Bacteria adaptability

Subsea

Premium Member
Considering my embracing natural filtration and the use of bacteria as foundational in establishing healthy, long term captive Eco systems, I wonder at the lack nutrients in my groundwater: Nitrate < 0.01 ppm, Nitrite < 0.1 ppm, Ortho Phosphate < 0.01 ppm, Total Phorsphorus < 0.01, Iron at 0.02 ppm, Manganese < 0.01 ppm.

When I first sent my well water to be analyzed, the Lower Colorado River Authority called me within a day and told me not to drink the water because of bacteria in my well. That is like saying, "Don't breath the air, it has microbes in it". Considering that I have been using this as my source of drinking water for more than 5 years, I was not swayed. I inquired which bacteria and received jibberish for an answer. It is difficult and costly to analyze specific bacteria. The water which I drink goes thru a very expensive RO/DI unit. Because of the volumes involved, I do not treat my other water. For similar reasons, I do not sterilize my water, but more to the point, I think that sterilization has been over used with some bad long term effects (subject matter for another discussion). When I shower, after the squicky clean feel of hot water and soap, comes the unmistakable aroma of H2S. As a deodorant, it does not make the grade. In discussing the aroma and the red stain on the sides of surfaces which receive irrigation, I received some insight on a Nitrate Factory thread on Nano Reef. A pHd Micro Biologist on that thread indicated that my agriculture lab results which showed iron bacteria in very small amounts required further investigation. My resources to fund that endeavor do not justify the economics to invest in the question. His statement that all bacteria require iron reinforced my dosing of iron, which was installed after ready articles written by Randy Holmes Farley on dosing iron for macro algae growth.

As one hypothesis on the low nutrients in my well water, bacteria imbedded in the initial limestone deposits have consumed nutrient levels and have self limited their populations. The idea that marine bacteria from an ancient ocean deposit in the Edwards Plateau limestone formation might exist in The Middle Trinity Aquifer intrigues me. Considering a Feldman research paper in which bacteria were introduced within the matrix of dehydrated Red Sea salt crystals, I continue to wonder at bacteria adaptability to survive.
Patrick

PS. I forgot to add Ward Lab bacteria results: Iron Related Bacteria at 500 CPU/ml. Not knowing much about bacteria measurement, Tibbsy informed me that it was a very, very low concentration.
 
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http://www.microbeworld.org/interesting-facts/microbial-record-holders/oldest-living-microbes


In the fairy tale, Sleeping Beauty went to sleep for 100 years in a castle protected by giant thorns and then was revived by the kiss of a prince. In 2000, scientists told a microbial version of this fairy tale, announcing that they had revived bacteria that had lain in suspended animation for 250 million years, encased in salt crystals deep in the Earth.

(Of course, the scientists did it by putting the bacteria in special nutrients, not with a kiss! See this ancient_sporenews report for the details.) If these scientists' claims are proved true, these microbes will take the prize as the oldest living things on Earth by far.

250 million years old"”Wow, now that's old! The first dinosaurs were just starting to appear on Earth at that time. It would be another 45 million years before Tyrannosaurus rex roared its first roar. The scientists believe that the bacteria got trapped in the salt crystals, which were buried 1,850 feet down under what's now Carlsbad, New Mexico, in the southwestern United States.
 
In the third paragraph of the linked article is the hypothesis on how bacteria can survive so long: spores and cysts.

On a similar adaptive process involving the ich parasite, I questioned the accepted notion of allowing a tank to go fallow for 12 weeks as being a guarantee of eliminating the parasite in the tank. In my first ich outbreak more than 20 years ago, nothing was added to the tank for more than 18 months. Then, after a stress event, the parasite became evident. In reading posted links to ich studies, the hypothesis offered was that the parasite was hidden & imbedded on the host. I think that the more likely scenario is an extended time that the cyst can lay dormat. Because, I will never nuke an established tank again as treatment for ich, IMO, the best treatment is proactive. Ensure that fish immune systems are at peak health.
Patrick
 
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Would be interesting for those scientists to inject some of that ancient bacteria in a living host and see what happens.
No, I do not want to volunteer lol
 
Are there any fresh water bacteria that will adapt to salt water. I am surrounded by lakes and could get lake water quicker than PaulB can catch his pods
 
The only thing in lakes is the Loch Ness Monster. And I even think that is salt water so forget about it.
 
National Geographic News
HomeAnimalsAncientEnergyEnvironmentTravel/CulturesSpace/TechWaterWeirdNews PhotosNews VideoNews Blogs
New Life-Forms Found at Bottom of Dead Sea
Middle Eastern salt lake a "fantastic hot spot for life," scientist says.
Dead Sea life picture: A diver holds a rock from a Dead Sea spring.
A diver in the Dead Sea holds a rock sporting a thick microbial mat.

PHOTOGRAPH COURTESY CHRISTIAN LOTT, HYDRA INSTITUTE

Christine Dell'Amore
National Geographic News
PUBLISHED SEPTEMBER 28, 2011

Dozens of giant craters spewing fresh water and brimming with bacteria have been found at the otherwise barren bottom of the Dead Sea, new research shows.

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In 2010 the first diving expedition to the springs revealed "a fantastic hot spot for life" in the lake, which lies on the border of Israel and Jordan (see map), said team member Danny Ionescu, a marine microbiologist for the Max Planck Institute in Germany.

The team found several craters—each about 33 feet (10 meters) wide and 43 feet (13 meters) deep—at 100-foot (30-meter) depths on the lake's bottom. The craters were covered with films and sometimes surprisingly thick mats of new bacterial species, Ionescu said.

These tiny communities live near thin plumes of fresh water that shoot from undersea springs, whose presence has long been suspected based on peculiar ripples on the Dead Sea's surface.

To reach the springs, divers searched for abrupt drops along the seafloor while contending with very low visibility.

"When you put your head in [a crater] you cannot see anything—you have to have faith and will to explore," Ionescu said.

But once the water cleared near the base of the crater, seeing the plumes jetting from the earth was "a fascinating feeling," he said.

(See pictures: "Prehistoric American Skull Found in Sea Cave?")

Dead Sea Truly Almost Dead

Rivers and streams—most notably the Jordan River—once regularly infused fresh water into the Dead Sea.

The basin has no outlet, so water escapes only by evaporation. As fresh water evaporates, salty minerals dissolved in the water get left behind. Over time, this process made the Dead Sea much saltier than ocean water.

The lake's saltiness means that larger organisms such as fish and frogs can't survive in the Dead Sea. But a high concentration of magnesium also makes it surprising to find microbes in the lake.

"There are other hypersaline environments that are full of microbial life," Ionescu noted. "This, in my opinion, makes our discovery even more surprising."

In the 1950s countries in the Middle East, including Jordan and Israel, cut off the Jordan River's supply to the Dead Sea to gain drinking water. The move severely lowered the lake's water level—a loss that continues by up to a meter (four feet) a year, according to the research team.

Water in the lake, which already sits in the lowest place on Earth, has fallen by more than 80 feet (25 meters) in the past 40 years.

(See "Diverting Red Sea to Save Dead Sea Could Create Environmental Crisis.")

Few biologists have studied the water body in recent years, except following two major algae bloom events that colored the Dead Sea red in 1980 and 1992.

The surface blooms were caused by organisms different than those recently discovered at depth, Ionescu noted.

In general, the "study really changes how we see the Dead Sea, from a biological perspective," said Kelly Bidle, an environmental microbiologist at Rider University in New Jersey who studies bacteria that live in salty habitats.

That's because "seeing this diversity in a place we had never thought was there before" is very exciting, she said.

"Impressive" Craters Unique to Dead Sea

The 2010 expedition mapped an "impressive" network of about 30 craters, a landscape that has no parallel elsewhere on Earth, said team leader Ionescu, whose research is soon being submitted for publication. (Get more information about the research.)

Preliminary analyses of samples collected in the craters suggest that the springs' bacterial communities are very diverse—akin to what you'd find living on rocks in a regular saltwater sea, he added.

The top of the springs' rocks are covered with green biofilms, which use both sunlight and sulfide—naturally occurring chemicals from the springs—to survive. Exclusively sulfide-eating bacteria coat the bottoms of the rocks in a white biofilm. (See marine-microbe pictures.)

Not only have the organisms evolved in such a harsh environment, Ionescu speculates that the bacteria can somehow cope with sudden fluxes in fresh water and saltwater that naturally occur as water currents shift around the springs.

The existence of such adaptable bacteria is an "intriguing" idea that needs more research, Rider University's Bidle said.

As of right now, "there is no such documented species that exists that could fit this bill"—all highly salt-adapted bacteria die when placed in fresh water, and vice versa, she noted.

If "your machinery is wired for high salt, it's very difficult to imagine that you could go from an extreme amount of salt to near-freshwater biology."

Even so, Bidle doesn't totally rule out the idea: "When it comes to inhabiting extreme environments, nothing surprises me when it comes to microbial life," she said.

Dead Sea Diving Not for Everyone

Ionescu and colleagues will visit the underwater craters again in October to study more about the behaviors and life cycles of the newfound bacteria.

It's no easy task—each diver has to carry 90 pounds (40 kilograms) of weight to lower his or her buoyancy, since the sea's high salt content tends to make people float.

Divers will also need to wear full face masks to protect their eyes and mouths. That's because accidentally swallowing Dead Sea salt water would cause the larynx to inflate, resulting in immediate choking and suffocation.

Likewise, the intensely salty water would instantly burn and likely blind the eyes—both reasons why Dead Sea swimmers rarely fully submerge their bodies, Ionescu noted.

"It's a very unique experience," Ionescu said of diving in the Dead Sea, but "I wouldn't recommend it for recreational diving."

Paul/Scotty,
I am not so sure we know everything about what is in our oceans.
Patrick
 
The only thing in lakes is the Loch Ness Monster. And I even think that is salt water so forget about it.

There are some species of macro algae that will live in either fresh or salt water
I believe after asking the question that aerobic nitrifiers can live in fresh or salt water but that would not be adding any variety. I also believe that there are no anaerobic denitrifiers in fresh water.. The reason for water changes to remove nitrates
 
Here is a video of some new life forms.


You go Paul. After you mentioned the flat surfaces for pod collection, I investigated cinder blocks that were part of the support frame in the Big Tank in my greenhouse. It was crawling with pods. I am revamping my business plan from people edible Red Ogo to include live food for reef tank herbivores. With eight 150G Rubbermaid tubs, I plan on different monoculture macroalgae with assorted pods. I will target local market in Austin/San Antoine metropolitan area.
In earlier conversations about making Chevichee with Red Ogo, a chef in Kansas City asked me what did I do with the pods. I told him I was Cajun and we ate everything. I heard his laughter from KC.
Patrick
 
What the heck is Red Ogo?
There is a place all the way out on Long Island that houses live salt water fish such as flounder, fluke and blackfish. They store them in 40' wide outdoor ponds which are about 4' deep. I recently went there and if you just stick your arm in the water it will instantly be covered in large amphipods. I told the owner that the amphipods are worth more than the fish. I took home a bungh of those pods which are probably still reproducing in my tank. That palce is almost 100 miles from my house but I get out there once or twice a year. The next time I go, I will bring some large coolers to fill with pods.
 
Gracilaria Parvispora.

Paul,
I grow it in tumble culture. The Hawaiians call it Red Ogo. It is a big food item in trendy oriental restaurants. In Austin, the locals like it because it is sustainable mariculture. There is one commercial grower of it in Carlsbad, California. Because their water is so cold, it only works in August & September. I need a marketing partner.
Are you interested?
Patrick
 
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Another name for Red Ogo is Tang Heaven Red. Gerald Heslinger of IdoPacific SeaFarm has moved this product for 20 years. We have know each other for 10 years, on and off. He is my mentor in the process.
Patrick
 
Now I remember what it is as I was just in Hawaii. Unfortunately I would make a lousy partner as I am very busy and already am involved in a few things. I am also retired and I retired to make my life easier, That has not been the case as I get up at 5:30 and go to bed at 10:30 but there are never enough hours in the day.
But thanks for the thought that I would make a decent partner, I am honored.
Paul
 
Now I remember what it is as I was just in Hawaii. Unfortunately I would make a lousy partner as I am very busy and already am involved in a few things. I am also retired and I retired to make my life easier, That has not been the case as I get up at 5:30 and go to bed at 10:30 but there are never enough hours in the day.
But thanks for the thought that I would make a decent partner, I am honored.
Paul

Paul
No worries. It is I that am honored. You and I left "blood and guts" in Cambodia & Vietnam. I consider you in a very select group of distinguished men,
Band of Brothers,
Patrick
 
Now I remember what it is as I was just in Hawaii. Unfortunately I would make a lousy partner as I am very busy and already am involved in a few things. I am also retired and I retired to make my life easier, That has not been the case as I get up at 5:30 and go to bed at 10:30 but there are never enough hours in the day.
But thanks for the thought that I would make a decent partner, I am honored.
Paul

That's why I retired too lol
I get up at 6 am and go to bed at 1 am. I've slowed down however.. I only service 6 tanks a day now. Good news is that my cancer cell growth rate has started to slow down.
 
My main concern with adding lake water to my system would be fresh water bacteria attacking and killing useful bacteria,
Should that be a concern?
 
My main concern with adding lake water to my system would be fresh water bacteria attacking and killing useful bacteria,
Should that be a concern?

No worries. I doubt that they would live, but I can't see the harm. If you are interested in diversity of bacteria, start using Red Sea salt.
Patrick
 
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No worries. I doubt that they would live, but I can't see the harm. If you are interested in diversity of bacteria, start using Red Sea salt.
Patrick

Patrick do you have studies to prove that is true. It has been stated on here by Randy and Jonathan not to be founded.
 
Scotty,
I have listed the links at least twice on threads that you have read. In post #2 on this thread is a peer reviewed paper where bacteria imbedded in salt were brought back to life after a 100 million years. In fact you jokingly commented about injecting them in a living host. The second link, which will take me some time to find it, is in one of Ken Feldermans peer reviewed studies which reviewed sources of contamination in bacterial counts.
Patrick

PS Johnathan and Randy are incorrect. I have listed two peer reviewed studies. Is that enough?
 
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