Aquavitro salt (SEACHEM)
- Thread starter Paulairduck
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RBU1
Moving on Up
I think I failed your quiz.....I don't think your thought process is correct. I don't think alk will continue to drop when its in the aquarium. I assume you are stating that you think the ALK will continue to drop even when its in the tank.
How should I mix it up slowly so it does not cloud?
Dump less in or add the salt to the water at slower rate. To often people add to much salt to their mixing container at once. So, as that salt enters allot of that salt is in a small area and in that small area the salt is to concentrated and creates a snow storm. You do know what a snow storm is correct ? Let pretend you have a 50 gal container and with-in 10 min you have added all the salt you need for that 50 gals. Now lets add that salt over a time of 1 hr. You will find allot more stuff on the bottom with that all in 10 min vs that over 1 hr time. Because when you add less over time it can dissolve more readily with no snow storms. A even worse case is to put the salt in a MT container and then add the water. The other issue is people often do not have enough circulation, as the lower the circulation the more issues one will have with deposits and lowering the Alk, Ca++ and Mg++. Some like to dump it in fast as this pulls heavy metals out of the water as precip s that can not redissolve. Then they just add back in more Ca++ and buffer for that lost.
Dump less in or add the salt to the water at slower rate. To often people add to much salt to their mixing container at once. So, as that salt enters allot of that salt is in a small area and in that small area the salt is to concentrated and creates a snow storm. You do know what a snow storm is correct ? Let pretend you have a 50 gal container and with-in 10 min you have added all the salt you need for that 50 gals. Now lets add that salt over a time of 1 hr. You will find allot more stuff on the bottom with that all in 10 min vs that over 1 hr time. Because when you add less over time it can dissolve more readily with no snow storms. A even worse case is to put the salt in a MT container and then add the water. The other issue is people often do not have enough circulation, as the lower the circulation the more issues one will have with deposits and lowering the Alk, Ca++ and Mg++. Some like to dump it in fast as this pulls heavy metals out of the water as precip s that can not redissolve. Then they just add back in more Ca++ and buffer for that lost.
RBU1
Moving on Up
Well when you talk to L tomorrow......Ask her about the ALK continuing to drop when its in the tank.....
I can't see that being the case. She explained it to me again about 10 minutes ago but my memory is not good enough to remember all she stated. Basically most salts do not have all parameters at or around normal sea levels like Salinity does. When you reduce an item such as magnesium or calcium and replace it with more salt the mix will be clear but will be missing something....
I can't see that being the case. She explained it to me again about 10 minutes ago but my memory is not good enough to remember all she stated. Basically most salts do not have all parameters at or around normal sea levels like Salinity does. When you reduce an item such as magnesium or calcium and replace it with more salt the mix will be clear but will be missing something....
Nope...you assumption is incorrect!....well - maybe.....
I have actually seen 2 different cases where it di bring the Ph and kh down. But - with smaller water changes, quite the opposite should happen. Again - I believe it is a volumetric dilema.
So - rather than changing a large amount all at once, if the water changes are spaced out, and we pay attention to the Ph and kh in the tank, we can assure that does not happen.
I have done it to myself - ( which is a sort of un-intended creedo
)T
I should have been moe clear:
On two occasions I have done large water changes, 150, and 325 gallons with Salinity.These were done on a system of 425 gallons of water in it. I saw Ph an Kh DROP in those cases, and proportionate to the gallonage changed.
And - the salt had been mixed up for a few days.
But with smaller water changes, I see no real change in Ph or Kh. I am betting we will have more discussions with Seachem about this, and - the outcome will be a much better understanding about this.
T
On two occasions I have done large water changes, 150, and 325 gallons with Salinity.These were done on a system of 425 gallons of water in it. I saw Ph an Kh DROP in those cases, and proportionate to the gallonage changed.
And - the salt had been mixed up for a few days.
But with smaller water changes, I see no real change in Ph or Kh. I am betting we will have more discussions with Seachem about this, and - the outcome will be a much better understanding about this.
T
I had been using another brand, that had some quality control issues, and by the time I checked all the peramters - everything was WAY out of whack - I was losing some corals, and decided to rectify the situation quickly - because I was concerned that by drawing it out over time, the losses would be too great. Was a risk, but it worked out well.
And of course, my fear of using freshly mixed water, - old habit ( and maybe one that I can get past via this discussion...but I have much more reading to do) - definitely contributed.
T
And of course, my fear of using freshly mixed water, - old habit ( and maybe one that I can get past via this discussion...but I have much more reading to do) - definitely contributed.
T
When you reduce an item such as magnesium or calcium and replace it with more salt the mix will be clear but will be missing something....
True and an old trick is to add more NaCl, which lowers the activity coefficient of the water making 'salts' more soluble.
You must mean Lindsey Kayal, who is the head of Technical Support at Seachem. She is a biologists but seems fairly sharp.
Basically most salts do not have all parameters at or around normal sea levels like Salinity does.
And this is not so. Tell them you want a full blown data sheet of other salts in this hobby to prove that claim. They also confuse you on their data sheets as NSW is given in g/kg and in the Scientific world that equal ppm and not mg/l, which they convert to so it look like the is more of it than there is. Their pH and Alk is much higher than NSW and NSW has nowhere near that pH or Alk. But I have not issue with their pH and Alk. They also do their conversion wrong as they use a Density of 1.026 and that is if the water temp is 15 C. At the temp we use it is more like 25 C, which is 1.023 D ( Density is NOT specific Gravity).
So their claim at our temp of Ca++ for example they give as
422 NSW ..............................should be 420.7 mg/ l = 411 ppm
409 Their Salinity salt low.........should be 407.8 mg/ l = 398 ppm
435 Their Salinity salt high........should be 433.7 mg/ l = 424 ppm
But as you can see this is no real argument.
I told Greg, CEO of SeaChem awhile back, to get off this mg / l thing and stay with the norm of ppm. It gets people all messed up.
True and an old trick is to add more NaCl, which lowers the activity coefficient of the water making 'salts' more soluble.
You must mean Lindsey Kayal, who is the head of Technical Support at Seachem. She is a biologists but seems fairly sharp.
Basically most salts do not have all parameters at or around normal sea levels like Salinity does.
And this is not so. Tell them you want a full blown data sheet of other salts in this hobby to prove that claim. They also confuse you on their data sheets as NSW is given in g/kg and in the Scientific world that equal ppm and not mg/l, which they convert to so it look like the is more of it than there is. Their pH and Alk is much higher than NSW and NSW has nowhere near that pH or Alk. But I have not issue with their pH and Alk. They also do their conversion wrong as they use a Density of 1.026 and that is if the water temp is 15 C. At the temp we use it is more like 25 C, which is 1.023 D ( Density is NOT specific Gravity).
So their claim at our temp of Ca++ for example they give as
422 NSW ..............................should be 420.7 mg/ l = 411 ppm
409 Their Salinity salt low.........should be 407.8 mg/ l = 398 ppm
435 Their Salinity salt high........should be 433.7 mg/ l = 424 ppm
But as you can see this is no real argument.
I told Greg, CEO of SeaChem awhile back, to get off this mg / l thing and stay with the norm of ppm. It gets people all messed up.
I told Greg, CEO of SeaChem awhile back, to get off this mg / l thing and stay with the norm of ppm. It gets people all messed up.
I agree Boomer - and similarly, they scoff at the use of dkh for a standard unit of measure of alkalinity...Wonder why the resistance to adopt a common standard that is so well recognized?
T
I agree Boomer - and similarly, they scoff at the use of dkh for a standard unit of measure of alkalinity...Wonder why the resistance to adopt a common standard that is so well recognized?
T
this is what happened to my first batch of this salt, I over added the salt to a five gallon mix and had to dilute it with another 5 gallons, this must have caused the over saturation of the mix, next water change will hopefully be different with less salt mix added to the 5 gallon water change
I went by the normal volume of salt per five gallons using DD. I know one thing, this bucket of salt is going to last me quite a long time compared to other brands that I have used!!
RBU1
Moving on Up
Got a call back from Lindsey -
Recognition that the possibility of cloudy (undissolved) mix could be detrimental to sensitive organisms, tho "in our experience, we have not witnessed any problems". This is fair and, along the lines of what RBU1 is saying. And she added that it would be irresponsible to presume that adding cloudy/un-dissolved mix to a system with particulary sensitive animals could not be potentially bad.
We each need to draw our own conclusions here. if you are comfortable with it - fine, and if not - then don't.
I guess I come back to this: if the salt has not had the opportunity to completely dissolve, how can it possibly be percieved/accepted by corals as chemically compatible with what they have been accustomed to? And what about the lowering of the alk. after mixing, and not using it for a couple of days? ( Reports form users of Tropic Marin Pro have stated the opposite. Low initial alk, but it climbs after mixing for a day or two) Still have some thinking to do about this....
However - if you are doing comparitively small water changes to the overal volume of the system -probably far less chance of any "shocking" of animals.
We also talked about teh impact of the temperature of the water influencing the solubility of the salt.
It seems that ideally if the water temp. is 73-75F, clarity is achieved much faster. But at 78 and above - one gets precipitation....
So - the selection of anhydrous ingredients to make Salinity, which helps to make a product that can fit 225 gal of salt @ 1.026 ....also creates a significant exothermic reaction when mixing it up, if you pour in all of the salt needed to make the batch inteneded - at once ( Thank you Boomer for pointing that out!)
So it seems that what I have learned here is this:
In order to achieve the clarity that I am more comfortable with, (- and more importantly - within the timeframe recommended, so that the alk. does not drop -) I should start with cooler water - or add the salt much more slowly, keeping the temperature rise to a minimum. (Perhaps placing a digital thermometer with remote sensor in the mixing vat...?)
T
Recognition that the possibility of cloudy (undissolved) mix could be detrimental to sensitive organisms, tho "in our experience, we have not witnessed any problems". This is fair and, along the lines of what RBU1 is saying. And she added that it would be irresponsible to presume that adding cloudy/un-dissolved mix to a system with particulary sensitive animals could not be potentially bad.
We each need to draw our own conclusions here. if you are comfortable with it - fine, and if not - then don't.
I guess I come back to this: if the salt has not had the opportunity to completely dissolve, how can it possibly be percieved/accepted by corals as chemically compatible with what they have been accustomed to? And what about the lowering of the alk. after mixing, and not using it for a couple of days? ( Reports form users of Tropic Marin Pro have stated the opposite. Low initial alk, but it climbs after mixing for a day or two) Still have some thinking to do about this....
However - if you are doing comparitively small water changes to the overal volume of the system -probably far less chance of any "shocking" of animals.
We also talked about teh impact of the temperature of the water influencing the solubility of the salt.
It seems that ideally if the water temp. is 73-75F, clarity is achieved much faster. But at 78 and above - one gets precipitation....
So - the selection of anhydrous ingredients to make Salinity, which helps to make a product that can fit 225 gal of salt @ 1.026 ....also creates a significant exothermic reaction when mixing it up, if you pour in all of the salt needed to make the batch inteneded - at once ( Thank you Boomer for pointing that out!)
So it seems that what I have learned here is this:
In order to achieve the clarity that I am more comfortable with, (- and more importantly - within the timeframe recommended, so that the alk. does not drop -) I should start with cooler water - or add the salt much more slowly, keeping the temperature rise to a minimum. (Perhaps placing a digital thermometer with remote sensor in the mixing vat...?)
T
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My pleasure RB!
You know, I think it is time I try something a little new.... I think because I have almost all SPS in my tank - it just makes me a bit more hesitant sometimes. I will try it on a smaller water change, and - based on the talk with Linsey today, I think I can find a "comfortable compromise" that allows me to get clarity faster, and have a higher Kh mix going in!
I do trust Seachem and their products. There is no company that I have dealt with so dedicated to making good products for us.
One of the thangs about them that many here may not know -: If you are going to work at Seachem, you WILL have an aquarium, in your office - and you WILL maintain it top notch. Makes it much more acceptable to take advice from , and place trust in folks that you KNOW keep an aquarium.
T
You know, I think it is time I try something a little new.... I think because I have almost all SPS in my tank - it just makes me a bit more hesitant sometimes. I will try it on a smaller water change, and - based on the talk with Linsey today, I think I can find a "comfortable compromise" that allows me to get clarity faster, and have a higher Kh mix going in!
I do trust Seachem and their products. There is no company that I have dealt with so dedicated to making good products for us.
One of the thangs about them that many here may not know -: If you are going to work at Seachem, you WILL have an aquarium, in your office - and you WILL maintain it top notch. Makes it much more acceptable to take advice from , and place trust in folks that you KNOW keep an aquarium.
T
