Are you prepared for emergencies?

Man, "that sucks" is right! If it were me, I be tearing someone a new as@h#$e. You rented 2 BC's both of which failed... putting both of you in a potentially VERY DANGEROUS situation. On top of that, the equipment failure likely caused you a financial loss as well as opportunity loss. What the heck... all you ever hear from the dive shops is "be sure to have your equipment serviced" and in the case of the shop you rented from... they are obviously not following the rules. What is the name of the shop you rented from? What, if any, certifying agency are they affilliated with? I would absolutely not stand for that!!! Have they already agreed to compensate you for your losses, did they charge you for the rental? It would be interesting to watch "the compensation" had one of you been injured or killed due to that equipment failure! You seem like you are taking this pretty well.

Would you be willing to share the name of the operation that provided you (for a fee) the rental of 2 BC's, both of which failed on the same dive? Of course, if they handled the situation in a professional manner to your satisfaction please dont name them here. Regardless of how they handled the situation I would think twice before renting from them again. And of course, you made it through another "situation". Remember, what doesnt kill you, makes you stronger. Do you think you were "set up" with defective BC's as part of your training? While I understand the methodology, if that was the case, in my opinion, that would be highly unethical and dangerous.

Its crap like that that gives good dive ops a bad name.

Sincerely,
Chris
PADI Divemaster
 
Last edited:
The shop is a local one and we are friends with the owners. They generally keep up their equipment very well and this was sort of a fluke occurrance. We aren't going to be charged because the shop has a policy that they guarantee the equipment will work as it should and they have been in business for more than 30 years with no accidents on their record. We won't have any problems with payment since they would never dream of making us pay for equipment that messed up and will take care of the problem ASAP. They are a reputable establishment.
There are shops out there that aren't and that was the point I was trying to get across when I said to check your rental gear prior to diving. And I agree with you that the bad ones should be reported and possibly shut down if they are going to be dangerous to rent from.
 
Im glad to hear that you are satisfied with the outcome. I second your vote for labelling this as a fluke... 2 BC's, 2 failures.... that is why I wondered if you were "set-up" as part of your training. Well, look on the bright side. You now have complete BC failure experience and lived to tell the tale! Definately useful experience... dont forget to log it!! congrats
 
punkup,

What happened to your snorkel? I see this often in divers above basic cert level. I wont leave the shore without mine!

As far as the overweighting and air consumption... do you link these two events?... If so, why?

Did you identify anything (other than proper weighting) that you might do differently in the future if a similar situation presents itself?

Im not criticizing... I just like to discuss this sort of thing ... Im sure others can benefit.


OK.....
It sounds like you were using a j valve... is that true?
It also sounds like you would use a snorkel in the future.
You said that separating from your buddy was a "BIG MISTAKE".
Do you carry a "safety sausage" now?
Did your BC have a manual inflator hose?
Do you think "swimming like there was no tomorrow" got you further per unit air consumed than if you swam like there were plenty of tomorrows?

Again, no criticism here... just constructive discussion.
 
sammiefish said:
punkup,

What happened to your snorkel? I see this often in divers above basic cert level. I wont leave the shore without mine!

.
Click to expand...

I never wear a snorkle. Aside from the extra drag, I don't like the risk of entangling something which is attached to my mask (plus it doesn't work with the long hose). On the surface, I swim on my back - it's a more efficent way to swim and, in an emergency, you want to be looking around, not putting your face in the water.
 
Ever notice when diving with your dive buddy that they either stay so close that they bump into you all the time...use their arms too much or kick you in the head with their fins. Then maybe do the opposite and swim ahead and never look back to see where you are. If I had a problem there would be no way to get their attention. I read where one guy got tangled in fishing line...at night and even had a blow horn and the other guys just swam away. He was one lucky diver because he just bought a knife the day before! While he was freeing himself the other divers went to shore and paid little attention to him and just watched his night light out in the lake.
I have an idea...tell me what you think of it. If two divers were to use a 10 ft. piece of rope with velcro attached to one wrist of each diver...then whenever their was a problem or you need to get the other guys attention...just tug on the rope. They would never get too far away and if you had to release the rope just undue the velcro! George
 
MS,
While I can understand your perspective you fail to consider the unexpected. In rough water (which can come up very quickly even on a beautiful day) you cant easily swim on your back. If you had to dump/lose your BC how are you going to swim? The snorkel will help you not get mouths/lungs full of water.
Just thoughts for consideration...

condor,
yeah, I think thats a good idea. its especially good in no visibility or darkness... the thing is that you and your buddy should practice with such a thing in good conditions first. Similar procedures are used during rescue/recovery dive team ops.
 
sammiefish said:
MS,
While I can understand your perspective you fail to consider the unexpected. In rough water (which can come up very quickly even on a beautiful day) you cant easily swim on your back. If you had to dump/lose your BC how are you going to swim? The snorkel will help you not get mouths/lungs full of water.
Just thoughts for consideration...
.
Click to expand...

I've been in very rough water and I still feel swimming on your back is the way to go. In those conditions, I would keep my reg, not a snorkel in mouth. I can't think why I would even "dump" my bp/wing.
 
MS,

I agree that with your SCUBA finning backwards on the surface is a good way to go...

I think you are missing my point... in an emergency where you have dumped your SCUBA you dont have a reg to breathe from....

If you cant think why you might dump (or lose) your SCUBA you might try to think again... your training has (hopefully) provided you with scenarios which include this distinct possibility. If you still cant think of a reason why you would dump your SCUBA then you might not make it to the issue of wishing you had a snorkel. Remember, emergencies are never planned (hence the title of this thread).

I am not trying to tell you, "you have to wear a snorkel"... (there are no SCUBA police).

Ultimately the only one that can save you in an emergency is you.

I am trying to say:

It is a very good idea to wear a snorkel.

Best regards,
SF

A really smart man will learn from the mistakes of others.
 
The chance of losing one's BC is very, very remote. Wearing a snorkle is a poor choice and a heads up to expericed divers that you do not know what you are doing. Snorkles create drag and are a serious entanglment ris - PLUS - you can't wear a long hose with one - but I guess your training taught you that's a long hose is a bad idea, but planning to lose your rig is a something to be prepared for???

I wear a one piece harness, I'm not worried about losing or ditching my gear.






sammiefish said:
MS,

I agree that with your SCUBA finning backwards on the surface is a good way to go...

I think you are missing my point... in an emergency where you have dumped your SCUBA you dont have a reg to breathe from....

If you cant think why you might dump (or lose) your SCUBA you might try to think again... your training has (hopefully) provided you with scenarios which include this distinct possibility. If you still cant think of a reason why you would dump your SCUBA then you might not make it to the issue of wishing you had a snorkel. Remember, emergencies are never planned (hence the title of this thread).

I am not trying to tell you, "you have to wear a snorkel"... (there are no SCUBA police).

Ultimately the only one that can save you in an emergency is you.

I am trying to say:

It is a very good idea to wear a snorkel.

Best regards,
SF

A really smart man will learn from the mistakes of others.
Click to expand...
 
having logged hundreds's of dives as a PADI Divemaster, recreationally, teaching, and as a special operations rescue recovery diver, I can say I have never heard of anyone thinking that using a snorkel is a sign that you dont know what you are doing!

It is very common that "advanced" divers do not use them for one reason or another.

I do not think that it is likely that any emergency will occur... just that it is possible.

Here is another thing to think about...

in accidents where SCUBA divers die... many times the diver still has air left in the tank.... hmmm... pretty freaky huh?

The risk of death to a diver is greatest during their dive #1-25 and over 100... the deaths from dives 1-25 are likely due to inexperience.
the deaths of divers with over 100 dives is likely due to over-confidence and complacency...

Maybe having pulled the dead from the water has kept me on the straight and narrow...
 
I never use a snorkel but there is a very specific reason for this. In the Hogarthian equipment configuration that I and other technical divers use, you breath from a 7 ft long hose that is wrapped around your neck. For those who are unfamiliar with this, the hose starts from the right post of your doubles (or single tank with an H-valve), runs down your right side, goes under your canister light (or reel) at your waist, comes up across your chest to your left shoulder, over the back of your neck, then into your mouth from the right. To donate gas to another diver you simply take the regulator out of your mouth while nodding your head down and pass it to the other diver. The hose automatically unwraps in a very smooth manner that could not be accomplished while using a snorkel because it would snag it. Wrecks also can not be penetrated because the snorkel will act as a trap for all the dangling wires and the wreck line that you run along your route. In cave diving a snorkel is never used for obvious reasons. All technical courses that I am aware of require the snorkel to be removed. As a result, I have learned not to rely on a snorkel at all. I do all my surface swimming on my back (which by the way is very energy efficient).

I do own a folding snorkel that I could potentially stick in the pocket of my dry-suit, but feel that it would not help me in the case of an emergency because I do my surface resting while floating on my back. I have done this in quite choppy seas and have never had a problem with it. When you float on your back, your tank acts as a keel weight and allows more of body to be exposed on the surface. Since my dry-suit is bright red in the chest area, this would help me get spotted more easily in a search and rescue scenario. I can also keep looking upward and shoot off a flare if I see a plane or chopper (yes I do carry flares for trips far out from the coast).
 
condor13090 said:
Ever notice when diving with your dive buddy that they either stay so close that they bump into you all the time...use their arms too much or kick you in the head with their fins. Then maybe do the opposite and swim ahead and never look back to see where you are. If I had a problem there would be no way to get their attention.

...snip...

I have an idea...tell me what you think of it. If two divers were to use a 10 ft. piece of rope with velcro attached to one wrist of each diver...then whenever their was a problem or you need to get the other guys attention...just tug on the rope. They would never get too far away and if you had to release the rope just undue the velcro! George
Click to expand...

Condor, I understand the rationale behind your idea but I feel that using a rope as you describe is a potentially dangerous approach (except for some very unusual situations). Consider a dive over a beautiful Acropora reef with a dangling rope ready to get snagged in the branches of the coral. Even an all-rock reef offers a similar snagging potential. One should always strive to streamline ones equipment by eliminating dangling consoles and other "doo dads" that can potentially snag the diver and damage the reef. I have actually seen someone get their console caught in branching coral, causing the diver to panic and break the coral (very sad).

The real solution to your problem is to get another dive buddy. A diver that uses hands for swimming and kicks you in the face is neither a good dive buddy nor a skilled diver. A good dive buddy swims along your side, not ahead or behind unless you are entering a constriction in a wreck or cave. A good dive buddy will also exchange OKs ever 30 seconds or so. My dive buddy and I use light as a primary form of communication (even during the day). There is a fairly standard vocabulary that is expressed by specific movements of the light. In any case tethering yourself to a bad dive buddy still leave you stuck with a bad dive buddy. I strongly suggest you either get your buddy to work with you as a team, or find someone else.
 
now thats cool stuff...

Ive been planning tech for quite some time. Im planning the purchase of a set of doubles and an OMS or Halcyon plate/wings...

All our diving in the St. Lawrence starts at 100 ft pretty much.

A popular tech dive here is the Roy Jodery... 750ft costal freighter sunk in 1977 after it struck a shoal and was attempting to beach itself on Wellsley Island. it now lies in water starting at 150 ft and goes to 3 something.

Have you been up to the St. Lawrence River.... 100's of years of commercial shipping and 1000 Islands means 10,000 shoals.... ='s hundreds of shipwrecks, many are 1700's era wooden masted schooners... some still in great shape.
 
Yes, the St. Lawrence River is a great place and Jodery is great wreck (I will be diving her later this month). Its bow is at 150 ft as you said, and its stern goes down to a little over 240 ft. Currents are quite swift and shipping traffic is dangerous, particularly if you are blown off the wreck and have to do a hanging deco mid-channel. You may be interested in a previous thread on the St. Lawrence:
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=618422

If you plan on purchasing a backplate/harness/wings, I would take definitely go with Halcyon over OMS. You might also want to take a look at DiveRite. I would caution you against any harnesses with quick-release shoulder buckles as they are potentially more dangerous. A clean simple continuous harness is preferred. As you are probably aware, in technical diving, less is more. For tanks, in cold water (steel) check out Pressed Steel, for warm water (Aluminum) you have a variety of choices. I could go into lots detail on the topic of technical gear but this is probably not the right thread for that. Do feel free to start a new thread or email me if you wish.
 
i just want to thank all of you for sharing these stories because i will be getting certified soon after i get my license in december. ive really learned alot from this thread thanx alot guys
 
I just want to 2nd what mightymouse said, I've learned a lot.

I have a question that could become it's own thread....

"Spare Air" product (www.spareair.com) What are some "expert" opinions on this product? At face value it seems like a good idea...

Also what's your opinion on thier saftey kit (these items are in the kit):

This kit includes:
10ââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢ Safety Sausage
Industrial Grade Light Stick
Deluxe Whistle
9ââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢ Buddy Lanyard
Stainless Steel Signaling Mirror
Mesh Kit Bag ââ"šÂ¬Ã¢â‚¬Å“ fits in BCD pocket

I think my life and my wife's life is well worth the $$$, but is the product worth it? Does it do what it says it can do?
 
OK, here's my opinion. I really really dislike this product for several reasons. First off, let's look at their "large" version with a 3 cu-ft capacity. If you are down at 100 ft (where the pressure is 4 ATA) those 3 cu-ft shrink down to a mere 0.75 cu-ft because of Boyle's Law (P1 V1 = P2 V2). They claim they can supply 57 SURFACE breaths, which translates to a mere 14 breaths at 100 ft again due to Boyle's Law. Unless a diver has had harassment drill training where your tank valve is shutoff when you least expect it, that diver will be totally panic stricken and will be hyperventilating and sucking breaths like a Hoover. If that diver knows that they have very little time before the SpareAir runs out, they will bolt for the surface and probably get a very serious DCS hit. A better approach is to get a 13 cu-ft pony bottle and ascend normally to the surface with a safety stop. Still better is to do team diving with a good dive buddy and plan your gas usage using the rule-of-thirds (or other comparable methods), where 1/3 of your gas supply is for heading out, 1/3 is for getting back, and 1/3 is reserve to bring your buddy back with you.

As for the other gear, the safety sausage is a good idea if it is durable and has reflective markings that can also be seen by radar. A length of 10 ft sounds a bit excessive as you would probably have a hard time keeping it vertical (4 or 5 ft should be adequate). These are typically butt mounted by tying two bungee loops at the bottom of you backplate or BCD.

Light sticks are not too effective as they are too dim to be seen at a distance. Also, once you break them, they keep glowing and can not be conserved for selected use. A flashlight would be a better choice. The new ones that make use of LEDs have a very long burn time.

Whistles are good to have and are rather inexpensive. However, don't expect to be heard unless someone is fairly close and not using a motor.

A jon line (buddy lanyard) is convenient in high current environments if you want to tether yourself to the ascent line. This is a good idea and does not take up much space.

I am neutral about the mirror. In full daylight I suspect that a bright orange marker would have a better chance to be seen. At night it obviously doesn't work.

I really don't like mesh bags. They get snagged on just about everything. I have pockets on both my dry-suit and wet suit (you can get glue-ons), which inside have a big bungee loop. Since every single "portable" item I have has a bolt-snap on it. I can reach in my pockets and pull everything out without loosing a single item. I merely unclip what I need, and re-clip what I don't need. Everything is neat, organized, and out of the way until you need it.
 
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