anyone using TYREE's "TRIzonal" (cryptic) filtration method ???

[K' Family Reef]

he has some beautiful limited edition corals
available on his website (reeffarmers.com)... corals housed in systems employing his "trizonal" methods

and has written a book about using cryptic filtration
(CMAT Volume 1 Cryptic Sponge and Sea Squirt Filtration)... using sponges etc is supposed to eliminate the need for SKIMMING...


have been seeing more and more people getting interested in cryptic fuges bringing it up in threads/builds etc... and i really like the idea of using NATURAL filtration methods as much as possible!


is anyone employing these methods w/ any success?
(and finding they can go skimmerless???)

advice/recoms/insights ???



here is an old RC thread w/ TYREE participating in the discussion about this methods/book

Cryptic Sponge & Sea Squirt Filtration Methodology

I just finished reading Steve Tyree's book on this subject and would like to get some other people's impressions of the system he proposes. First let me say that I think he may have "rushed" the book out without substantial data to support any of his conclusions. You can see the progression of...

forums.reefcentral.com

regards

 

[Wrench]

Tagging along for this one!


I have not and don't plan to go to his extent but I am working on propagating sponges in a calm area of my sump for this purpose.

 

[seapug]

It's a really great system if you have a large enough tank to set up that way. He wrote an article in the last issue of Coral magazine about it.

 

[greenbean36191]

i really like the idea of using NATURAL filtration methods as much as possible!

Sponges and tunicates are no more natural filters than corals (actually they aren't even that good). Their function isn't at all analogous to a skimmer either.

 

[K' Family Reef]

greenbean36191
so your thoughts on using this method of filtration ???

regards

 

[LobsterOfJustice]

Here's my opinion -

I understand how a refugium works - nutrients are bound up in biomass which is harvested and removed from the system. How exactly do these sponge filters work without harvest? Where does all this stuff go? If your not removing anything from the tank, isnt it still in there? Now if these sponges are growing and you harvest them, then I understand. But just because sponges are "filter-feeders," I dont think that makes them good filters for a tank.

 

[K' Family Reef]

...

 

[greenbean36191]

But just because sponges are "filter-feeders," I dont think that makes them good filters for a tank.

Exactly. Tyree's book has very little basis in real science. The basis for the method is ignorance of sponge and tunicate ecology. Yes, sponges and tunicates do tend to be more abundant in nature than in most tanks, but that doesn't mean that our tanks are suffering from their absence. These animals are competitors with corals for space and more importantly, food. Adding them to tanks doesn't fill any novel role.

Sponges and tunicates feed primarily on bacteria that coats POM and floating free in the water. This is also one of the major food sources of most corals, especially "SPS" (their only real food source in most tanks). The "cryptic" organism are providing nothing new there. As with fish or any other animal, the waste from that food gets turned into inorganic nitrogen (ammonia and eventually nitrate). Sponges and tunicates dump that ammonia right back into the water and they do it at rates comparable to or even greater than fish. Because of their zooxanthellae, corals cycle that nitrogen rather than sending it all out into the water. Much of it is retained and in some cases they can actually take in more nitrogen than they produce. Ironically, many sponges house symbiotic cyanobacteria that use much of the sponge's waste (though not at much as zooxanthellae), but these cyano are photosynthetic, so they're being culled in favor of the asymbiotic species by keeping them in a dark environment.

Another thing that annoys me is that people don't realize how toxic these animals really are. Sponges and tunicates, being sessile have to rely almost entirely on chemical defense to defend their space and protect themselves from predators. They make some of the nastiest chemicals in the sea. Chemicals from sponges are the basis for some anti-fouling paints and cell destroying-cancer drugs, because they're so effective at preventing the growth of other organisms, including corals. Many tunicates produce similar toxic compounds and most accumulate the heavy metal vanadium, which is also toxic. This is particularly worrying with tunicates because many species, particularly the fast growing colonial species, have programmed colony death meaning that large parts of the colony will suddenly and quickly die, regardless of the overall health of the colony. Anything accumulated in that part of the colony then goes back into the water.

 

[gcarroll]

Say what you want about his methods, the bottom line is that they get the job done. Problem is that the filtration method is really geared at a low maintenance and low operating cost coral farming system. With the high price ofg electricity in CA, Steve found a system that relied on natural filtration rather than mechanical filtration. The reduces his electrical costs on his coral farming system since the skimmers run 24/7 and they would have to be very large skimmers due to his water volume.

Due to his tanks having a very low bioload the system works. With several systems totaling close to 2000+ gallons, I'd be shocked to finde more than 5 fish. To be honest, I have seen no more than 2 in my many visits. I can't even remember seeing crabs or snails either but there is tons of coraline algae growing.

 

[greenbean36191]

With several systems totaling close to 2000+ gallons, I'd be shocked to finde more than 5 fish. To be honest, I have seen no more than 2 in my many visits.

That would be the key. Many other hobbyists and coral farmers run skimmerless systems for the same reason. The common thread is that they have low fish stocking. Less nutrient input necessitates less export. There's no magic there.

Whether his tanks look great or not has no bearing on whether the claims he makes about the utility of these animals are supported by the science on the subject. He could also choose to run an eco-aqualizer and his systems would no doubt look just as spectacular, but that would prove nothing about the utility of the unit or the veracity of the manufacturers claims either.

I'd put a lot of money on a bet that he could discontinue the use of his "cryptic" refugium and see no negative effects on the system.

I've posed the same question many times, but have yet to get a satisfactory, scientifically based answer- What are these organisms removing that isn't already being removed in a skimmerless system and by what mechanism are they doing it?

 

[K' Family Reef]

greenbean36191
thanks for your insights and info about sponges/tunicates +++

i certainly dont know enough about this subject
to debate any of your points... but being that TYREE has written books and (more importantly!) has a successful functioning 'ecosystem' applying these/his methods... which makes me (perhaps) more of a 'believer' then a 'non' believer... atleast it (might) show that there is (some) merit to his techniques in real world application (whatever the reasons scientific or otherwise behind/supporting his ideas).




gcarroll
thanks for your input... so you have visited his coral farms... no fish/low bioload is not much fun for many hobbiests!... are there images of his tanks showing his operation in action... zonal areas etc etc?

 

[K' Family Reef]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13370627#post13370627 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by greenbean36191
That would be the key. Many other hobbyists and coral farmers run skimmerless systems for the same reason. The common thread is that they have low fish stocking. Less nutrient input necessitates less export. There's no magic there.

Whether his tanks look great or not has no bearing on whether the claims he makes about the utility of these animals are supported by the science on the subject. He could also choose to run an eco-aqualizer and his systems would no doubt look just as spectacular, but that would prove nothing about the utility of the unit or the veracity of the manufacturers claims either.

I'd put a lot of money on a bet that he could discontinue the use of his "cryptic" refugium and see no negative effects on the system.

I've posed the same question many times, but have yet to get a satisfactory, scientifically based answer- What are these organisms removing that isn't already being removed in a skimmerless system and by what mechanism are they doing it?

you must have posted same time i posted mine

very true about the water volume/low nutrients
easy to make claims about any filtering technique when these factors are taken into consideration...

he does make the same claims
regarding his other smaller systems that are employing the same techniques for filtration... dont know if i read it on his website or in the thread that was posted earlier (the first posting in this thread)... but he mentions using these cryptic methods in several (fully contained) 180 gal systems... think a 30 gal 400 gal, 75gal etc etc (iow mini systems not the larger commercial operations)... w/ the same success rate/claims...

regards

 

[stevedola]

so because he is TYREE and wrote a book you believe his word...you know OJ simpson wrote a book too not sure Id believe his word.

 

[K' Family Reef]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13371225#post13371225 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by stevedola
so because he is TYREE and wrote a book you believe his word...you know OJ simpson wrote a book too not sure Id believe his word.

but being that TYREE has written books and (more importantly!) has a successful functioning 'ecosystem' applying these/his methods

i think you may have left out the
"AND (MORE IMPORTANTLY)" aspect of what i said... meaning he has written a book (((((BUT ALSO/AND)))))) has verifiable results w/ his systems/corals etc etc...

do you have anything [INTELLIGENT] to add to the conversation/subject being discussed ???

 

[gcarroll]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13370627#post13370627 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by greenbean36191
I'd put a lot of money on a bet that he could discontinue the use of his "cryptic" refugium and see no negative effects on the system.

Maybe so, but many of us reefers employ methods that may or may not work. They are all just pieces to the puzzle for our particular system. There is no defined right or wrong way to run a reef. Tri-Zonal Filtration is not for everybody. It may not be for anybody. It's just one man sharing his experiences and his theory/opinioin of reefkeeping. If there was a single defined right way to run a reef then there would be no need to discuss.

 

[stevedola]

just because he has successful tanks it does not mean cryptic zone filtration works efficiently. it just seemed to me that you were giving credit to a method solely based on a coral growers name sake. I want to see hard evidence before I take it as gospel.
in your own words:
"i certainly dont know enough about this subject
to debate any of your points... but being that TYREE has written books and (more importantly!) has a successful functioning 'ecosystem' applying these/his methods... which makes me (perhaps) more of a 'believer' then a 'non' believer... atleast it (might) show that there is (some) merit to his techniques in real world application (whatever the reasons scientific or otherwise behind/supporting his ideas)."

 

[JohnL]

I'm researching this method. Would love to hear more thoughts and experiences.

 

[Subsea]

Five years ago, I converted a 20yr EcoSystem mud/macro refugium into cryptic mud refugium. Cryptic sponges are the third leg of natural filtration along with bacteria & algae. Ask @Timfish about cryptic sponges.

 

[Timfish]

Here's a data bomb. We'll start with a video then links to papers.

BActeria and Sponges

Element cycling on tropical coral reefs.
This is Jasper de Geoij's ground breaking research on reef sponges showing some sponges are processing labile DOC (aka carbon dosing) 1000X faster than the bacterioplankton in the water column. (The introduction is in Dutch but the content is in English.)

https://www.rug.nl/research/portal/files/14555035/13completethesis.pdf

Sponge symbionts and the marine P cycle

https://www.pnas.org/content/112/14/4191

Phosphorus sequestration in the form of polyphosphate by microbial symbionts in marine sponges

https://www.pnas.org/content/112/14/4381

Differential recycling of coral and algal dissolved organic matter via the sponge loop.
Sponges treat DOC from algae differently than DOC from corals

https://besjournals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/1365-2435.12758

A Vicious Circle? Altered Carbon and Nutrient Cycling May Explain the Low Resilience of Caribbean Coral Reefs

A Vicious Circle? Altered Carbon and Nutrient Cycling May Explain the Low Resilience of Caribbean Coral Reefs

Coral reefs are economically important ecosystems that have suffered unprecedented losses of corals in the recent past. Why have Caribbean reefs in particu

academic.oup.com

Surviving in a Marine Desert The Sponge Loop Retains Resources Within Coral Reefs
Dissolved organic carbon and nitrogen are quickly processed by sponges and released back into the reef food web in hours as carbon and nitrogen rich detritus.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/279061640_2013_deGoeij_Science_Sponge_loop

Natural Diet of Coral-Excavating Sponges Consists Mainly of Dissolved Organic Carbon (DOC)

Natural Diet of Coral-Excavating Sponges Consists Mainly of Dissolved Organic Carbon (DOC) - PMC

Coral-excavating sponges are the most important bioeroders on Caribbean reefs and increase in abundance throughout the region. This increase is commonly attributed to a concomitant increase in food availability due to eutrophication and pollution. ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

The Role of Marine Sponges in Carbon and Nitrogen Cycles of COral Reefs and Nearshore Environments.

The role of marine sponges in carbon and nitrogen cycles of coral reef and nearshore environments - ProQuest

Explore millions of resources from scholarly journals, books, newspapers, videos and more, on the ProQuest Platform.

search.proquest.com

 

[JohnL]

Thank you @Timfish you always provide such great information!