event ran from Friday to Sunday. A zit faced store employee highly suited to clean puddles of brine shrimp off the store counter, at his after school LFS job approached me on the frist day.

His initial words to me were ... "So, what makes this product so great?" -- I showed him the bar graph in poster size. He was silent. He then asked me for free samples. I said, come back on Monday. -- Digression complete.

A list of factors regarding what makes a good marine salt was generated. Each point of concern and its value was put in order of its importance.

RE: Silicates. It is no secret that many PhD's have great education, but little understanding. E.g. Information found in a book resulting from a lab. experiement does not necessarily relate to the long term keeping of closed marine displays.

E.g. When simple marine systems are established with silica sand, they produce brown algae. Vs like systems side by side using dolomote as a substate.

The addition of Na Si in a marine salt formulation, the use of silica/silicate based sands or the use of chemisty that is contaminated with silicates will produce diatom algae.

Unfortuniately, many hobbists use such items and believe brown algae is normal and/or part of aquarium problems. It is not.

This information was included in the scoring by a qualified aquarist. Not a lawyer or scientist that has no working knowledge of salt water aquariums. This information is most accurate.

If I may... allow me to take this a step further. No one benefits from information posted by a researcher that read two books, then writes one book. Worse yet, they become online aqua guru's with blind followers. This creates the quintessential situation of the blind leading the blind. E.g. We are all having the same problems. We all doing the same things.

Just as information from an ex hobbyist, with no actual hands on experience with many of todays products, approaches or techniques can offer little more than gibberish.

It is resonable to believe animals that have evolved and came from NSW, be placed in a captive medium that resembles... NSW.

RE: Heavy metals. It was a surprise for me to learn that some brands of marine salts contained unbelievable levels of lead, nickle and aluminum. This found in brands that claimed to be... "identical to"... "indistuinguable to" NSW. Those and many other claims made by other manufacturers proved to be false.

The reasoning of GSP was to start at the point of collection, to holding, to transporation, to importing, to dealer care, to consumer husbandry.

At that time, groups were forming to provide information and supplies to collectors and deal with airlines. After that, it was about how the animals were handled after they arrived at the importers facility.

It is from this point interest that was of concern. Since the majority of importers and virtually all hobbyists use a salt mix... they started at this point. -- Please no posts like... I use NSW. A few do. Most not.

In total reality, we are all bombared with claims of this or that. E.g. The best for less... Sounds great, but in our heart of hearts, we know the best does not cost less. This applies to just about everything I can think of.

Advertising is a way of life for all civilized cultures. What did Bob Dylan sing about? "Advertising makes you think you can do what has never been done before".

We all want to believe we can get the best for the lowest cost. Just look at all those nice folks that bought CheapO brand tires that came apart .... All those that got a discount on tooth paste, only to learn it contained anti-freeze. (please no posts asking, what is wrong with anti-freeze) ... all those kind pet owners that spent a bundle on vet bills, after they fed their pets with food that was contaminated with plastic or some toxic synthetic.... All this happened within the last few months.

RE: Oreo's. Their package now weighs less. Do they indicate the number of Oreo's contained?"

With underweight marine salts, the weight is shown (by law), but the gallonage is embellished. -- E.g. One package says: net wt. 13.75 pounds. Another brand says 14 pounds. Another brand says 14.5 pounds. All say they will make 50 gallons.

OK, they all can make 50 gallons, but at what specific gravity?

None inform the buyer they must purchase another package and use part of it, to make a salt water working solution at the desired SG or salinity.

The brands that have a 14.5 pound 50 gal size mix also have a 42 pound 150 gallon mix. What happened to the other 1.5 pounds? I mean, 3 each at 14.5 pounds = 43.5 pounds. Their combined (bulk bag) just lost 1.5 pounds.

It is suspected that manufactures that do this are gambling the end user does not mix the entire bulk batch. Therefore the unsuspecting buyer never realizes he was short changed with basic weight.

Thank you for your post.
 
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<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10534096#post10534096 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by MDPinUSA
However, I am not currently an RC sponsor. Thus I do not know how professional level, factual information will be received by the powers that be?

The commercial parts of the <a href=http://reefcentral.com/agreement.php target=_blank>User Agreement</a> govern what is acceptable. Basically, you can answer a direct question, but don't diverge into things that could be conceived as marketing such getting into package weights of other brands and such, especially since no one asked ;)

BTW probably about 80% of your last post could be looked at as subtle or no so subtle advertising.
 
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