Attempt to color up SPS under LED
- Thread starter Posseidon
- Start date
I've managed to get a standby light until I fix my power supply. This temporary lighting is also LED based but not as powerful. However, it can manage the corals for a while. This fixture is also only LED based, but lower intensity.
So, to recall the status so far:
- My intensities of whites were too high, causing one of my Acro to pale.
- Then had 2 and a half days of lights-out due to technical reasons.
- Now, temporary lights are running quite similar to our discussion so far. It has 1/3 whites and 2/3 blues. And hence throws a more bluish light. All at full intensity gives a 20000K look.
- However, they throw 75-80PAR only (1/3rd compared to the PAR I had dimmed my main lights at).
- I think that after 60hrs of light out, starting off with low intensity is better, especially with new light. It'll give the pale Acro more time to bring up its population of zoox in lower intensity yet bluish lights.
I'll post my observations.
So, to recall the status so far:
- My intensities of whites were too high, causing one of my Acro to pale.
- Then had 2 and a half days of lights-out due to technical reasons.
- Now, temporary lights are running quite similar to our discussion so far. It has 1/3 whites and 2/3 blues. And hence throws a more bluish light. All at full intensity gives a 20000K look.
- However, they throw 75-80PAR only (1/3rd compared to the PAR I had dimmed my main lights at).
- I think that after 60hrs of light out, starting off with low intensity is better, especially with new light. It'll give the pale Acro more time to bring up its population of zoox in lower intensity yet bluish lights.
I'll post my observations.
I can attest to this! I put a PAR meter on my tank and was getting 300 at the highest acro and everything at that level is getting cooked. I have dialed it way back to see what happens. But 300 sounded low still, it is just the PAR level for LED's
mussel and hate
New member
I've seen this opinion bandied about and I remain skeptical. I'd like to see some evidence of damage to corals from white, yellow or green light. I'm familiar with the potential for injury presented by ionizing radiation like UV, and I know that photosaturation can cause the expulsion of symbiotic algae(regardless of spectrum). I've also read the study titled Effects Of Narrow Bandwidth Light Sources On Coral Host And Zooxanthellae Pigments by Dana Riddle published in the November 2003 edition of Advanced Aquarist. However you seem to be speaking of some other damage caused by "garbage spectrum".
I've read the whole Open letter to the LED industry thread and I haven't seen anything there to support this conclusion or to support the thesis that white LEDs are somehow bad. Back in the '80s we grew coral with all kinds of light, some of it very much yellow, green and orange(HPS).
triggreef
New member
just to add, I have an apogee meter. The manual talks directly about leds, and lists the inaccuracies by spectrum's. IIRC the biggest discrepancy listed is 20%
I think that there is a graph in that thread of a 6,500 GE bulb and it did not have spikes as high in the yellow as the white LEDs do - I saw one in some thread, so my apologies if I misremembered. Also, in the 1980s, what we kept is a lot different that what we keep now, at least for me. Most of what I had in the 1980s, nobody would want now... not all, but most. I have no doubt that a 5500 or 6500 bulb might burn most modern SPS a bit too.
There are no studies. If you are looking for some, we won't get them, ever. Most of the studies that we do get are narrow in focus and not really all that applicable to a wide set of hobbyists. Some of the ones that we have gotten over the years have turned out to be bad - thinking of Shemik's DSB studies in particular come quickly to mind. I would rather rely on experience of long-time reefers, but unfortunately not many of them post any more and you really have to know them from years past and still see them in person, text, email, etc. The analysis from PacificSun and Reef Breeders is as close as you are going to get to a study.
In lieu of a study, look at the posts around here and specifically the percentages of whites that people use with their fixtures... 20-60% for most? Most of these tanks are mixed reefs with lower depth inhabitants capable of handling more yellow, red, etc. that the light has not filtered off yet. Most of the locals with 50/50 LEDs keep them at about 25-30% if they have any SPS at all.
In the 1980s, I had a few montis and a pavona for SPS, some LPS and lots of softies. They thrived under 6500 bulbs and some VHOs - these were all shallower species. I don't remember getting any SPS that anybody would want today until 10K bulbs were out... blue tort, bali tricolor, etc. when you had to call on the phone and mail a money order to get some frags. This is a SPS thread and comparing 2013 to 1980s SPS is a joke if the midwest was anything like the rest of the country. If you want to compare leathers, mushrooms, etc. to the 1980s, then the white LEDs are probably really similar to the bulbs back then.
There are no studies. If you are looking for some, we won't get them, ever. Most of the studies that we do get are narrow in focus and not really all that applicable to a wide set of hobbyists. Some of the ones that we have gotten over the years have turned out to be bad - thinking of Shemik's DSB studies in particular come quickly to mind. I would rather rely on experience of long-time reefers, but unfortunately not many of them post any more and you really have to know them from years past and still see them in person, text, email, etc. The analysis from PacificSun and Reef Breeders is as close as you are going to get to a study.
In lieu of a study, look at the posts around here and specifically the percentages of whites that people use with their fixtures... 20-60% for most? Most of these tanks are mixed reefs with lower depth inhabitants capable of handling more yellow, red, etc. that the light has not filtered off yet. Most of the locals with 50/50 LEDs keep them at about 25-30% if they have any SPS at all.
In the 1980s, I had a few montis and a pavona for SPS, some LPS and lots of softies. They thrived under 6500 bulbs and some VHOs - these were all shallower species. I don't remember getting any SPS that anybody would want today until 10K bulbs were out... blue tort, bali tricolor, etc. when you had to call on the phone and mail a money order to get some frags. This is a SPS thread and comparing 2013 to 1980s SPS is a joke if the midwest was anything like the rest of the country. If you want to compare leathers, mushrooms, etc. to the 1980s, then the white LEDs are probably really similar to the bulbs back then.
tdb320reef
Active member
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I have been a Led user since I set up my tank about 2 years ago and I have to agree with JDA that there is some truth in the white leds can damage or don't produce enough of the correct spectrum for sps corals. Over the years I found that minimizing the white light produce the best results. I am putting together a project to reduce my whites in my fixtures about 50%. I think if I could do it over again I would leverage LED for the blues and T5 or MH 10k for the Whites. Just my opinion from my experience.
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I have been a Led user since I set up my tank about 2 years ago and I have to agree with JDA that there is some truth in the white leds can damage or don't produce enough of the correct spectrum for sps corals. Over the years I found that minimizing the white light produce the best results. I am putting together a project to reduce my whites in my fixtures about 50%. I think if I could do it over again I would leverage LED for the blues and T5 or MH 10k for the Whites. Just my opinion from my experience.
Big E
Premium Member
Yup..............I tried to explain this over a year ago but it was largely ignored due to the hype of LEDs.
Some acros cannot regulate or reflect certain spectrums in the range the white LEds put out. The acro just keep taking it in until it either bleaches, dies, or pales out. It's not that the spectrum is wrong it's that there just way too much of it.
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2198810
The RB and blue diodes can duplicate a blue+ bulb fairly well, but the white diodes can't come close to what a coral+ or AB special put out.
Trying to mix RB, blues & whites is a major challange to copy a Coral+ or AB special.
Here's a successful set up over time that's a good model......once he swapped out for whiter bulbs his colors got even more insane.
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2175051
tdb320reef
Active member
I think it is more than hype - People make significant investments and want to believe it is works and for the most part it does. But success is measured at different levels. With a keen eye and a passion for continuous improvement you will reach a point where you know it could be better and reach the boundaries of the light limitations. This is where I feel that I am at now. I have actually considered 4 400 Watt radium's lined with strings for 450NM but phase 1 is to work with what I have. In any event thanks for your feedback. Ill check out the links and keep you'all posted.
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tdb320reef
Active member
I just skimmed the thread and he replaced his MH with all Royal blues and kept his t5's for other colors. I think this is a great strategy and the results are profound.
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Big E
Premium Member
Yes...........he's had some long term success mixing T5s and LED.
I've seen more and more people using T5 to supplement with their LEDs.............it works, it's easy, and doesn't cost an arm and a leg.
If I was buying new lights, I'd just buy a few of the many Sol blues or whatever W/B units that are for sale used, add some T5's and find the combo I like best. It beats the heck out of buying those newest commercial units price wise and it'll rival anything with top colors.
I focused more on the commercial units than what can be done strictly with DIY leds because it's beyond my DIY capabilities. What you have done is at a different level and ahead of the curve of what commercial units are doing.
I've seen more and more people using T5 to supplement with their LEDs.............it works, it's easy, and doesn't cost an arm and a leg.
If I was buying new lights, I'd just buy a few of the many Sol blues or whatever W/B units that are for sale used, add some T5's and find the combo I like best. It beats the heck out of buying those newest commercial units price wise and it'll rival anything with top colors.
I focused more on the commercial units than what can be done strictly with DIY leds because it's beyond my DIY capabilities. What you have done is at a different level and ahead of the curve of what commercial units are doing.
power boat jim
Well-known member
I found the SOL blues supplimented with a custom full spectrum LED from BuildmyLED is working far better then the T5 suppliments. I only run the full spectrum leds 3-4 hrs a day and the tank is looking better then it did under MH and T5.
tdb320reef
Active member
Agreed. When I sold my 8 X 80 Watt t5 fixture winter of 2010 I vowed Id never go back but a few years later I guess it is not completely out of the picture if I could leverage it for the best results.
ridetheducati
20 and Over Club
The key is to feed heavy while maximizing export mechanisms. Healthy, colorful, growing SPS corals every time.
The coral immediately reflects a lot of light, which is half of what we see. True full spectrum light that is reflected looks better than less spectrum. LED fixtures are getting more spectrum, but still are not as full as other types of bulbs... so, less colors to reflect.
The other half of what we see is light that is rejected after it is used in a spectrum with less energy (450 goes in, is used and 520 is spit back out... or whatever).
...so the issue with LED is two-fold, IMO:
1). Some of the spectrum is damaging
2). Limited spectrum is reflected back for less colorful corals
3, maybe). I have absolutely no way to quantify this and I have seen the research that photosynthesis unequivocally stops in UV, but this study was old and with low depth corals from what I saw (and some of it was done with plants), but I just feel deep down in my gut that true UV might be used by lots of SPS just like 400-500 range gets used... the UV is absorbed and lower energy light spit back out as purple or blue. UV does penetrate to the depth of most SPS. Of course, I did not even stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night, so what do I know?
I have gotten laughed off of boards too, but mostly by what I will call the "bio-cube generation" with more internet experience than actual experience. I got to where I did not care about what most people thought about my opinions unless they had a wide breath and depth of SPS under at least one other type of light. Most of the posters who clowned me did not know anything other than their current setup - a few did and I really paid attention to what they said. As I talk with my friends around the country who have been into SPS as long as I have, not a single one of them has seen a tank that had ultimate colors using LED - some of the reefers were fine with this because they liked the other awesome things that LED brings and they just lived with less color. There are a lot of things to love about LED - specifically for me, where they might be in years to come - but ultimate SPS color is not one of them in 2013... most people who have had awesome success with high-end MH and SPS will likely tell you the same thing.
TBD - if you do go to metal halides and the 400W 20K Radiums won't need any 450nm supplementation for your eyes and the coral sure does not need it. If you need dusk/dawn, then that is different.
The other half of what we see is light that is rejected after it is used in a spectrum with less energy (450 goes in, is used and 520 is spit back out... or whatever).
...so the issue with LED is two-fold, IMO:
1). Some of the spectrum is damaging
2). Limited spectrum is reflected back for less colorful corals
3, maybe). I have absolutely no way to quantify this and I have seen the research that photosynthesis unequivocally stops in UV, but this study was old and with low depth corals from what I saw (and some of it was done with plants), but I just feel deep down in my gut that true UV might be used by lots of SPS just like 400-500 range gets used... the UV is absorbed and lower energy light spit back out as purple or blue. UV does penetrate to the depth of most SPS. Of course, I did not even stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night, so what do I know?
I have gotten laughed off of boards too, but mostly by what I will call the "bio-cube generation" with more internet experience than actual experience. I got to where I did not care about what most people thought about my opinions unless they had a wide breath and depth of SPS under at least one other type of light. Most of the posters who clowned me did not know anything other than their current setup - a few did and I really paid attention to what they said. As I talk with my friends around the country who have been into SPS as long as I have, not a single one of them has seen a tank that had ultimate colors using LED - some of the reefers were fine with this because they liked the other awesome things that LED brings and they just lived with less color. There are a lot of things to love about LED - specifically for me, where they might be in years to come - but ultimate SPS color is not one of them in 2013... most people who have had awesome success with high-end MH and SPS will likely tell you the same thing.
TBD - if you do go to metal halides and the 400W 20K Radiums won't need any 450nm supplementation for your eyes and the coral sure does not need it. If you need dusk/dawn, then that is different.
power boat jim
Well-known member
I dont know what anyone could possibly mean when they say "they have never seen the ultimate colors" I dont know who judges what the ultimate colors are and so unquantifiable it seems a worthless statement. I have used every light source available in the 13 years I have kept sps. I have seen very few tanks that ever had "ultimate" color in every coral under any type of light.
I now have the best color across the board under full spectrum LEDs. Of the 42 corals in my tank only 2 are not colored up well and growing. I put very little stock in people saying LEDs cant grow the coral as good as any other ligh source. Some people just have trouble growing sps under LEDs. It has nothing to do with the source. I Dont consider myself any better sps keeper then the next guy and Im using all commercial LED fixtures and I believe some of the corals I have, for lack of a better term have achieved the "ultimate " color.
Saying you cannot achieve high end MH results with LEDs is 100% false.
I judge them for myself, as everybody should. I am sure that you are totally right about your tank. I have seen almost 200 high end SPS tanks from coast to coast (I don't get outside of the US), and I have not seen one with my own eyes under LED that comes close to tanks under Metal Halide and the LED owners that I met will tell you as much.
I also consider the input from some of my friends whose opinions I trust. These guys have named a lot of the corals that we keep and I have also judged them to have the breath and depth of experience at a level where I can quantify and value what they say.
To each their own. Those are my opinions.
I also consider the input from some of my friends whose opinions I trust. These guys have named a lot of the corals that we keep and I have also judged them to have the breath and depth of experience at a level where I can quantify and value what they say.
To each their own. Those are my opinions.
mussel and hate
New member
The "analysis" by Pacific sun and Reefbreeders does not demonstrate that white light is bad for corals. Nor does it demonstrate that yellow, green or orange light is either.
You claim that white light is "garbage spectrum" and injures corals. I ask what kind of injury, can you show me evidence of this claim or is this merely speculation? You state it unequivocally as if it is proven fact.
I'd like to learn more about the hazards of "garbage spectrum". I've been doing this since the '80s and apparently doing it wrong as have Lee, Delbeek, Nilson, Sprung and so many other luminaries. Please help a brother out.
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