Aquarium reform group [Saia] emerges in Europe

[cortez marine]

Just when you thought it was safe to set up a new aquarium....
Once again, we are guided by a "cut and paste, google it up" group of experts who want aquarists to behave "responsibly".

At first glance it sounds reasonable....as do many things.
I can see their roster of "movers and shakers" come from the earlier failed groups of "experts" .
It would appear that with new leadership, they are trying to mine gold once again in the business of reform.


http://www.saia-online.eu/

Read it and let the games begin!
Steve

 

[Beaun]

http://www.saia-online.eu/images/stories/uploads/List of unsuitable and unsustainable Species.pdf

I agree with some of the fish on the list for large scale collection (nurse sharks...), but many of them are perfectly fine for home aquariums. Some of them, Genicanthus bellus for example, are listed as unsuitable because it is in 24-100m of water...

Achilles tang, only with massive UV?

All centropyge because they might be caught using cyanide.

 

[billsreef]

Got to love that list, some of the fish on it actually are quite easy and do quite well in captivity, such as Volitan Lionfish and Asfur Angels. It seems a list put together by people with little, if any, actual hands on knowledge

 

[cortez marine]

a list put together by people with little, if any, actual hands on knowledge

And thats why hes known as Bingo-Bill.

The thing about internet derived knowledge is that some of it is so outdated and things change...and the old links don't automatically update themselves with reference to new developments.
Imagine basing sociological research on cell phone usage in America in 2005 instead of today.

What our new, would be leaders would have us believe is that their cheap, easy, convenient, painless sit on your butt in front of a computer based methods are viable.
The need for reform may be confused with uninvolved, unrealistic, unintelligent proposals.

Some of these folks are very competent in their fields but as we found up in the case of US based aquarium reform groups, knowledge in one endeavor does neccessarliy translate well to knowledge in another.

These old MAC followers and employees are convinced that there is gold in them thar hills if only they re-configure the pitch and the promotion. Popularity in such an endeavor can theoretically net a multi million dollar grant.

I think they could do better and should involve themselves with people of greater aquarium trade experience, hand on knowledge and current perspectives. They are limited by their own vision and Northern Europe is cold half the year.

Steve

 

[thebanker]

These old MAC followers and employees are convinced that there is gold in them thar hills if only they re-configure the pitch and the promotion. Popularity in such an endeavor can theoretically net a multi million dollar grant.

We've got a bingo!

 

[49.35 North]

Just when you thought it was safe to set up a new aquarium....
Once again, we are guided by a "cut and paste, google it up" group of experts who want aquarists to behave "responsibly".

At first glance it sounds reasonable....as do many things.
I can see their roster of "movers and shakers" come from the earlier failed groups of "experts" .
It would appear that with new leadership, they are trying to mine gold once again in the business of reform.


http://www.saia-online.eu/

Read it and let the games begin!
Steve

Gee Steve, is it possible you're being just a bit unfair to these guys?

They're actually asking for input from reefers and say explicitly that "the issue of unsuitable species is discussed in nearly every hobbyist bulletin board. And that is a good progress this hobby made. Regulate the trade yourself - that is what SAIA is all about." The English is a little fractured but it's clear that they're trying to draw on the actual experience of actual reef keepers. Maybe you should give them the benefit of your experience and knowledge.

As for "the earlier failed groups of 'experts'", I note that WetWebMedia is a "supporter and partner". I thought Bob Fenner was a respected figure in the hobby. They also list among their supporters and sponsors an Indonesian NGO that has been training collectors in Bali, Java, Sumatra and Sulawesi. I thought you were in favour of training the locals? Then there's pro-vision reef, an Aussie aquarium supply industry association. I don't know anything about them but they're sponsored by the Australian Great Barrier Reef Park Authority, which gives them at least a bit of credibility in my eyes. I don't think you can accuse an Australian national park of trying to "mine gold" by cutting and pasting.

 

[cortez marine]

tokenism vs real reform

tokenism vs real reform

The problem for me is that I know the people....
as does Fenner and few were more critical of the MAC charade then he.

Cherrypicking the least of the reform issues [and the safest] is a strategy in self survival... not a plan for the reform of the trade.
The unsuitable species list is a red herring and a distant concern compared to the poisoning and crowbarring of the reefs to collect tropicals.
The city people who always come up with these promotions do it for themselves and feed off the trade by exaggerating issues that they have found simplest to address.

The Indonesian NGO is fibbin and not training collectors.
The fig leaf of false training and non training covers for the cyanide trade.
Selling the illusion of reform when it doesn't take place reduces alarm and lets the cyanide trade continue unfettered.
Lying to you and fooling you is not nice.

They are soliciting input from hobbyists because they are not sure what to do or why. Really?
They already know what they are planning and giving the illusion of participation is a step up from the top-down, we know whats best for you...MAC approach.

Unsuitable...no unsaleable species is more like a lot of it.

Obligate coral feeders is an issue that is wished to be large for the convenience of the saviour.
Problem is, most of the trade has been on to it for a long time and have disdained these silly, unpopular fishes.
Most wholesalers stopped bringing in trifascialis, trifasciatus, triangulums, oxymonocanthus and brevis exallis etc. a long time ago.

The aquarium literature is full of this stuff.
Discovering old issues and proposing new solutions to them is old, tired and dated.

Habitat destruction by crowbars and poison is the real issue.
This is what earns us enemies. This is what no one defends.
Sustainabilty is enabled thru healthy habitat and thats just not as simple to take on as the 7th edition of the USL.
1. Nurse sharks grow big.
2. Ornatissumus don't eat flakes.
3. Eels may bite...
4. Bicolor angels may have been caught with cyanide so don't buy them.... huh? including the ones from New Guinea, Tonga, Fiji, Vanuatu etc.?
...and so on...


Must we remain beginners forever people?

Must we be led by even greener beginners doing google searches and book reports for their information?

Its late...time is short and the trades habitat destruction issues are avoided and unmet by cowardly greens choosing simple, safe issues to get by on.

No, I am not being hard enough on them but someone should.

 

[49.35 North]

The problem for me is that I know the people....
as does Fenner and few were more critical of the MAC charade then he.

The city people who always come up with these promotions do it for themselves and feed off the trade by exaggerating issues that they have found simplest to address.

The Indonesian NGO is fibbin and not training collectors.

They are soliciting input from hobbyists because they are not sure what to do or why. Really?
They already know what they are planning and giving the illusion of participation is a step up from the top-down, we know whats best for you...MAC approach.

Must we be led by even greener beginners doing google searches and book reports for their information?

Its late...time is short and the trades habitat destruction issues are avoided and unmet by cowardly greens choosing simple, safe issues to get by on.

No, I am not being hard enough on them but someone should.

I know you didn't and don't like MAC, but what does that have to do with SAIA? Mr Fenner may have been critical of MAC, but he isn't being critical of SAIA - unless they're using his name without permission.

"City people" may be the root of many of the world's ills, but one of SAIA's sponsors is an industry association that represents 90 per cent of the Australian aquarium catch. In what way are they "city people"? I think most of the trade is in northern Queensland, not Sydney.

I'm curious to know how you can say definitively that the Indonesian ngo is fibbing about its training activities. I'm not trying to be snippy in asking this - I'm genuinely interested in knowing.

Thanks for the link, by the way. I'm not European and I don't live there, so I don't think I'll join, but it's always nice to know what like-minded people are up to.

 

[cortez marine]

Please understand that in Europe the need for response to government regulation is an even larger concern then here.
A response...any response will be accepted and held up to the authorities as an attempt to comply.
People will rally around this flag for defense as they did with MAC for 10 years and nothing else was considered for funding or support.
If the USL for example becomes defined as the main issue of concern, it may well be .
It will be offered as the "substance" instead of real time reform in real fishing villages where all the fish come from.

If SAIA will adress genuine issues and solve problems in the field...great and we should all support it.

But, the early indications are that they are re-hashing and cut and pasting MACs past attempt to micro-manage every aspect of the 100's of policies and procedures involved in the collection, export, import, holding, wholesaling and retailing of each and every fish .

Reform ...by mission statement ;by checklist, bookeeping and paperwork may placate naive, far away people but my concern has always been the net change in the sea, on the reefs and in the villages.
The worth of a policy is in the implementation and not in the easily written mission statement and whereas clauses which so many seem to fall for.
The website promo and the mission statement are the first 1% of the story.
Fooling people by words is a really well worn game.
Please do not discourage those of us who keep our eye on the ball.

Now...by contrast.....the 500 hard working Filipino net caught collectors who were actually trained on site....and who decompress their fish and handle them better were never trained by foreign NGOs.
These guys branched out to Belize, Tonga, Egypt, Saudi, Vanuatu, the Marshalls,, Solomons etc. and were converted to sustainable methods in their own villages.
They pre-date the take-over of the reform movement by the eco-orgs so now in vogue.


Steve

 

[cortez marine]

independant thinking

independant thinking

Being a coral reef patriot does not mean you must support every "green party" out there.
Just this morning on the NOAA coral reef website was a plea from Steve Mussman to think more independantly.
See below;

What will it take to get you to throw off your concerns about
political correctness and institutionalized censorship and come
to understand that there are actually issues at stake that require
a more courageous and selfless level of participation?

I know that considering your diversified backgrounds there are bound
to be differences of opinion, but I fail to understand how so many well
educated individuals credentialed in the marine sciences can just
sit by and fiddle while Rome burns.
(Or while marine ecosystems approach their demise.)

The bottom line is, in my opinion, that science holds the keys to our
planet?s future and perhaps the future of mankind.
(Forgive the melodramatic emphasis.)
If any special interests are allowed to control the information
necessary for a thorough debate, then the die has surely been cast.

Somehow all of you must be encouraged to speak your minds and to do so somewhere
in a way that emphatically enlightens the public on the issues of the day.

This can be done without fear of litigation, but not without fortitude.

There should be enough impetus in just considering what is at stake.

Regards,
Steve Mussman

 

[GreshamH]

Just because some one is listed as a "sponsor" or "Supporter" on a website doesn't make it the truth. Rather then trusting them, why not ask Mr Fenner what he feels about it, or any of the other supporters and sponsors

 

[49.35 North]

Being a coral reef patriot does not mean you must support every "green party" out there.
Just this morning on the NOAA coral reef website was a plea from Steve Mussman to think more independantly.
See below;

OK, I'm baffled. I don't see anything in Mr Mussman's message that could remotely be considered as critical of an industry association that is trying to help environmentally concerned reefers by compiling a list of unsuitable and unsustainable livestock - and that is actively soliciting the input of hobbyists (as well as the industry) in compiling the list.

What am I missing?

 

[cortez marine]

"What am I missing?"


The point.


Musmans call for fresh thinking runs counter to the herd mentality of pop aquarium eco-issues.

Case in point;
The USL. I mean the issue has been around so long it has its own anacronym.
The so called Unsuitable species list is a lightweight cover for not doing the real work of driving sustainable practice in the field.
It is a redundant notion that pretends to drive better choices thru "consumer education."

America and Europe have a small % of consumers who might pay heed to it.
The rest of the world absolutely will not.
The rising trade in Asia insures that every ornatissimus or meyeri will be collected anyway.

I would rather see an Unsafe Species List.
I think the most unsuitable species are the deepwater fishes that drive divers to their deaths. Fishes like ventralis anthias, small clown triggers and venustus angels

Boycotting fishes from cyanide sources is another interesting notion. No one will obey it if they want a cyanide species. Public aquariums who promote conservation and education thruout their exhibits buy cyanide caught fishes all the time.
If they won't change their consumer behavior on moral grounds, who else will? What chance would such a movement have to catch on?
I myself have boycotted cyanide species my whole life and have never found it to be a positive, Custokmers always want what they want and how the fish were collected was rarely if ever a factor in their decisions.

This is why you cannot drive this from the top down. The consumer will not push and pressure his retailers for reform and the retailer will not pressure his suppliers for it either...and the wholesaler will not pressure his exporter for reform. The change we need will not happen that way!!

Divers will change for a better alternative and villages and fishermans villages will change for demonstrable, local reasons.

This is how the hundreds of net collecting divers from the Philippines have converted.
This is how it was done...already.
Steve
But then again,

 

[49.35 North]

Musmans call for fresh thinking runs counter to the herd mentality of pop aquarium eco-issues.

I thought his message was about climate change.

I would rather see an Unsafe Species List.

Why don't you suggest it to SAIA?

The consumer will not push and pressure his retailers for reform and the retailer will not pressure his suppliers for it either...and the wholesaler will not pressure his exporter for reform.

I agree that consumer pressure is absolutely critical, but I think you're being excessively pessimistic about whether it can or will ever happen. I can think of lots of examples where consumer pressure has led to environmental change, some of it intermediated by NGOs, some of it not. Try to contain your dislike of google and look up Canadian boreal forest agreement for an example of a huge environmental win that the industry agreed to as a result of consumer pressure.

Boycotting fishes from cyanide sources is another interesting notion. No one will obey it if they want a cyanide species.

Unless it becomes socially unacceptable to have a cyanide species.

 

[cortez marine]

My comments were not theory or conjecture but drawn from historical observation and experience.
The dolphin safe tuna example is the best one and yet hardly applicable to our problem.
Choosing dolphin safe tuna takes no courage, no sacrifice, no vision. You just choose the only cans on the shelf.

Our trade has proven by its longstanding behavior and choices that it draws the line between practice and theory.
In theory, everyones for it...easily.
In practice.....whoa...totally different story.
We are not talking about wether we need reform or not but what form it should take.
I think 15 years of bad strategy needs to change...thats all.
Steve

 

[49.35 North]

Our trade has proven by its longstanding behavior and choices that it draws the line between practice and theory.
In theory, everyones for it...easily.
In practice.....whoa...totally different story.
We are not talking about wether we need reform or not but what form it should take.
I think 15 years of bad strategy needs to change...thats all.
Steve

Steve, you know vastly more than I do about the aquarium trade, but I do know a little bit about regulation, and here's a prediction: either the industry cleans up its act, or sooner or later governments will do it for them.

Just to be clear: I'm not alleging that everyone in the industry engages in unethical and unsustainable behaviour, but a significant number clearly do.

 

[cortez marine]

But why clean it up if you can fake it?

Faking it can work. Its cheaper, easier and just requires good reports on oneself and good accounting of the budget.

Field audits don't happen.
The clip-board corps of city based monitors, certifiers and pencil pushers believe what they are told for the most part.
The head of SAIA got her start by getting a transhipper in France certified by "know nothing" certifiers.
Grants are renewed time and time again suggesting progress and performance.
Industry people breathe a sigh of relief because they are not under the gun anymore...the new non profit organization doing the work for them is.

Why would gov't people shut down something that their own kind say is OK?

AND THATS HOW THE LAST 20 YEARS OF REFORM WENT.

Funding failure is a time honored tradition in foreign aid and white elephant boobdoggles and very often are the products of government agencies themselves!
US AID spent a goood amount of time and money involved in all this.
Indonesian and Philippine aides to high fisheries officials were given American level salaries and their bosses played along.

The US Fish and Wildlife Service has cleared every shipment of cyanide caught fish that has ever entered the country....giving that trade a legal sanction.

The US Coral Reef Task Force has been on top of the wrong approaches for over a decade now. They showed no leadership or grasp of the matter and helped to delay and dither over cyanide detection testing and certification schemes for more then a decade.

Government has by and large been a part of the problem now for a long time.
Kinda like partners.

Steve

 

[AquaKnight]

The thing is, it's the consumer base that drives innovation. I mean, say that USL was created 20 years ago, we wouldn't have SPS corals in the hobby. 15 years ago, all angelfish banned. 5 years ago, no mandarins. Year and a half ago, no orange-spotted filefish. All of which can now all successfully be kept. Who knows how long it is before we keep Rock Beauties and Meyeri's successfully.

 

[cortez marine]

Good point but the Google searches upon which the antiquated knowledge is based are filled with non current "conventional wisdom."

Aquarium people would self correct on this stuff but non aquarium ....aquarium reform types would not as they are unfamiliar with the subject matter they claim to care enough about to want to reform.
Steve

 

[49.35 North]

cotez marine 2, 49.35 North 0

cotez marine 2, 49.35 North 0

Just because some one is listed as a "sponsor" or "Supporter" on a website doesn't make it the truth. Rather then trusting them, why not ask Mr Fenner what he feels about it, or any of the other supporters and sponsors

Here's my message to them and their response:

<Mmm, this is news to me. I do know Christiane Schmidt (cc'd above) and
don't know if Tim is still involved...>

It's been suggested in one of the forums that you don't, in fact,
support them. Could you clarify?
<Don't know what exactly constitutes "support"... I/we are not
"card-carrying members", but I've read over, tried to help with some of
their written tenets, and I do believe (as w/ MAC before them) in the basic
thrusts of what the organization is trying to accomplish>
And at the risk of opening up a huge can of worms, could you comment on
the role of industry bodies like SAIA in promoting sustainability in the
aquarium trade?
Thanks!
<I am (always) hopeful that such NGOs can/will add to the purposes of
diffusing useful information and practices of conservation of resources.
Sorry to be so vague, but I just don't know (that) much re what SAIA has
accomplished thus far.

Using a name and logo without permission is pretty damaging to their credibility - though, like Mr Fenner, I continue to believe in what they're trying to accomplish and I continue to think there's a need for an industry or industry/consumer group to promote sustainability in the aquarium trade.