Aquarium System Stealth Heater

True that - it's been the controller not the element on Titanium heaters. I see some out now with a removable controller so you can change the controller and not have to discard the entire unit - the early ones I used it was "all or nothing" no matter what component fizzed.

By and large, heaters have to be the weak link... over the years I've seen so many fail - many because of breakage or a crack - probably most have "died" that way. I loved the Stealth when it first came out because it did do away with the breakage risk. I could live without the indicator light in order to get more durability - I just find it odd that I've seen so many fail.

Other retailers I've spoken with either report a similar problem - or they don't pay attention to that sort of thing (ie: sell the customer a new heater and don't worry about it)... I'd rather be able to put a more reliable device in a client's tank, without them having to put good money after bad.

Jenn
 
I'd rather be able to put a more reliable device in a client's tank, without them having to put good money after bad.

I'm all for reliability, and true malfunctions can be a big concern. I bash truly bad products from big name companies constantly. But when you claim that induced voltage and current are malfunctions, and start attributing HLLE to this particular heater even when it appears to be working properly, I think it starts to become a rather strong and not well supported opinion.
 
I've read some of your product bashing :( Can't say I agree all the time, but hey - that's anyone's prerogative, right? I wasn't exactly trying to bash a product - just see if anyone's experiences were similar to mine. A client of mine just left the store - he's a home-based breeder of several species of fish, and I mentioned it to him and he's been shocked by some of those heaters - he was unaware they had a lifetime warranty - I suspect he'll be seeking exchanges on his bad ones, if not all of them.

As for the client I'm discussing currently in reference to what we found on November 21, well I can't say either way whether the heater was working properly as far as temperature goes - the customer broke his thermometer and I didn't have one with me when I attended to the problem. We've since supplied him with a new one along with a new heater. Still, in my opinion, a heater that's putting 39 volts into the water, is NOT working "properly" regardless of the water temperature.

We confirmed that the heater was the cause of the voltage by process of elimination. I've seen this sort of thing before - many times. Often a cracked glass heater will do this also.

There are plenty of articles pertaining to associations between HLLE and stray voltage. Again in this instance, I don't know how long the heater was emitting voltage, but with colder weather here, more heaters are coming on, that have not been on during our warm Southern summer and autumn.

I'm going to make my voltage tester available to anyone who suspects a problem with *any* of their equipment, and I'm going to have my service technician test all the tanks we maintain.

Jenn
 
The Cichlid Forum seems to rate the Stealth heater quite highly in its survey (http://www.cichlid-forum.com/reviews/category_display.php?CatID=701).

I prefer the Eheim Jager because:

1. It has an LED indicator.
2. It can be calibrated (http://www.boroniaaquarium.com.au/n...etterSession=7c5a8ab1545a1745e6514e6d836edb6f).
3. It can be set a couple of degrees higher than the controller’s set point for safety.

There may be an easy way to test for a causal relationship between HLLE and stray voltages:

1. Setup two nearly identical fish tanks.
2. Introduce a stray voltage into one.
3. Determine if there is a higher incidence of HLLE in one tank than the other.

To raise money for the experiment, perhaps we can sell aquarium heaters and make windfall profits by bashing competing heaters.
 
Oy vey...

I wasn't trying to bash the heater. I was trying to compare notes with others to see if they had encountered similar problems.

A single individual having a problem with a piece of equipment is an incident. Lots of people having similar problems with the same piece of equipment is a pattern and a product with a pattern of unreliability should be improved or removed from the marketplace.

In my line of work I've noticed a LOT of failures with a particular type/brand of heater. I used Google to search for any other comments on similar issues, and it brought me to this thread, so I posted some comments and asked for more current (pardon the pun) input. Nothing more, nothing less.

I'm still interested in others' experiences with the aforementioned product.

Jenn
 
I have a couple and a Ebo. they all will go on a AC JR for extra protection. All heaters will fail eventually. I have had best success with EBO's though
 
this is pretty amusing.
I just returned one that I bought at Petsmart because it failed to come on Tuesday night. The tank dropped to 71 but everything is fine. I kept the packaging and receipt and the manager replaced the heater with a new one. I can say it worked like a charm for 3 plus years. I will, however, keep a close eye on it.
 
You know, that's why I don't post here much. One usually needs to put on flame proof underwear.

It's a sad thing when someone comes here seeking legitimate information, and they are made a mockery of.

I see some things never change.

Carry on...

Jenn
 
It's a sad thing when someone comes here seeking legitimate information, and they are made a mockery of.

A mockery?

People challenging your assertions are a mockery?

Frankly, if you cannot defend what you are claiming, then you shouldn't post it. Or if you do, you can hardly expect it to go unchallenged. The internet is filled with crapola that people post, misleading newbies and experienced reefers alike to do all kinds of inappropriate things. I spend a lot of volunter time cleanning up such intellectual messes every day. Science is not decided by opinion poll.

On the other hand, if you can defend what you claim in the face of reasonable scientific criticism, then your statements seem even more convincing to readers. That is how scientific debate works. The strongest ideas survive. The weaker ones whither away. Its not a mockery, its the scientific process. :)
 
No, people laughing at the discussion is a mockery.

I have no problem with ideas being challenged.

I'm in the front lines of "mythinformation" 7 days a week at work, so you don't need to lecture me on the crap that circulates because there's very little I haven't heard before.

My opinions and advice are given based on 20+ years in the hobby, 8 years in the trade, and the combined experiences of maintaining dozens of privately owned tanks as well as our commercial systems.

I have been around long enough to know a thing or two.

I really didn't come here to have to defend myself, nor do I feel any need for validation by you or anyone else. I simply asked a question *wondering* if others have had failures of Stealth heaters, because I personally have noticed a pattern of failures. Then you even question my definition of a failure...

Sounds to me like you're more interested in generating an argument than any real useful input. Unfortunately I've seen that a lot here, hence my earlier comment.

There's a few relevant responses in with the junk since I posted, and I'm grateful for those.

Jenn
 
Sorry, I misunderstood the mockery post.

I really didn't come here to have to defend myself, nor do I feel any need for validation by you or anyone else. I simply asked a question *wondering* if others have had failures of Stealth heaters, because I personally have noticed a pattern of failures. Then you even question my definition of a failure...

I know you did not come here for a grilling. But some of the assertions that you made in posting the question were, IMO beyond asking for input, and were extending a hypothesis that I think is incorrect. So yes, I challenged your definition of a product failure and what that "failure" might cause.

Like push polling, there is a big difference between:

1. Anyone have any positive or negative experiences related to Stealth heaters? I'm interested to find out if anyone thinks they may be related to HLLE effects.

2. I've seen many failures such as stray voltage with Stealth heaters that I think cause HLLE for my customers. Can anyone who has similar info post it here so I can take it to the distributor to ask for a refund?

Sounds to me like you're more interested in generating an argument than any real useful input. Unfortunately I've seen that a lot here, hence my earlier comment.

My goal is to make sure that newbies do not walk away from this thread thinking that it is accepted that stray voltage from a heater can cause HLLE, or that Stealth heaters are any different in their induction of stray currents or voltage than any other brand. You've presented all of these as likely hypotheses, if not accepted facts, but when I asked if you ever measured any other similarly sized heaters in the same setup, for example, you did not answer. If you did have a data set displaying some evidence, I'd be a lot more inclined to accept it than as a simple assertion.

If you like, you can call me a science cop, but I do not do it to simply argue.
 
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I simply posted my observations. The latest incident prompted my post here, but I've seen this happen on at least 3 occasions that I can recall - where I can verify that the same brand of heater was in each tank, and a subsequent discovery of stray voltage occurred some time after HLLE was observed in either tangs or angels (usually Yellow Tangs and/or Coral Beauty Angelfish). These are tanks that my service technician maintains (and I maintained them before her - she's maintained them for the last 5 years for me) - and it struck me as odd that she'd report HLLE in one client's tank, but not in another - maintenance procedures and such were the same - equipment differs from tank to tank but water quality is consistently monitored and maintained. It's not a controlled experiment because each tank belongs to a different keeper but for what we could observe as far as parameters and diet went, all things were fairly equal.

It's taken me a bit to see enough "coincidences" to theorize that there's a connection between the heater leaching voltage and the occurrence of HLLE in these tanks. I would hold the same theory to any other piece of equipment that failed or shorted an continued to "function" while leaching voltage into the tank. I've seen a number of different items fail but in my experience, heaters are the #1 offender - no matter what brand - any glass heater can crack - that's as much "user error" as anything - since the Stealth heaters are shatterproof, I'm not seeing any failures in the casings that are resulting in failures of any sort - they just seem to fail for whatever reason and I'm wondering if it's a manufacturing defect.

I've had plenty of these heaters returned by clients - for the reasons I mentioned - stuck on, stuck off, and some tested for voltage and found the heater to be the culprit, after asking my advice and reporting their own observations to me. I learned years ago that when all else appears to be fine (ie water parameters, appropriate husbandry, good diet) and HLLE or other ailments occur (I've seen ich become a chronic issue too in tanks with stray voltage but that's a whole other post and discussion/debate that I don't care to explore right this moment), it's a good idea to test for voltage, if for no other reason, to rule it out as a possible cause.

My posting wasn't so much about the correlation of HLLE to voltage as such - but it *was* about the reliability of Stealth heaters and that one bit about my anecdotal observation was what you ran with.

If you're interested in how many times I've seen stray voltage from one device or another, and what ailments I've observed that either went away or reversed when the voltage issue was corrected, that's a whole other post.

Given that I have seen so many of this particular brand of heater fail relative to other brands(and yes, there are some that never give anyone a day of trouble), I'm trying to figure out what the "right thing" to do is concerning those of my clients that still have these heaters. The proportion of failures I've seen with this particular brand seems to be more than any other brand I've carried in the last 7 years or so - so I quit carrying them a few years ago. There's still plenty of them out there - and not every client I serve buys everything from me, so there are probably a bunch of them out there that I don't know about.

Let me pose it this way... What would YOU do? Pull all the remaining heaters in your maintenance clients' tanks (I think we have 3 clients left with them - the rest have all failed over the last 4 years or so and have since been replaced with another brand) - or wait for them to fail?

Tell the client and give him/her the informed choice based on my observations? Leave well enough alone, or let's go ahead and change out that heater, "just in case" (bearing in mind that *any* brand can fail...) Or say nothing and play "wait and see"?

I do intend to speak with a UPG rep early next week to see if they've got any new info since the last time I approached one after I'd returned about a dozen of the heaters in the 3 months before I spoke to him - perhaps if they are willing to facilitate a return, I'll pull them and replace them and just let the customer know as a courtesy.

Jenn
 
For whatever it's worth, I have two Stealths in my sump, and during a water change a few months back, one of the heaters developed big blisters - as if the heater never shut-off when the water level got too low. They're supposed to automatically shut-off when taken out of water. I e-mailed Aquarium Systems and they didn't even batt an eye lash - just told me to send it back and they'll replace it.

By the way, what's the procedure for testing for stray voltage? I know you're supposed to use a multitester, but where do you stick the leads?
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13882576#post13882576 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by qfrisco

By the way, what's the procedure for testing for stray voltage? I know you're supposed to use a multitester, but where do you stick the leads?
Click to expand...

I've never trusted an auto-shutoff :( UPG *is* good about any warranty issues on any of their equipment - I'll give 'em that.

To test, plug the black wire into the ground outlet (where the "third prong" would go). Set the meter to volts (not ohms or amps) - depends on your meter, but I set mine to 200 which is the lowest setting. When you turn the meter on, you should get a zero reading. Place the red probe into the water and you'll find out if there's volts.

In my experience it's not unusual to see a couple or three volts in a tank - but anything higher than that is cause to unplug devices and figure out what is casting the voltage by process of elimination. We usually begin with the heater since it's the usual culprit, but pumps and other peripheral equipment can throw volts.

In the example I cited earlier, that test showed 39-41 volts - the reading fluctuated as I left the probe sit for a few seconds. When we unplugged the heater and repeated the test, it was a steady 2 volts - which IME is "acceptable". We installed a new heater and tested again with the new heater on and heating - same steady 2 volts as without a heater. Conclusion: heater was throwing volts in this particular instance. I've seen the same thing happen with pumps, too.

Jenn
 
In the example I cited earlier, that test showed 39-41 volts - the reading fluctuated as I left the probe sit for a few seconds. When we unplugged the heater and repeated the test, it was a steady 2 volts - which IME is "acceptable". We installed a new heater and tested again with the new heater on and heating - same steady 2 volts as without a heater. Conclusion: heater was throwing volts in this particular instance. I've seen the same thing happen with pumps, too.

Jenn:

Was that heater in grounded water with a GFCI?

I think there may be some confusion about what you mean by "throwing" or "casting" voltage into the water.

As I understand it, there are only three things that can cause a voltage measurement in seawater. Some are an issue and some are not, IMO.

One involves electrons actually coming out of the wires in the heater and potentially into a ground (if one is available). This a very serious flaw and could kill the aquarist in the right setting. Most of the time, a GFCI in a grounded tank would trigger in such a situation, although the current could be small enough to not trigger it. In a nongrounded tank, it is not necessarily going to trigger a GFCI. If you saw different effects with different heaters of the same size and brand in the same exact setting, this is the likely effect you saw.

The second way to get measurable voltage is by induction by any charges or currents flowing near the water, such as a wire in the water or a heater in the water. Simply by having a voltage inside the wire, there will be a mirroring charge in the water. It is not a current to ground, and it drops off pretty fast as distance from the primary charge increases. It does not trigger a GFCI. IMO, this is very common around lights and wires in tanks, and is not necessarily a defect. In some cases, it can be hard to avoid. Impossible to prevent for an unshielded but insulated wire in the water, for example.

The third way would be simple static charge, from moving water against other surfaces, like plastic pipes. I can't see a heater doing this, but moving water or pumps might. Grounding would likely eliminate or at least greatly reduce this effect.
 
When this customer had his contractor build in the stand for this tank, we had the contractor put in a GFCI circuit for the tank - we requested two, actually - because we don't like to have all our eggs in one basket - typically the main pump will be on one circuit, and backups such as powerheads on another - if one trips, all circulation isn't lost. In this instance, only one GFCI circuit was put in, and everything runs off that.

There is no grounding probe in this particular tank - but it is on a GFCI and in this instance, when I was called to assess the problem that evening, the client reported that earlier that morning, he'd discovered the GFCI tripped. He didn't investigate why (not a smart move on his part), and he said it took several attempts to get the breaker to reset without tripping (another red flag which he ignored). He would have completely ignored the problem except when he returned that evening the yellow tang was wedged into a rock and he thought it was dead. It wasn't dead, but it was distressed and in a posture that indicated this, wedged into a crack in the rock. Only then did he call me to come and take a look.

When he called initially he said there was a burning smell coming from the cabinet area - and unfortunately this guy doesn't even know the names of his equipment but from his description it sounded like the skimmer pump. I asked him to unplug it until I could get there - but he didn't even have the good sense to follow the wire from the device he thought was causing the odor, to the outlet... that's another issue (helpless customer). When I opened the cabinet door I smelled an electrical/burning plastic smell. The heater had no obvious damage to it (I still have the heater here - haven't sent it back yet) - and I've already stated what we did next.

I can't see any obvious defect in the outer casing that would expose a wire or wires directly into the water - but that doesn't mean it's not there - just means I couldn't find any bubbles or cracks.

One other thing I'd like to add - while a grounding probe is a sensible safety device, it's not a substitute for repairing or replacing equipment that is shorting or otherwise leaching voltage. I can save the keeper from a nasty zap - but it's not a "fix" for something that's not functioning properly.

I concur that *some* voltage does not necessarily indicate a defect, and in general, where there's an electrical device, the potential for some stray current exists. In this instance, the tank was carrying 2 volts without a heater (but all other peripheral equipment up and running). The voltage reading jumped in the presence of the defective heater with 39-41 volts. I wouldn't consider a reading of 39-41 as "typical" or acceptable, particularly in light of the fish stressing. As I mentioned before I expected the fish not to make it through the night - but it did and it's behaving normally again since the incident.

Jenn
 
OK, I agree that the heater, if it did trip the GFCI is certainly likely to be defective. I've had that happen with other brands when they broke. If the tank isn't grounded, an open circuit from an exposed wire from a device will not necessarily trip a GFCI until something allows current to flow to ground (like the aquarist's hand in the water and his other hand on something else that is grounded), and such a scenario will show up as elevated voltage in the water.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13868224#post13868224 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Randy Holmes-Farley
I'd rather be able to put a more reliable device in a client's tank, without them having to put good money after bad.

I'm all for reliability, and true malfunctions can be a big concern. I bash truly bad products from big name companies constantly. But when you claim that induced voltage and current are malfunctions, and start attributing HLLE to this particular heater even when it appears to be working properly, I think it starts to become a rather strong and not well supported opinion.
Click to expand...

I'd like to revive this thread once more as I just had my third brand of heater short out internally sending 120 straight to ground. Lucky for me, I use a gounding probe through a GFI.

So here goes: My 120 is up for 1.5 years and my first brand of heater was the Hydor Theo 400w. I had it mounted vertical in my sump at the water line on the heater. It only took a couple of months until I noticed a downward spike in my Redox and a lovely tingly sensation with my hand in the water. I like the tight temperature this heater maintained so I replaced it with another. After about 2 months, the same thing happened.

I decided to ditch that brand and move to something that was supposed to be a little more robust....Jalle Titanium. Within a month the 500w Jalle was leaking by and spanking me with some pretty hefty jolts. I called Jalle and they recommended going with 2 300w for my heating needs. They sent me 2 inn place of the one that failed. Within a couple of months, one of those decided to leak and you guessed it.

I posted a thread on RC looking for a heater that had the least potential of killing me. I got a variety of responses and several were touting the reliability of the Stealth heater. I bought 2 250w. They didn't seem to control as tight as some of the other heaters I've had but by this point I don't give a crap about control anymore. Well, this morning Merry Christmas Jeff, here's something to go with your egg nog....120 to ground tripping off my GFI....dead short. One of them failed and in the worst way.

I will bash any company that at any time loses control of their QC to the point of releasing and out and out dangerous and deadly product. I'm still searching not for the perfect heater with tight control and lacking imaginary stray voltages. I'm looking for one that is SAFE. Period. I realize there will be failures. But I've been through 3 of the most well known brands and have had the same experience with each....sometimes more than once. The ONLY thing I can say positive here is the Stealth lasted the longest before it became a booby trap...4 months. And to me that stinks.

I mount these heaters very carefully as to not make contact with anything but the water. Sometimes vertical, sometimes horizontal depending on the length of the heater.

Do the inline heaters provide any isolation from the water column with respect to catastrophic failures?
 
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