Article: 'Unprecedented die-off' of Caribbean coral

[Aaron]

Unprecedented die-off' of Caribbean coral
Scientists studying Caribbean reefs say bleaching from record hot water followed by disease has killed ancient and delicate coral in the biggest loss of reefs ever seen there.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12082349/from/ET/

 

[Fliger]

But we must certainly need more proof Aaron, before we do anything about it. We need more government sponsored scientists before we initiate any legislation, I mean come on. You know, scientists. Like the head of the FDA. That's MY kinda scientist!

 

[Aaron]

don't get me started...

 

[Fliger]

Surely you are a communist. Take the decaf, you pinko. You mean its not OK that 4% of the world's population contributes nearly 30% of emmissions/gases, and pretends like nothing is going on? You can take that college education and burn it in a refinery.

http://www.livescience.com/environment/ap_060315_carbon_dioxide.html
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060331/ap_on_sc/antarctic_warming_2
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060331...pdvieAA;_ylu=X3oDMTA5aHJvMDdwBHNlYwN5bmNhdA--
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/24/science/earth/24melt.html?_r=1&oref=slogin
http://www.livescience.com/environment/060201_temperature_differences.html
http://www.livescience.com/environment/051116_greenland_melts.html
http://www.livescience.com/forcesofnature/060124_earth_albedo.html

 

[owsi]

The Oceans are the Earths thermostat. Cool temps encourage algae, darken water to increase radiant heating which increases water temps. Warm water kills algae, clears water less radiant heat, thereby cooling the earth. Global warming is a Carl Saginizim, all things will balance out in the end. Yes all indicators lead to the warming theory, but how long have we been keeping accurate records? A few hundred years? People thought the earth was flat a few years ago too. A solar burst will get us before human caused global warming gets us. The Reefs will amaze everyone at how fast they recover, by thier time table, not ours. We always try to put things into our time table not real life, learn from your reef tank, watch it balance and under far worse conditions then the ocean. Don't get me started, lol!

 

[clintrandall]

Balance assumes that human interference is negligible. Sure, our reef tanks will balance if cared for, but if the room the tank sits in steadily rises in temperature and there is a gas leak in the house and the top-off water quality gradually goes down and pumps start to emit higher and higher residual electricity, etc, that balance will not even out in such a way that supports the life within it.

 

[Aaron]

John,

that's great news... then we can continue to polite the air and water to no end... SWEET... F recycling and F conservation and F keeping the earth clean.

you just may be on to something that the experts obviously overlook.


I'm going to put human waste and toxic chemicals in my reef just to watch it balance... Oh wait... you first John!


btw... I was just being sarcastic, not trying to insult anyone.

 

[Fliger]

All things will definitely balance out in the end. Not long after we're gone. I remember when I was in high school science, people were arrogant enough to think that man could end all living things with a few A-bombs, simply by blocking out the sun - the basic building block of life. When I was a science major in college, the study of deep-sea thermal vents uncovered the fact that there is an entire ecosystem of life that is not based on photosynthesis. It would be hard to get to them, if we ever disrupted that ecosystem, we would likely have already ended our own.

But to deny the fact that the rapidly growing population of a species that has changed the planet in the blink of an eye would be a mistake, don't you think? What we have done, just here in the US has not been kind - and our population has remained relatively steady, but with SE Asia (and Africa) growing at such a rapid clip, unchecked ... well, that's kind of scary. Just MHO, but it is entirely possible for humans to do far more damage than ever thought possible.

Trying to keep it respectful.

 

[clintrandall]

The problem we're talking about doesn't reside outside of us, it is our issue. The reality is that regardless of how we feel, we all contribute to it. If I'm not willing to let go of driving everywhere, then I can't get too angry about the pollution that oil-based transportation causes. If I'm not willing to stop buying every new cheaply-built technological gadget or 36 pack of bottled water, then I can't get too angry over the waste that our country builds up. If I want everything as cheap as possible - even if it means it's made under poor working conditions by young and mostly female factory workers - then I can't complain about the fact that we make political decisions over oil and that our corporations won't spend the necessary money to become more earth conscious. We want to maximize our personal budget and we make up the corporations so corporations are doing the same thing - trying to increase income and decrease expenses. It is the capitalist way of doing things. Greater good is not presumed.

The only solution is to change the way we each contribute and then talk about it intelligently and respectfully to try to change it on a bigger scale. The power of our country is that we each have power as consumers to vote with our dollar and support what is good for the world. If we use our consumer power to buy a lot, to get it cheap and to get it now, then we are literally casting our vote for pollution, waste, greed and anything else that we've created.

I don't want to be preachy, I just want us to remember that we are not victims of society - we create it. Little decisions we make eventually transform the way things are done. It's the same reasoning behind propogating corals with the hope that awareness and education and preservation of oceanic reefs will grow. It's inspiring to be able to do something about it!

Clint

 

[Aaron]

Clint,
SO TRUE.... good words!

 

[Fliger]

I agree Clint, but I always hear people say "It starts at home" and I just don't agree. IMO, there are far fewer people in the world that will educate themselves enough - or care enough to make a change with their decisions or pocketbook. The rapid technological "progress" in China will spread throughout Asia. Consumption will exponentially multiply. There are literally BILLIONS of people still living in 3rd world conditions, and they are starting to trade in their bicycles for mopeds and cars. They will drown out every effort that 300 million Americans make.

On a personal level, of course I agree - the car I drive is a small coupe, manual transmission. Almost every decision my family makes is based environmental and health impact. But there needs to be bigger change, globally. And that's not going to happen until the United States takes a stronger stance.

 

[owsi]

I remember working in a pet shop as a kid, we bred mice and rats in old bathtubs in the basement. Well guess what, there was a magic number, if exceded, nature kicked in and solved the problem. Even the best of food and cleaning did not effect this number, crowding lead to still births, parents killing offspring, infertility and birth defects. I am not saying disregard common sence, but lets use common sence and be realistic. Pollution and global warming are at opposite ends of spectrum. So called greenhouse gases causeing global warming are a myth. Your reef tank is a prime example, even the best reefkeeper has a polluted tank if you want to get picky, compare chemistry, gas exchage and water Quality to the Ocean. Clintrandall what you describe is my sunburst theory, not a slight disrubption on the balance, if we are effecting the envioroment it is so small that it will balance before distruction. I am not saying there is no polution, just that it gets blown out of proportion. Look at your Professors, the ones with the most letters after their names and longest tittles, had to have help tieing thier shoe laces in most cases

 

[clintrandall]

Dave, it's true that America is only 300 million, but we are enormous consumers and our economy is driven by mass production of goods. The US as a country is never going to influence the world if the citizens of the US each have to have their own copy of every consumer good out there. In a way, the truth is on both sides because we influence our government by changing the way we do things and the way our government deals with the global economy will reflect that.

John, again I think you're right about balance, but the means to that balance you just described is not the ideal. Even in your "balance", you still have a bathtub full of dead rats, rats full of disease and an overall life cycle much shorter than if balance was maintained from the beginning. Even if we blew open every nuclear plant, spilled all the oil, set off every nuke,etc the world will still find a balance - but it won't be a balance that we could flourish in. I'm not saying "the world will end if we keep this up", but the quality of life of everything on it certainly goes down. No one can argue that pollution doesn't adversly affect us, even if it doesn't destroy the world.

Oh, what a fun Friday forum! )

Clint

 

[clintrandall]

I don't know why it inserted that weird smiley face!

}

 

[Fliger]

It is amazing to me that people still think that what we have done/are doing - is no different than what has happened the 99.99999% of the Earth's existance - pre-modern man. I'm going to align my beliefs with that of the vast majority of people that spend their lives studying it (without a political agenda).

"So called greenhouse gases causeing global warming are a myth." Thanks for clearing that up for me. Are you in the science community to state it so matter of factly.

http://www.livescience.com/environment/ap_051125_greenhouse_gas.html

 

[Fliger]

OK now I must leave this fascinating conversation to get on a hydrogen powered airplane.

 

[Pyrrhus]

What an enlightening thread, It is amazing how ignorant (as in not knowing any better) some people can be regarding these issues while keeping a reef tank. The climate of the earth has been warming for close to 10,000 years since the last ice age, and has really increased its pace in the last 100+ years since the industrial revolution. This increase in global climate is also what caused the banner year for hurricanes last year, I doubt this year will be any different.

It doesnt take a genius to figure out if we dont find a way to help prevent/alleviate the destruction of coral reefs worldwide, we will be legislated out of our hobby except those corals that can be captive propagated. Dont believe it? Take a look at the EU's regulations regarding corals and fish, particularly Euphyllia/Catalaphyllia and Angelfish/Butterflyfish, you might be surprised to see what our friends across the pond cannot keep due to legislation.

FWIW, this was no suprise to MB's who have worked in the area, it was just a matter of time.

Fun Trivia- This will be the 4th mass extinction of tropical coral reefs in the history of the earth, each time it was associated with a warming trend in the climate and each time they bounced back...in a few million years.

 

[Fliger]

And the comparison of our reef tanks to that of the coral reef is in itself, laughable. For one, we do not import many, many, many species of fish/coral - because they need optimal, perfectly steady conditions. We import the hardy ones. And we just replace them when they die. Plus we can easily manipulate the ecosystem. You can not add Superbuffer DKH or Joe's Juice to the Carribean. Its likely not the 1 degree spike that causes the bleaching, the straw that breaks is several links down the order of events.

Reefs, as most ecosystems, are extremely hardy. But the die-offs in the past have been a gradual occurance. Not one that took 100 years to create. This doesn't even touch the mercury and other toxic waste issue that we are now ingesting every time we take a bite of fish. Coastal raw fish is now a no-no until you're a certain age due to mercury levels, and even those acceptable ages have been lowered by the likes of Abramoff (lobbyists), which is why the US is still ignorant of it, yet Japan is extremely aware of it. I've seen far too many pregnant women eating sushi, because we just don't make them aware.

It is definitely no surprise to MB's, I was a MB major 16 years ago and our professors talked about it then. The surprise is that its happening even quicker than most the doomsayers predicted back then.

 

[Fliger]

If you have kids, this is an excellent read.

http://www.pbs.org/now/science/mercuryinfish.html

 

[owsi]

And what caused those other warming trends, dinosaur's? I don't disagree the Earth is warming, just how much we are affecting it. As far as regulations go, we will follow Europes lead, be it right or wrong, they can't even pour old SW down the toilet now. I'm out numbered and under educated for this discusion.I will simply leave it that I feel we are makeing a bigger issue of this then it warrants. Nature will take care of itself, it might not be to our likeing, but it will.