Bare bottom?

[LouZ]

Kinda late, but gonna give it a shot explaining this-

why dont we disturb a dsb- Disturbing a dsb will disturb the whole biological purposeof a dsb. A dsb has layers. As nutrients work their way to the bottom layers, they get broken down. The denitrification happens deep enough for the bacterias (that have lowest oxygen and light) to grow. Disturbing a sand bed will also realease nutrients, that are working their way to the denitrifying bacterias, into the water column, causing spikes, particularly nitrate (somtimes from close to zero to upwards of 50-100ppm in a few hours) depanding on the age of your sand bed/tank maintanance.

Removing/replacing sections of sand (but not all at once, and not while the tank is full of water) will make sure your sand bed doesnt become saturated (beyond carrying capacity) with bacteria/excess nutrients which will cause much larger issues if the sand bed is disturbed- it happens somtimes...to me- more times than I would like to admit. As long as you are practicing sand bed husbandry, there is no need to worry much about the sand bed over saturating w/ nutrients, and will continue to perform the way they were meant for a long time to come.

Keeping the dsb clean from day one- I dont see how that is possible w/o disturbing the layers necessary for a functional dsb. Cleaning the sand would cause oxygen to get to the deeper layers of the dsb that need to be without. A ssb is another story- they need to be vacumed, on a regular basis (much like a bb tank needs siphoned) or else the nutrients work their way into the sand and get trapped, with no denitrifacation bacteria zones due to depth (light and oxygen).

The process of keeping a dsb clean, and the possibility, because of human and mostly mechanical error (like a powerhead faling, blowwing the dsb to the glass over night) and the maintanance (vacuming) of a ssb are the main reason I have chosen to go with bare bottom tanks- along with the banefites of flow.

But as stated before- with reasearch and tank husbandry- all 3 can work out great, just depends on the needs and husbandry processes of each particular reefer and their tanks. I have run all 3 sucessfully, just the right precautions/maintanance should be researched to keep them functioning.

Each choice comes with its own pros and cons- just gotta figure out which works best for you and go with it properly.

well said. As with any topic....before you say "that just does not work"...
you gota ask yourself.... "did I do it right?"

 

[elegance coral]

Kinda late, but gonna give it a shot explaining this-

why dont we disturb a dsb- Disturbing a dsb will disturb the whole biological purposeof a dsb. A dsb has layers. As nutrients work their way to the bottom layers, they get broken down.

This isn't a one way street. In an undisturbed DSB, a large portion of these "nutrients" will be in solid particulate form. (detritus/rotting, decaying organic matter) As it is liquefied, it doesn't all migrate down to the anaerobic layers. There is no magic force field on top of a sand bed that keeps nutrients like nitrate from escaping. These nutrients are just as likely, if not more likely, to reenter the system as they are to migrate to the anaerobic layers of the sand. As this process takes place, hobbyist typically see a slow and steady increase in nitrate levels of the system. This is due, in part, to the fact that anaerobes don't have access to all the nitrate that's being produced by decomposition. The key to reducing nitrate levels that are produced by this process, would be to limit decomposition. Relying on microbes that are buried under several inches of sand simply doesn't work.

The denitrification happens deep enough for the bacterias (that have lowest oxygen and light) to grow. Disturbing a sand bed will also realease nutrients, that are working their way to the denitrifying bacterias, into the water column, causing spikes, particularly nitrate (somtimes from close to zero to upwards of 50-100ppm in a few hours) depanding on the age of your sand bed/tank maintanance.

If the sand is relatively clean, where are these "nutrients" going to come from? If a simple gravel vac is used, the vast majority of any nutrients, within the sand would be removed from the system. Not simply tossed about the tank.

Removing/replacing sections of sand (but not all at once, and not while the tank is full of water) will make sure your sand bed doesnt become saturated (beyond carrying capacity) with bacteria/excess nutrients which will cause much larger issues if the sand bed is disturbed- it happens somtimes...to me- more times than I would like to admit. As long as you are practicing sand bed husbandry, there is no need to worry much about the sand bed over saturating w/ nutrients, and will continue to perform the way they were meant for a long time to come.

As you pointed out, the important part is to keep the sand from becoming saturated with excess nutrients. If it's the excess nutrients that's causing the problems, why replace the sand? Why not just remove the excess nutrients?

Keeping the dsb clean from day one- I dont see how that is possible w/o disturbing the layers necessary for a functional dsb. Cleaning the sand would cause oxygen to get to the deeper layers of the dsb that need to be without. A ssb is another story- they need to be vacumed, on a regular basis (much like a bb tank needs siphoned) or else the nutrients work their way into the sand and get trapped, with no denitrifacation bacteria zones due to depth (light and oxygen).

Cleaning a sand bed does temporarily disrupt the oxygen gradient of the sand. However, this is not a point of major concern. Aerobic bacteria process large quantities of oxygen. This is why bioballs perform best when kept above the water level, in a highly oxygenated environment. Before we could even complete the cleaning process, these bacteria would be at work depleting the oxygen levels and restoring the oxygen gradient. This process can take place far faster than bacteria can process all the nitrogenous waste produced my the decomposing matter that can be removed by cleaning the sand. In the end, we are much better off by removing this rotting organic matter than we would be by allowing it to rot in our system.

But as stated before- with reasearch and tank husbandry- all 3 can work out great, just depends on the needs and husbandry processes of each particular reefer and their tanks. I have run all 3 sucessfully, just the right precautions/maintanance should be researched to keep them functioning.

Each choice comes with its own pros and cons- just gotta figure out which works best for you and go with it properly.

I agree with this 100%. The problem is that there are those that would have us believe there are magical processes taking place in sand beds. That we can allow rotting organic matter to accumulate in our systems and magical critters will keep it from causing problems. They make it seem so mysterious and complicated that it's easy to blame the hobbyist when it fails. The truth is that it's the methods being preached that are flawed. Not the hobbyist that put their trust in the "experts" to guide them in the right direction.

 

[DJason259]

has anyone tried using pond foam spray to get texture on the bottom of their BB tank?

 

[d0ughb0y]

I am just setting up a new tank and have a closed loop. and no matter how I position the loclines, the sand gets blown away (only have about 1/2" just for looks). I don't really want to reduce the flow on the closed loop, so unless I can find a good position for the loclines, I might end up removing the sand while I still can.

so what is this white plastic you put on the bottom and where can I get it?
my tank is 60 cube so I need 24x24 bottom.

 

[CUZ]

i didn't use anything under any of my rock. my rocks are all drilled and epoxied, kind of a pain for moving minor rocks around but nothing more than a frag disk should fall!

 

[franklypre]

I'm a 2 inch sandbed kinda guy. Of course its 4 inches in the front and BB behind most of my rockwork. I recently removed all sand from my 40b frag tank, I feed lightly and there are no fish. I have noticed a small buildup under my frag rack, it is too heavy to be easily siphoned out and seems to be alot of trouble to move the frag racks. I have a Koralia 1 underneath the rack and I'm thinking of adding another pump. What is the best way to deal with this problem?

 

[WmTasker]

Why hasn't anyone mention a starboard reef :fun4: I have had both types of reefs and I will never have a sand bed in my reef again. Its not that I don't like the looks of sand. I just like a lot of flow and a BB is so easy to keep clean.

Here is a pic of my 120 gallon that ran for 4 years with a starboard bottom (SBB) with no problems.

 

[usefulidiot213]

I don't like the look of BB. It's doesn't look natural. The ocean has sand, and when I look at a BB reef tank I always think it would look better with sand. I have always run a SSB of around 1 - 2 Inches. I keep a diamond goby, and I vacuum it out during water changes. That way it always stays white and clean. I don't understand the flow part. How much flow do you need. I have around 50x in my reef, with no sand storm issues..

 

[Dustin1300]

I agree on the Sand....Naturally you want sand and I hate the looks of a BB. Vacuum the top layer of sand from time to time when you do water changes and once sand gets low throw some new sand in. I know that many arguments arise because of the waste but if you are vacuuming the top layer off routinely then I don't really see it being a valid argument. BB you are just cleaning by the high water flow....Sand you are just taking off the top layer. Either way it is just preference and aesthetically sand looks MUCH better (to me)....

 

[Dont Ask Me]

Weezywe12,

When it comes to bottom media I have run:

1 Crushed coral over under-gravel filters that was SOP in the 1970's

2 Bare bottom (I.E. classic Berlin) with a high capacity protein skimmer

3 Variations of the Jaubert Plenums

4 The DSBs advocated by Dr. Ron & Rob Toonen

5 The EcoSystem "œMud Bed" systems. (These featured macro algae filtration in addition to the "œmud" substrate. These systems were adjunct to the main tank, as part of the sump.

I also experimented with combinations of the above, such as #2 & #5 and #4 & #5.

Based on the above, my next reef tank is going to be a "œ#2 & #5" combination. To me this is the best combination as it allows you to get the high flow rates in the main tank that will keep your SPS coral happy also the benefits of algae filtration and the fauna "œbreeding ground" that an EcoSystem style filter can provide.

Running a high efficiency protein skimmer & algae filtration can be an interesting balancing act as the protein skimmer can "œstarve out" your algae filter. This is highly influenced by your feeding regime. I.E. the amount of import that your system receives.

A picture of one of my past EcoSystem based systems is shown in figure 5 of this article: http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-01/gt/index.php I made the sump/filter from a 55 gallon tank, that was housed in the stand of the main (180 gallon) tank. In this particular system, I did not use a skimmer. The amount of macro algae shown in the in this picture was harvested roughly 2 weeks. The "œmud" can just be seen under the macro algae growth.

Regards,

Scott

I have run a skimmerless miracle mud sump on my 75g for the past two years and have had alot more success than any other methods, good to see positive results from somebody else using this system as i rarely ever see it mentioned on RC.

 

[Mithrax81]

To me, the point of a reef tank, or any type aquarium for that matter, is to try to recreate a little slice of nature in your house. So yeah, I always use a sandbed. Bare bottom tanks might allow for higher flow, easier removal of detritus, etc. But they tank ends up looking more like a science experiment than a little cube of water plucked straight out of the ocean. We all know this hobby is half science and half art, but IMO the science part should be hidden away from the main display as much as possible. :beer:

 

[saltyliving]

i am planning a BB SPS tank and was wanting to have a viewable mangrove biotope/sump w/ a DSB under the display.

Am i gonna run into issues with this. I assume that what you guys are considering a "remote DSB.

Let me know what you think.

Thanks

 

[agsansoo]

In a true BB system there is no sand anywhere. If you choose to run a remote DSB, make sure you replace the sand every now and then.

 

[saltyliving]

In a true BB system there is no sand anywhere. If you choose to run a remote DSB, make sure you replace the sand every now and then.

I understand the concept of a true BB.

But whats the hold up on a remote DSB. what makes it different thank having one in a display.

What about miracle mud for the mangrove biotope??

 

[elegance coral]

i am planning a BB SPS tank and was wanting to have a viewable mangrove biotope/sump w/ a DSB under the display.

Am i gonna run into issues with this. I assume that what you guys are considering a "remote DSB.

Let me know what you think.

Thanks

Mangrove swamp biotopes, and the life they support, require high nutrient levels. SPS, or shallow coral reef biotopes, require low nutrients. It's kinda hard to maintain both high and low nutrients in the same little closed system. If you want both biotopes, why not separate the two systems so that you can give the critters living in each biotope what they need to flourish without jeopardizing the health of the critters in the other biotope?

 

[cichlid9]

When I do upgrade my tank I was thinking of going BB. I agree that sand looks alot better so what do you guys think of placing a sheet plexiglass in the bottom of the tank with a thin layer of sand glued to it?

 

[elegance coral]

When I do upgrade my tank I was thinking of going BB. I agree that sand looks alot better so what do you guys think of placing a sheet plexiglass in the bottom of the tank with a thin layer of sand glued to it?

If the sand is glued in place, it will just get covered in coraline algae. It won't stay white.

 

[cichlid9]

yeah, that makes sense

 

[paullisa51708]

a nice piece of white starboard and then it will get covered with coralin alage thats what im going for let my zoo s just take over the whole floor bed cant wait!!!!!

 

[WmTasker]

a nice piece of white starboard and then it will get covered with coralin alage thats what im going for let my zoo s just take over the whole floor bed cant wait!!!!!

+1 ... Who needs sand when the bottom is covered with zoa's, star polyps and ricordia.