Attn: Randy-bio pellets

[nothingfishy]

Hello Randy-

Quick question in regard to bio pellets. I have just started using these about a month ago, and short of a few small blooms, cloudy water, I have not seen any cyano.

I have read in various threads you mentioned the possibility of cyano, which means the pellets were breaking off releasing organics into the tank.

I asked a gentlemen who makes bio pellets, and asked how that does happen. He stated it is possible that a bio mass can grow on the pellet. And if one turns there flow on to high, that mass can break off, bypass the skimmer, and end up on the bottom of your tank, which in turn could feed cyano, just like any other organic food source.

In your experience and talks about biopellets, has this scenario, of how cyano can occur with pellets, come up>? Just curious on your take..

 

[madadi]

in my opinion it happens when nitrated are stripped too low and your tank becomes nitrate limited and not carbon limited. this is just my observation from my experience I have no scientific references to back it up. if you have bacterial bloom its just a matter of time till your tank will be too low on nitrates because you might be using too many pellets for your system. always a good idea to start will less than half recommended dose. maybe even a quarter.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

The bacteria do not (can not) eat the pellets directly. The pellets degrade (hydrolyzing the polymers into monomers or oligomers), releasing organics that bacteria consume. The bacteria may speed up this process by decreasing the pH on the pellet surface, but I'm not certain that they do that.

I'm not sure what causes cyano for those folks who do experience it, but there is no reason to think that organic monomers do not come off the pellets and enter the tank water. Some released monomers will be intercepted (eaten) by bacteria nearby (that is the reason they grow there), and some monomers will escape. The escaped monomers may fuel cyano or other bacteria.

 

[Warner Marine]

The bacteria do not (can not) eat the pellets directly. The pellets degrade (hydrolyzing the polymers into monomers or oligomers), releasing organics that bacteria consume. The bacteria may speed up this process by decreasing the pH on the pellet surface, but I'm not certain that they do that.

I'm not sure what causes cyano for those folks who do experience it, but there is no reason to think that organic monomers do not come off the pellets and enter the tank water. Some released monomers will be intercepted (eaten) by bacteria nearby (that is the reason they grow there), and some monomers will escape. The escaped monomers may fuel cyano or other bacteria.

Randy,

Can you PM me contact information or contact me at jon[at]warnermarine.com? I'd like to discuss this.

 

[madadi]

It would be interesting to put some in sterile water compared to none sterile and see the brake down rate. I don't think they can withstand the heat of my sterilizer or I would have done it already.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I agree a sterile test would be interesting. We do such tests all the time at work with drug delivery polymers, of which the pellets are similar (maybe some are identical to ones we use).

We degrade them at lower pH (~7.4 for drug delivery to the brain).

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

As Jon pointed out to me, I was negligent in not stating that a lot of the bacterial action on the pellet is likely caused by enzymes that the bacteria either release or have on their surfaces. These enzymes help chop the polymer into bits that the bacteria can take up and consume, or they can escape into the bulk water column.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

FWIW, thinking about this a bit more, cyano or other remote bacterial growth might be caused on initial use due to loose organics already present on the new pellet surface, or it may come from release of monomers from enzymatic action before the bacteria really coat the surface. Once it is fully coated, the potential for monomers to escape will be reduced as the monomers have to run the gauntlet of hungry bacteria between the pellet surface and the bulk water.

 

[nothingfishy]

Interesting. I would have loved to a fly on the wall when you two were discussing this.

 

[criticalencore]

Randy I bet you hate autocorrect...

 

[madadi]

It makes sense to rinse them well if that is the case. I bet all that shipping trashing around grinds them a little not sure what is their hardness level.

 

[rwb500]

i am disappointed that randy changed his tune so much after a private conversation with someone who sells biopellets. randy himself uses vinegar, not biopellets, so that should tell us all we need to know about his preferred carbon source. the precisely adjustable dosing of vinegar outweighs the theoretical and probably totally false benefits of biopellets. also, i would rather have a dosing pump and reservoir than another reactor to monitor and refill periodically.

 

[SkullV]

i am disappointed that randy changed his tune so much after a private conversation with someone who sells biopellets. randy himself uses vinegar, not biopellets, so that should tell us all we need to know about his preferred carbon source. the precisely adjustable dosing of vinegar outweighs the theoretical and probably totally false benefits of biopellets. also, i would rather have a dosing pump and reservoir than another reactor to monitor and refill periodically.

Theoretical and probably totally false? Biopellets have been proven to work over and over and over again. I have run them on multiple setups and they have been fantastic every time. I currently liquid carbon dose but started pellets up again 2 weeks ago, in 2 more weeks I'll be cutting out the liquid and going with straight pellets.

 

[madadi]

I don't think Randy is pushing anyone to use pellets. He is just trying to answer, or theorize the OP question regarding the initial cyano outbreak when using bio pellets.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

i am disappointed that randy changed his tune so much after a private conversation with someone who sells biopellets.

All that I changed was the idea that bacteria use enzymes to accelerate the break down of the pellets. After Jon mentioned that he had been told this was the case, I looked it up in the scientific literature and found numerous articles that detailed exactly which enzymes and bacteria are involved or could be involved (not in a reef environment, but in other settings, such as biodegradation in a landfill or implantation into a living body in a drug delivery application). The potential release of soluble organics is unchanged by that enzymatic action, IMO.

It did not change my recommendation for them or not (which I think they are fine but not the only and possibly not the best option).

 

[saltyair]

i am disappointed that randy changed his tune so much after a private conversation with someone who sells biopellets. randy himself uses vinegar, not biopellets, so that should tell us all we need to know about his preferred carbon source. the precisely adjustable dosing of vinegar outweighs the theoretical and probably totally false benefits of biopellets. also, i would rather have a dosing pump and reservoir than another reactor to monitor and refill periodically.

Actually getting info from a manufacturer is smart and good due diligence they developed the product and have the knowledge on how and why it works.
Why the conspiracy theory?
Its being used it works for most that use it correctly if a product is hit and miss it does not last in this hobby

 

[madadi]

"Why the conspiracy theory?" lol

 

[screamingibis]

Randy, you know you got a free trip to Fiji paid for by a Washington D.C. bio-pellet lobbyist. Please take lots of pictures while you're there.

 

[Aqualund]

i am disappointed that randy changed his tune so much after a private conversation with someone who sells biopellets. randy himself uses vinegar, not biopellets, so that should tell us all we need to know about his preferred carbon source. the precisely adjustable dosing of vinegar outweighs the theoretical and probably totally false benefits of biopellets. also, i would rather have a dosing pump and reservoir than another reactor to monitor and refill periodically.

I have over 6,000 gallons among about 40 different tanks between 6 independent systems (coral propagation, breeding, and display) that have all been running bio-pellets for several years residing at whatever nitrate level I desire...currently 2ppm...and I can choose to go higher or lower at my discretion.

It's quite proven.

 

[nothingfishy]

i am disappointed that randy changed his tune so much after a private conversation with someone who sells biopellets. randy himself uses vinegar, not biopellets, so that should tell us all we need to know about his preferred carbon source. the precisely adjustable dosing of vinegar outweighs the theoretical and probably totally false benefits of biopellets. also, i would rather have a dosing pump and reservoir than another reactor to monitor and refill periodically.

I am more disappointed in you, given Randy's stature, credentials and published studies, that you would think someone like Randy could be persuaded without valid reasons.

Perhaps, just as a pulmonologist is not up to speed on the brain as say a neurosurgeon would be, Randy has not studied enzymes in relation to biopellets. And as you can see, unsurprisingly, Randy later said he consulted the literature on it, and confirmed that.

And frankly, a guy who sells pellets would be your local lfs or online supplier. The fact is I went out of my way to contact the designer of the pellets, after purchasing them from lfs. His job isn't to sell them, in fact, he doesn't, you must go through distributors or stores.

Lastly, I am sure the conversation had nothing to do with whether they work or not. Sounds to me, it pertained to theories of how cyano may have come from it.