Apex v Profilux

[acesq]

Wow, this thread is starting to sound like a hit piece against Apex. Disturbing to say the least. Reminds me of the PC vs Mac stuff that is spouted all over the web. Both work, both are reliable, both are robust and capable of programming. Both have excellent customer service. Are they identical? No, but for the average reefer, they both will do the job. To each his/her own taste, but it's bad form to bad mouth Apex based on such anectotal evidence.

I'll add my experience to the mix: I have had an Apex running my tank for 2 years controlling 20 separately programmed outlets, ph probe, 4 Tunzes (random and synchronous flow), float switch, three dosing pumps, heater, lights, chiller, fans, etc. Flawlessly. It sends alarms, is web accessible and has an interface that I can understand and navigate with ease. Could I do the same with a Profilux? Absolutely. In fact I was about to pull the trigger on a used one when I found an Apex deal I couldn't pass up. Would I be just as happy two years later? Without a doubt, Profilux appears to make a great product. But to suggest Apex makes a bad or unreliable product is simply false.

By the way, I feel the same about PC and Mac. I use both. Both work great.

 

[Augster]

I personally have no experience with either product and just looking at what's best for me; not knocking either as "bad" nor questioning long-term reliability of any specific product (the fact that ProfiLux offers an optical level sensor as an option adds a reliability aspect that I'm looking for). The Apex is definitely one of the most popular controllers out there and that is a good thing!

As a software developer, I certainly consider the programming capabilities of a potential controller on the top of my list; most others simply use the "canned" features or need simple programming functions so either controllers would be suitable.

Anyways, since I'm still trying to extensively research all possible capabilities of each, I just came across a potential shortcoming with the ProfiLux:

Can the ProfiLux monitor non-ProfiLux contact-switch sensors, such as generic float switches? It seems this is not possible and I must use only the types of sensors that GHL has made available for the ProfiLux... :headwally:


The three built-in level sensor inputs on the main controller will be tasked to monitor sump water levels but I need the controller to also monitor water levels in a pair of storage tanks as part of my automated water change/top off system and it seems the only way to do so would be to add additional expansion boxes to the main controller since there are no expansion cards offering level sensor monitoring; these expansion boxes are quite expensive and only adds two level sensor inputs each (via splitter). :worried:

EDIT: I think I found the answer to my question via the PL-ADIN expansion card...

 

[AQD_ottawa]

I try and keep out of these debates as much as possible but this is a direct question that needs our attention -

Yes you can control third party switches with the ProfiLux, this has been a long standing feature, furthermore the expansion made for this purpose allows you to do more than just use third party float switches, it allows you to do all kinds of add on controls with its analogue as well as digital command mode.

In regards to the 3 (which can be expanded to 7 or more) level inputs, you now have access to dedicated leak sensors and flow sensors, the possibilities with the flow sensors are amazing, imagine if your main return pump failed and you had a redundancy set up! The flow sensor would not only switch off the power to the bad pump but then the reducndancy would turn on and also send you an email to tell you what its just done also!

One of the reasons GHL use dedicated parts such as level sensors is then they have control over the quality of the components, there is no point having a state of the art system only to have a cheap float sensor fail you letting the whole system down. However GHL acknowledge some people want to have their own hand in what they put on the system so a long time ago developed PLM-ADIN, which not only allows control of digital inputs but also analogue, I think this feature alone is unique to GHL.

There are various level sensor expansion cards now available

PLM-4 Level - this gives you an extra 4 level inputs
PLM-Redox/pH 2 level - this gives you an extra pH port redox port and two further level ports

All this can fit neatly inside the main unit.

As we do not like answering questions on the open forum as it can be miss construded please feel free to come across to the GHL sponsored forum where we can answer anything freely.

 

[Augster]

There are various level sensor expansion cards now available

PLM-4 Level - this gives you an extra 4 level inputs

Since I have a question on the above, I will post it here (any further questions specific to the ProfiLux I will now carry forward to that support forum):

The PLM-4LEVEL is not listed under "Cards available in North America" as shown on the GLNA website. Is this an oversight or is this truly not available for us here in the US?

 

[AQD_ottawa]

They release next month in Europe and August into the USA, we tend to get things 6 weeks behind Europe.

I will have the site update in the next week.

 

[pencil3]

@Tim:

Does an Apex AquaController allow you to build complex programming algorithms?

My research of both systems indicates the ProfiLux has a much more robust instruction set and conditional handling over the Apex's rather simple conditional instruction handling. For me, this is critical for developing an automated water change and top-off system. I had originally intended for a gravity fed top-off and manual water changes and the Apex would fit my needs perfectly, but after seeing an automated water change and salinity level by Shardinio on YouTube, I've come to the conclusion that I will not be able to build an algorithm with Apex that could take into account various sensor readings and conditions to prevent certain water level/equipment failure situations.

This is the reason I'm leaning towards the P3 at this time. And the optical level sensors...

I looked up that user on YouTube and it seems like a pretty straight forward auto water change to me, I can't see why the Apex would have a issue controlling that. I have mine set up to take out x gallons over the course of the day (continuous water change). The water change vat holds 2 weeks worth of water for the water exchange. When the vat is empty the Apex shuts down the water change pumps and has the RO system turn on and routes the water to the salt vat (the apex routes water between 3 vats from the ro system, depending on which vat is low). When it's full it shuts the RO system down (the apex will also shut down the RO system if TDS goes above 0 and sends me a email. It'll also shut it down if RO water is not flowing through the plumbing route to the specific vat) and then turns on the valves that add dry salt to the water from the hopper. It adds a specific volume of salt to the vat and verifies salinity via the conductivity probe. If salinity is not within the programmed range I have it set to it will add a little move volume, if after that it is still outside the range I get a email. If everything is ok the water exchange comes back up after a few hours of mixing (mixing pumps then turn off, circulation pump back on, UV light in the salt vat comes back on, water is heated or cooled to match the display tank) and so on. Salinity is also monitored/controlled on the display, so if something should go out of range the water change pumps (and ATO if certain conditions are present) will shut down and a email sent out.

The Apex controls lighting (along with dimming T5s), heating, cooling, vortec pumps along with return/chiller/UV/reactor pumps, skimmer (should the cup try to overflow), skimmer neck cleaner, skimmer cup wash down pumps, fish feeders, and a batch NO3/PO4 reactor (runs off -orp and then matches the ph of the display tank to the reactor PH to verify that the water has been fully cycled through during the batch operation along with running the dosing pumps that add the supplements). The same apex controls a multi tank fish quarantine system along with a invertebrate quarantine system. I have not had or wanted to do something and been not able to because of the "simple conditional instruction handling" of the Apex. Oh, I use a mix of float, flow, pressure, optical, and dry contact switches too.

 

[Augster]

I looked up that user on YouTube and it seems like a pretty straight forward auto water change to me, I can’t see why the Apex would have a issue controlling that... I have not had or wanted to do something and been not able to because of the ”simple conditional instruction handling” of the Apex.

Here is the programmatic logic I want to implement on my water change (I apologize if this is too technical as I am a software developer):

ON SCHEDULED_WATER_CHANGE
....IF NEW_SALT_WATER_TANK IS >= MINIMUM_NSW_LEVEL
........AND SALINITY_NEW_SALT_WATER >= 1.020
........AND SALIINITY_NEW_SALT_WATER <= 1.028
........AND SKIMMER_SUMP_WATER_LEVEL >= SKIMMER_MINIMUM_SUMP_LEVEL
....THEN
........DRAIN SUMP
............UNTIL SKIMMER_MINIMUM_SUMP_LEVEL
............OR RUN_TIME >= MAX_DRAIN_TIME
........FILL SUMP WITH NEW_SALT_WATER
............UNTIL SKIMMER_OPERATING_SUMP_LEVEL
............OR RUN_TIME >= MAX_FILL_TIME
....ELSE
........SEND ALERT
....END IF
END SCHEDULED_WATER_CHANGE

And here is how I want my top off logic:

IF RETURN_SUMP_LEVEL < OPERATING_RETURN_SUMP_LEVEL
....THEN
........LOOP
............IF SUMP_SALINITY > 1.024
................THEN
....................IF FRESH_WATER_LEVEL >= MINIMUM_FW_LEVEL
....................THEN
........................RUN FRESH_WATER_DOSER FOR X MINUTES
............................OR RETURN_SUMP_LEVEL >= OPERATING_RETURN_SUMP_LEVEL
....................ELSE
........................SEND ALERT
........................STOP TOP OFF
....................END IF
................ELSE IF NEW_SALT_WATER_LEVEL >= MINIMUM_NSW_LEVEL
........................AND SALINITY_NEW_SALT_WATER >= 1.020
........................AND SALIINITY_NEW_SALT_WATER <= 1.028
....................THEN
........................RUN NEW_SALT_WATER_DOSER FOR X MINUTES
............................OR RETURN_SUMP_LEVEL >= OPERATING_RETURN_SUMP_LEVEL
....................ELSE
........................SEND ALERT
........................STOP TOP OFF
....................END IF
................END IF
............END IF
....UNTIL RETURN_SUMP_LEVEL >= OPERATING_RETURN_SUMP_LEVEL
END TOP_OFF

I really don't know if either device can implement this level of sophistication and have to rely on what I can glean from their respective manuals and user experiences.

Oh, I use a mix of float, flow, pressure, optical, and dry contact switches too.

What brand/model of optical level sensor do you use with Apex?

 

[AQD_ottawa]

Here is the user manual for Programmable logic control for GHL. The manual covers from plus II range upwards into P3

http://support.aquariumcomputer.com/downloads/Programmable logic.pdf

 

[Outdoorfishes]

http://forum.aquariumcomputer.com/showthread.php?3-How-To-Automatic-water-change

Some ideas for u

 

[pencil3]

Nothing from the work flow that I see stands out as not being possible. Just as a example I have my ATO set that it comes on when the level drops in the sump, it can stay in the on position for a maximum of 3 minutes and then it turns off (it will turn off if the water level is brought back up or in 3 minutes, which ever happens first). The ATO can not be triggered on again for 15 minutes. ATO will not come on/will turn off if salinity is below 34.0 in the main display tank or if the main return pumps are off, if water in the sump has triggered a "high water" condition or a "critical low water" condition (along with other pumps to keep them from running dry), or for when the NO3/PO4 reactor is cycling water back into the system. The ATO is also set up that it pulls RO water from an intermediate holding vat as opposed to one of the main RO holding vats. That way if something should ever happen only a few gallons can be pumped in instead of hundreds of gallons. The pump that supplies the intermediate vat from the main RO holding vats is a slower pump then the ATO pump that feeds the tank from the intermediate RO vat.

I use a mix from Predyne, Dwyer, Madison, it depends on what I am doing and the size/specs that I need.

Here is the programmatic logic I want to implement on my water change (I apologize if this is too technical as I am a software developer):

ON SCHEDULED_WATER_CHANGE
....IF NEW_SALT_WATER_TANK IS >= MINIMUM_NSW_LEVEL
........AND SALINITY_NEW_SALT_WATER >= 1.020
........AND SALIINITY_NEW_SALT_WATER <= 1.028
........AND SKIMMER_SUMP_WATER_LEVEL >= SKIMMER_MINIMUM_SUMP_LEVEL
....THEN
........DRAIN SUMP
............UNTIL SKIMMER_MINIMUM_SUMP_LEVEL
............OR RUN_TIME >= MAX_DRAIN_TIME
........FILL SUMP WITH NEW_SALT_WATER
............UNTIL SKIMMER_OPERATING_SUMP_LEVEL
............OR RUN_TIME >= MAX_FILL_TIME
....ELSE
........SEND ALERT
....END IF
END SCHEDULED_WATER_CHANGE

And here is how I want my top off logic:

IF RETURN_SUMP_LEVEL < OPERATING_RETURN_SUMP_LEVEL
....THEN
........LOOP
............IF SUMP_SALINITY > 1.024
................THEN
....................IF FRESH_WATER_LEVEL >= MINIMUM_FW_LEVEL
....................THEN
........................RUN FRESH_WATER_DOSER FOR X MINUTES
............................OR RETURN_SUMP_LEVEL >= OPERATING_RETURN_SUMP_LEVEL
....................ELSE
........................SEND ALERT
........................STOP TOP OFF
....................END IF
................ELSE IF NEW_SALT_WATER_LEVEL >= MINIMUM_NSW_LEVEL
........................AND SALINITY_NEW_SALT_WATER >= 1.020
........................AND SALIINITY_NEW_SALT_WATER <= 1.028
....................THEN
........................RUN NEW_SALT_WATER_DOSER FOR X MINUTES
............................OR RETURN_SUMP_LEVEL >= OPERATING_RETURN_SUMP_LEVEL
....................ELSE
........................SEND ALERT
........................STOP TOP OFF
....................END IF
................END IF
............END IF
....UNTIL RETURN_SUMP_LEVEL >= OPERATING_RETURN_SUMP_LEVEL
END TOP_OFF

I really don't know if either device can implement this level of sophistication and have to rely on what I can glean from their respective manuals and user experiences.



What brand/model of optical level sensor do you use with Apex?

 

[Augster]

I use a mix from Predyne, Dwyer, Madison, it depends on what I am doing and the size/specs that I need.

I researched all three and Dwyer and Madison appear to explicitly state their sensors are "outside mounts" (drill hole through tank and affix probe externally); literature on the Predyne doesn't state either way.

Looking for something that can be submerged in the water being monitored to allow for height adjustability; which one have you used in that application?

Also, they all appear to be 3-wire sensors requiring a power source so I'm assuming they would need an external transformer in order to use them with the Apex, correct? Also, the IO Breakout Box would be needed to connect these and any other typical switches (or DIY with a DIN8 cable), yes?

The Gems (Predyne) is relatively inexpensive (~$80) while the Dwyer and Madison's are ~$130 to ~$250 respectively according to my quick price lookups!

 

[yongpanda]

I agree with the above statement 100%. I did a lot of comparisons before buying my P3ex and it turned out to be similar in price in the end.

 

[pencil3]

I don't think I have come across a submersible off the shelf, use some heat shrink to seal it or use a piece of vinyl tubing to slip over it to keep the water out if you want to mount it in a way where it could get wet. Madison has some that are on the inexpensive side, around $30 or so last I checked. You need a power supply, 1 power supply can run all of your optical switches. Yes, you need a BOB or need to make one.

I researched all three and Dwyer and Madison appear to explicitly state their sensors are "outside mounts" (drill hole through tank and affix probe externally); literature on the Predyne doesn't state either way.

Looking for something that can be submerged in the water being monitored to allow for height adjustability; which one have you used in that application?

Also, they all appear to be 3-wire sensors requiring a power source so I'm assuming they would need an external transformer in order to use them with the Apex, correct? Also, the IO Breakout Box would be needed to connect these and any other typical switches (or DIY with a DIN8 cable), yes?

The Gems (Predyne) is relatively inexpensive (~$80) while the Dwyer and Madison's are ~$130 to ~$250 respectively according to my quick price lookups!

 

[tonyf]

It's kind of funny how for a long time the biggest complaint against GHL ProfiLux was "Price". Now with the new price structure from GHL (huge price cuts over the last couple of years) it's in line with other some-what comparable controllers. when you factor in you do not need all that third party stuff because GHL provides it all built in and by the looks of it at a much cheaper cost. What's even better is that with the thoroughness of GHL's design and architecture you just plug in the optical sensor or the flow sensor and program it in the software, there is no fiddling about with transformers are other stuff.

All of a sudden the GHL ProfiLux is not that expensive at all. It's in line price wise and makes expandability so much easier than comparable systems.

Almost Price reduction is probably mostly a consequence of the 'collapse' of the Euro ... the only third party thing that one needs is a gaming adaptor for wifi ... the WLAN card was not all that good and using an adaptor is much simpler and quicker, not even sure if GHL still does the WLAN.

I'm a P3eX user ... it has been a reliable and very good controller but has a steep learning curve to get the most out of it. Basic functioning is pretty straight forward ... plug it in and let it go. IT knowledge is a big advantage.

Nice thing with GHL is the upgrades to the firmware and ProfiluxControl software ... but you need to pay close attention when doing upgrades or you can stuff things up a bit. Be careful in not getting caught out with settings as these are often thrown out of whack when upgrading ... if you upgrade the FW always do a corresponding PLC upgrade as well as they have a habit of slipping in little improvements and not sayin' much about it.

The PLC software could do with some realtime data recording and graphing features rather than the clunky data downloading and basic graphing that it has ... I like to see what is going on without having to keep downloading data and the graphing date axis need better incremental identification.

Otherwise a plenty good package

 

[Augster]

I'm a P3eX user ... it has been a reliable and very good controller but has a steep learning curve to get the most out of it. Basic functioning is pretty straight forward ... plug it in and let it go. IT knowledge is a big advantage.

Can you elaborate what exactly is difficult and requires a steep learning curve on the P3? I've read reports that the ProfiLux is generally much easier to program than an Apex. So far, I came across a fantastic "unofficial" New User Guide for the Apex that some motivated Apex user put together and it provides exactly what I need to see how to program the Apex for various common tasks and for all modules and probes. This guide has actually revealed to me that the Apex isn't as hard to program (for me that is) than I thought, and it seems to have some very nice features such as Oscillate as well as handling hysteresis situations ("in the context of the Apex controller is a condition where the outlet state rapidly changes between ON and OFF based on the event you are testing") via MIN TIME and DEFER commands (not sure if the P3 offers such handling). I haven't found anything remotely similar so far for the ProfiLux, I'm afraid, and the "official" manual isn't as detailed with clear examples that allows me to truly grasp it's programmability. :uhoh2:

The PLC software could do with some realtime data recording and graphing features rather than the clunky data downloading and basic graphing that it has ... I like to see what is going on without having to keep downloading data and the graphing date axis need better incremental identification.

Unfortunately, the latest versions of the PLC software have neglected the DEMO MODE functionality to the point it's absolutely useless as it no longer truly allows a prospective customer to access any feature in simulation mode (the DEMO MODE, when checked, USED TO then allow a user to simulate a connection to a "virtual" ProfiLux thereby allowing access to all features and programming) :sad1:

 

[AQD_ottawa]

ProfiLux has had built in Hysterisis in its software since 2001 This is a very standard feature for the contoller amongst other very much more complex.

Here is a direct link to the how to guides
http://profiluxsupport.com/showthread.php?25-How-To-Guide-Thread-Library

This was built by me personally to fill in the gaps of the manual as the manual is for direct programming only not for PC programming as the software chages so rapidly the manual would always be in re-write.

The demo mode is limited due to features being copied, GHL decided to limit the access for this reason a few years back.

Maybe drop us a pm for further discussion as I think some things are leading you off track here and in no way should this thread become a sale pitch.

 

[AQD_ottawa]