Are Deep Sand Beds, DSBs, dangerous to use in a marine aquarium?

[power boat jim]

Paul,

Wouldnt it be best for super models to always set up to be bare bottom? I think that would be the most successful choice. Maybe thats a question for another thread.:twitch:

 

[Fredfish]

Paul,

Wouldnt it be best for super models to always set up to be bare bottom? I think that would be the most successful choice. Maybe thats a question for another thread.:twitch:

Your advice is always so practical.

 

[power boat jim]

Your advice is always so practical.

Thanks Fred,After 33 pages it was time for some advice most of us would not argue over .

 

[reefgeezer]

Thanks Fred,After 33 pages it was time for some advice most of us would not argue over .

Yep... it's over... been trying to formulate an argument for a half hour... just can't come up with one. So let it be written!

 

[Paul B]

Jim, maybe the both of us should stick to boating advice. :wave:

Today is a boating day and hopefully also a collecting day, so have a great day

 

[billsreef]

I feel a natural system is the way to go.

What is natural about a glass box in someones house?

I don't think fish should ever get sick.

Considering fish diseases and parasites all come from nature, and are quite natural, why shouldn't fish get sick? That would indeed be quite unnatural.

If you have a "mini cycle" it means your tank is living on the verge of crashing all the time.

Agreed, though you probably need a larger tank for the Manatee.
I won't tell the FWC

I don't buy into un-natural things such as DSBs.

Paul, go down the beach tomorrow with a shovel. Start digging, and tell me just how deep the sand is before you run out of sand

natural algae can take care of any problems and do it naturally and for free.

Don't forget some algaes are actually quite problematic, some even toxic. Red tide anyone?

Our fish are scared of PVC plumbing

That's just hilariously untrue :lol:

I don't agree that nitrates and phosphates cause hair algae.

True, they don't cause hair algae, but they sure to help it grow.

Ich is stupid, the life cycle is stupid and fish shouldn't get it, ever.

Then how and why do fish in nature get it? If they shouldn't ever get it, it shouldn't even exist.

Live food is the way to go and if you feed live food every day, just about all those other problems will magically go away.

For some reason even fish in nature eating nothing but live foods have parasites. After all, nature is where these diseases come from.

BTW, just what is natural about a marine fish eating a FW worm that dies within minutes of being introduced to SW?

 

[CStrickland]

That's just hilariously untrue :lol:

My fish are scared of pvc... and allergic to gluten. Paul tried yellin at me over it, but I flattered him defenseless by calling him the justin bieber of reefing and tossing a Budweiser can in my tank.

I'm working on a pipeline that will carry my phosphates out to deep water like the tides do, it will lead to an abyss in my basement where new bedrock will form so I have nice live rock to start tanks with in a few millennia. My neighbor's a hipster blacksmith so we went halfsies on the magma furnace. The only thing is I'm having trouble with the pex tubing melting when the tide comes in. It's a work in progress.

 

[power boat jim]

My fish are scared of pvc... and allergic to gluten. Paul tried yellin at me over it, but I flattered him defenseless by calling him the justin bieber of reefing and tossing a Budweiser can in my tank.

I'm working on a pipeline that will carry my phosphates out to deep water like the tides do, it will lead to an abyss in my basement where new bedrock will form so I have nice live rock to start tanks with in a few millennia. My neighbor's a hipster blacksmith so we went halfsies on the magma furnace. The only thing is I'm having trouble with the pex tubing melting when the tide comes in. It's a work in progress.

I hope the can of Bud was empty, or you may start a new trend of beer dosing.

 

[CStrickland]

As if. A full can would be a major party foul

 

[Floyd R Turbo]

someone dumped a few cups of beer in my 55g FW tank when I was in high school, having a kegger when the parents were gone. The next day some of the fish were swimming upside down. I mean it, they were swimming around like everything was chill, then they would flip over upside down and swim around for a while, then flip back over again...

I wouldn't recommend beer dosing

 

[Paul B]

What is natural about a glass box in someones house?

As natural as our bald heads

Considering fish diseases and parasites all come from nature, and are quite natural, why shouldn't fish get sick?

I will let them get sick in your tank, not mine.

That's just hilariously untrue

How do you know fishare not scared of PVC. Why do you think they don't sell fish in Home Depot?

Don't forget some algaes are actually quite problematic,

I try to forget everything

Paul, go down the beach tomorrow with a shovel. Start digging, and tell me just how deep the sand is before you run out of sand

DSBs make me sad and give me gas

Agreed, though you probably need a larger tank for the Manatee.

Agreed, as long as there is no DSB

Then how and why do fish in nature get it? If they shouldn't ever get it, it shouldn't even exist

They can get it in your tank if you like. Not mine as they are immune. They get along with parasites just fine and they would really hate to spend 72 days in isolation. Mine don't have to do that. They go right in my tank where they enjoy a long life as if they were in Tahiti.

For some reason even fish in nature eating nothing but live foods have parasites

Yes, but in the sea and in my tank, they don't affect them. In quarantined tanks parasites would kill everything

BTW, just what is natural about a marine fish eating a FW worm that dies within minutes of being introduced to SW?

I really don't know but maybe I will ask my 20 year old, spawning fish that have eaten worms every day of their lives.

If my fish were not living long or if I didn't have the oldest tank on here, you would have some good points. But we know how that goes. But Bill, I still love you and enjoy these talks. It is cold and raining here now so I am jealous of Floridians. :beer:

 

[Jay_R]

Back to the original question.. IMO DSBs are not beneficial, and there is no need to create one in a new tank set up.

I wouldn't go as far as to say they are dangerous ( unless disturbed ), but they do often contain 'waste' which accumulates over time, and I personally would rather this waste was out of my enclosed system. Same reason I flush my loo, and not just leave it in a bucket under my house for the flies to deal with.

I also prefer the beneficial bacteria in my system to deal with the daily grind, and not perpetually increasing bio loads.

I also like the satisfying feeling I have knowing that the system is clean, and I can disturb my sand bed without worrying about a feces storm later down the line.

 

[Jay_R]

Double post

 

[Dan_P]

By the same token, what evidence is there that these things actually work? What studies have been done that show when the bed has been added to a system the nitrate levels actually came down and it could be attributed directly to the sand?

Toonan's two part substrate study in Advanced Aquarist indicates denitrification in sand. Studies of marine sediment using microprobes show that anoxic conditions can occur within mm of the surface and definitely within a few centimeters. Given that water movement and sediment mixing has to be much lower in aquariums than in nature, favorable denitrification environments must exist. There should be little doubt that sand beds facilitate denitrification.

The deep, shallow or no sand bed debate is bogged down in rehashing the same limited number of anecdotal data that are poorly detailed, continually added to over time with conjecture and analogies. The story about the issues srrounding deep sand beds is probably more credible than Big Foot sightings but hardly an open and shut case. Conversely, the benefits of deep sand beds are equally overblown based on facts alone.

To be a real service to this hobby, we need the original stories with all the detail in one place and availabe for all to reexamine. I will make a prediction that very few deep sand incidents actually occurred, say 10-20 (we keep rehashing the same ones and over time it only seems like a large number of incidents), and that for each incident very little useful information is available to be able to conclude much of anything.

 

[Jay_R]

Toonan's two part substrate study in Advanced Aquarist indicates denitrification in sand. Studies of marine sediment using microprobes show that anoxic conditions can occur within mm of the surface and definitely within a few centimeters. Given that water movement and sediment mixing has to be much lower in aquariums than in nature, favorable denitrification environments must exist. There should be little doubt that sand beds facilitate denitrification.

The deep, shallow or no sand bed debate is bogged down in rehashing the same limited number of anecdotal data that are poorly detailed, continually added to over time with conjecture and analogies. The story about the issues srrounding deep sand beds is probably more credible than Big Foot sightings but hardly an open and shut case. Conversely, the benefits of deep sand beds are equally overblown based on facts alone.

To be a real service to this hobby, we need the original stories with all the detail in one place and availabe for all to reexamine. I will make a prediction that very few deep sand incidents actually occurred, say 10-20 (we keep rehashing the same ones and over time it only seems like a large number of incidents), and that for each incident very little useful information is available to be able to conclude much of anything.

As we all know, denitrification is the process of converting nitrate into a hydrogen gas.

A DSB is merely a tool to assist this process.

The OP's question is "are they dangerous". The answer is 'No' if left well alone say in a fuge... And 'Potentially' if disturbed enough to release all the 'waste' that's been collecting therein.

I personally wouldn't have a DSB in my DT as the DT is always getting messed about with, by both myself and my tank inhabitants and the associated risks are higher.

If the question was 'do I need a DSB' I think the answer is subjective and relative to the set-up. There are numerous ways to remove nitrate from a system.. with a DSB being one, but not the only one.

As before, I prefer to flush

 

[power boat jim]

As we all know, denitrification is the process of converting nitrate into a hydrogen gas.

A DSB is merely a tool to assist this process.

The OP's question is "are they dangerous". The answer is 'No' if left well alone say in a fuge... And 'Potentially' if disturbed enough to release all the 'waste' that's been collecting therein.

I personally wouldn't have a DSB in my DT as the DT is always getting messed about with, by both myself and my tank inhabitants and the associated risks are higher.

If the question was 'do I need a DSB' I think the answer is subjective and relative to the set-up. There are numerous ways to remove nitrate from a system.. with a DSB being one, but not the only one.

As before, I prefer to flush

Just for the record and not being picky, the end result of the denitrification process is molecular nitrogen.

 

[Jay_R]

Just for the record and not being picky, the end result of the denitrification process is molecular nitrogen.

Lol for your benefit PB Jim; 2NO3- + 10e- + 12H = NO2 + 6H20 :hmm3:

 

[power boat jim]

Lol for your benefit PB Jim; 2NO3- + 10e- + 12H = NO2 + 6H20 :hmm3:

First I heard of the process going that far. I stand corrected.

 

[Dan_P]

As we all know, denitrification is the process of converting nitrate into a hydrogen gas.

As before, I prefer to flush

I think you meant nitrogen N2, not hydrogen gas.

Would you consider a composting toilet?

 

[Jay_R]

I think you meant nitrogen N2, not hydrogen gas.

Would you consider a composting toilet?

Well spotted! I was in the middle of treating a spot of GHA with Hydrogen Peroxide.. So had hydrogen on the brain

And no.. Wouldn't personally consider a compost under my house.