Bad batch of Instant Ocean? Alkalinity through the ROOF!!!
- Thread starter Megalodon
- Start date
what are the calcium, magnesium, strontium, and bromide readings of this bad salt compared to good salt?
It's quite a bit of work to test for all of those things, and since the salt is clearly unsuitable as is, it seems not worth the effort to me. The answers will likely also depend on whether you measure it before, during, or after the precipitation.
Maybe this was addressed earlier in the thread, but what is the buffer system in the salt anyway.
You mean in the bad batch? It seems to me that it almost has to be mostly bicarbonate and some carbonate. And in about the same proportions as in normal salt mixes. That's about the only explanation that is consistent with the pH, the high alkalinity, the precipitation lowering pH, the likely things that one might add by mistake, and the fact that the precipitate dissolved as the pH was lowered even more.
It's quite a bit of work to test for all of those things, and since the salt is clearly unsuitable as is, it seems not worth the effort to me. The answers will likely also depend on whether you measure it before, during, or after the precipitation.
Maybe this was addressed earlier in the thread, but what is the buffer system in the salt anyway.
You mean in the bad batch? It seems to me that it almost has to be mostly bicarbonate and some carbonate. And in about the same proportions as in normal salt mixes. That's about the only explanation that is consistent with the pH, the high alkalinity, the precipitation lowering pH, the likely things that one might add by mistake, and the fact that the precipitate dissolved as the pH was lowered even more.
Just got back from the lfs. They tested the IO mix and have the same value as mine:
sg = 1.025
KH = 14.4 dKH
ca = 425ppm
Is this OK? Can I change my water? Do you think the KH is still high?
Those values look OK to me. The alk is a little high, but not enough to worry too much about. It stays clear when mixed (without a ton of precipitate)?
sg = 1.025
KH = 14.4 dKH
ca = 425ppm
Is this OK? Can I change my water? Do you think the KH is still high?
Those values look OK to me. The alk is a little high, but not enough to worry too much about. It stays clear when mixed (without a ton of precipitate)?
hammerhead
Premium Member
I just checked my fresh IO salt mix. It's been sitting for about 2 weeks. DKH=8.0.
Mine is normal.
Mine is normal.
kstockman
New member
The reason that I ask is that the problem in the bad batch could be inadequate mixing during the preparation of the batch and therefore the batch was not homogeneous. I know that the mixing is a quite complex problem for liquid and I can just imagine what it takes to get a homogeneous powder.
If there are localized spots in the batch that were inadequately mixed, then there could be a localized high concentrations of calcium chloride and sodium bicarbonate/sodium carbonate. In the powder form, this would not be an issue since everything is in the crystalline state. But upon dissolving the calcium would crash out upon mixing and hence the cloudiness. This would settle out as a fine powder everywhere.
IO could be the worst in the bunch of suppliers. Why?? Letââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s think about the amount of money that they make. $35 for 60 lbs, which equates to $0.58/lb. I donââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t know what their raw materials costs are (I could find out if someone would really like to know), but letââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s say $0.20 to $0.30 and that includes the cost of preparing it, then tack on the packing, shipping, advertising, and I would say we are up to at least $0.40/lb and then the distributors have to make some cashââ"šÂ¬Ã¢â‚¬Âmaybe $5/bucket. So maybe IO makes on the order of $5 per bucket. Pretty crappy margins if you ask meââ"šÂ¬Ã¢â‚¬Âthen again I am just guessing. Why does this matter? Well, if IO is the oldest one in the business, then you might be able to assume that they have the oldest equipment and you canââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t afford to toss a bad batch all that often. If you have a bad batch (that is if you even know about it, since one of the operators have to tell you that they screwed up or the equipment did), you are just going to ship it anyway and assume that not too many people will complain. I am not being pessimistic, just realistic. Sh#$ happens all the time when messing with chemicals.
Why would they not know that they have a bad batch? Powders are hard to randomly sample, if they happened to sample the batches.
Does this make you feel good about your salt?
Just a few random thoughts for those that might care.
If there are localized spots in the batch that were inadequately mixed, then there could be a localized high concentrations of calcium chloride and sodium bicarbonate/sodium carbonate. In the powder form, this would not be an issue since everything is in the crystalline state. But upon dissolving the calcium would crash out upon mixing and hence the cloudiness. This would settle out as a fine powder everywhere.
IO could be the worst in the bunch of suppliers. Why?? Letââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s think about the amount of money that they make. $35 for 60 lbs, which equates to $0.58/lb. I donââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t know what their raw materials costs are (I could find out if someone would really like to know), but letââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s say $0.20 to $0.30 and that includes the cost of preparing it, then tack on the packing, shipping, advertising, and I would say we are up to at least $0.40/lb and then the distributors have to make some cashââ"šÂ¬Ã¢â‚¬Âmaybe $5/bucket. So maybe IO makes on the order of $5 per bucket. Pretty crappy margins if you ask meââ"šÂ¬Ã¢â‚¬Âthen again I am just guessing. Why does this matter? Well, if IO is the oldest one in the business, then you might be able to assume that they have the oldest equipment and you canââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t afford to toss a bad batch all that often. If you have a bad batch (that is if you even know about it, since one of the operators have to tell you that they screwed up or the equipment did), you are just going to ship it anyway and assume that not too many people will complain. I am not being pessimistic, just realistic. Sh#$ happens all the time when messing with chemicals.
Why would they not know that they have a bad batch? Powders are hard to randomly sample, if they happened to sample the batches.
Does this make you feel good about your salt?
Just a few random thoughts for those that might care.
I just tested a batch of IO that I purchased through Petsmart and received last week. It was a 200 gallon mix and I mixed the entire contents with deionized water. The alkalinity measures 8.4 dKh at a specific gravity of 1.026 at 75 degrees Fahrenheit, which is typical for this salt. In 17 years I have never had a bad batch of IO salt, which is a statement I can't make about any other salt mix.
Greg
Greg
NewMariner
Reef Tank Aficionado
Your logic here is rediculous......IO is not just a company...IO is a subisdary of Aquarium Systems......who has expanded enough into different fields of the aquarium industry that Im pretty sure they dont have crappy old equipment that breaks down all the time. Think about it......if their equipment is old...it breaks down(especially handling salt for long periods of time). Then they cant make their product to make their ($5) off their bucket of salt. Thus they wouldnt be in business.........
If this was even true...you would have problems with Kent salt as it is also made by Aquarium Systems, and Im sure they would have the same crappy equipment considering they are being run by the same management......
NewMariner said:
Instant Ocean is a brand name. Aquarium Systems is a subsidiary of Marineland. http://www.marineland.com/index2.asp
NewMariner
Reef Tank Aficionado
I stand corrected.........
kstockman
New member
So you are into money delivery for an occupation--that sounds an awful lot like chemistry, doesn't it. Do you know the first thing about commodity chemicals???
Do you think that I am speaking from lack of experience??????? I work for one of the largest commodity chemical companies in the world. I have supported units have reactors from the 1940s (yes built during WWII for WW II).
I said that I made some assumptions, but I bet that my cost estimation is not that far off. I could probably cost it to within 10%, if I cared that much.
If you think that the complexity of mixing solids is trivial, then think again. I bet that some companies have experts just in that field.
A company will run a reactor until they are past there dead date and then run them some more. And that is the big boys--not the small companies like Aquarium Systems.
BTW--Not one person in the pictures of the labs from Marineland had on safety glasses. You would get fired for that in most companies.
I don't really mean to be a PITA for the above comments, well maybe I do......
Like I have said before--Knock all you want, nobody is home.
Do you think that I am speaking from lack of experience??????? I work for one of the largest commodity chemical companies in the world. I have supported units have reactors from the 1940s (yes built during WWII for WW II).
I said that I made some assumptions, but I bet that my cost estimation is not that far off. I could probably cost it to within 10%, if I cared that much.
If you think that the complexity of mixing solids is trivial, then think again. I bet that some companies have experts just in that field.
A company will run a reactor until they are past there dead date and then run them some more. And that is the big boys--not the small companies like Aquarium Systems.
BTW--Not one person in the pictures of the labs from Marineland had on safety glasses. You would get fired for that in most companies.
I don't really mean to be a PITA for the above comments, well maybe I do......
Like I have said before--Knock all you want, nobody is home.
Megalodon
Clowning Around
All I know is their salt is made in the same place.
I want to know more about the salt-making process myself, the machines that make them, and the techniques each company uses to produce the finished product. Can anyone shed some light on this? Maybe Aquarium Systems can pipe up and defend their product.
I should e-mail the Discovery Channel's "How It's Made" with the idea. But salt I guess isn't popular enough with viewing audiences.
I want to know more about the salt-making process myself, the machines that make them, and the techniques each company uses to produce the finished product. Can anyone shed some light on this? Maybe Aquarium Systems can pipe up and defend their product.
I should e-mail the Discovery Channel's "How It's Made" with the idea. But salt I guess isn't popular enough with viewing audiences.
Last edited:
mjag
New member
Hey there
Hey there
Yes I do still have a little left from the bucket. Not much tho. I used a good bit of it on setting my tank up. Thats why i didnt catch if from the start.I tried to call today and they were in a meeting. So I will try again tommorrow, hopefully they can do something for me due to my dead cleanup crew and blenny.
Mjag
I will keep ya posted oh I tried to test the Alk on the old salt I have Well Its not the greatest test kit(seachem) I ran out of alk drops before it would turn yellow. So Alk is very very high
Hey there
Yes I do still have a little left from the bucket. Not much tho. I used a good bit of it on setting my tank up. Thats why i didnt catch if from the start.I tried to call today and they were in a meeting. So I will try again tommorrow, hopefully they can do something for me due to my dead cleanup crew and blenny.
Mjag
I will keep ya posted oh I tried to test the Alk on the old salt I have Well Its not the greatest test kit(seachem) I ran out of alk drops before it would turn yellow. So Alk is very very high
PureSalty said:Where can one find out what salts are manufactured in this factore or plant the the IO salt is made?
Didn't know Kent was a part of Marineland?
Now you're even more confused than you were in your first post. Kent is not part of Marineland. That doesn't mean that they manufacture all of their own products.
There are a lot of different salt mixes made in Mentor, Ohio. Aquarium Systems makes salt mixes in Mentor, Ohio. Ask them how many different salt mixes they manufacture.
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