Basement sump room - Advice?

[NewbeeReefer]

Hello everyone. I've been out of the reef scene for a few years now, but I just recently bought my first house, and am itching to get a reef tank setup again.

I am going to put the display tank on the 1st floor. I already framed out a sump room in the basement directly below. I also have an electrician running four dedicated 20 amp circuits for me at this very moment. The surrounding walls where the display tank is going are open right now, so its a good time to run some plumbing. I am trying to think of what I need beforehand, so any ideas and/or advice is appreciated. I am going with something in the 125-180 gallon range.

First off, I have access to a no longer used fresh air duct that goes straight outside on the 1st floor. I want to use this duct to feed fresh air to the skimmer. I am going to cap it off and screw in a hose barb and route a hose or PVC pipe to the sump room before I close up the drywall. I don't know what kind of skimmer I'll be getting yet. What size hose do you guys recommend? 1/2"? 5/8"?

Secondly, I want to run my drain and return lines. What are your recommendations on those? Can I just run two 2" lines, one for the drain, the other for the return? Or should I run two smaller drain lines maybe, in case one ever clogs up? What about the returns? I don't want too much turnover from the return pump (to avoid bubbles), and I plan on using Tunzes for flow.

Thanks!

Dom

 

[billdogg]

i would run 2 x 1.5 or 2 x 2" for drains. the return can be whatever size will fit the pump you are going to use. ALWAYS have more drain capacity than return flow could possibly put out.

 

[tgunn]

If possible, seal off the basement sump room as well as you can. In my former 140g setup I had a basement fish room. I sealed off the fish room from the house and put an HRV air intake into there to suck the humidity out of the house. I also had a vent line hooked up to my aquarium canopy that sucked air from the canopy and dumped it into the fish room where the HRV vent would suck it up. This really helped keep the heat and humidity contained.

Protect the walls VERY well. Despite multiple layers of latex paint on green drywall, the persistent salt spray from my sump bubbled the paint and ate off the drywall paper in a few spots around the sump. In retrospect I should've used a sheet of thin acrylic around the area the sump was to protect the walls.

For drains, definitely go for two drains, just in case. In my system I used two 1 1/2" drains. I used a single 2" return line from the sump, but a 1 1/2" line would have been more than enough.

My setup had the flaw of WAY too much sump turnover; probably around 1500-1800GPH. If I was still running it I'd have dropped that down to maybe 400-800GPH.

Tyler

 

[NewbeeReefer]

Thanks for the info so far guys.

I'll probably go with two 1-1/2" drains, and a single 1-1/2" return for the sump. I can downsize the return line to whatever size the pump output requires.

Any advice on that skimmer air intake tubing? Does it matter really? I think 1/2" line would suffice.

Also, any recommendations on a good return pump? I'm estimating 12-15 feet of head. Reeflo maybe?

 

[NeveSSL]

Match up the size of the return with the size output from your pump. If you size it larger than your pump, you'll be putting unnecessary head pressure on your pump and will be losing flow for reason.

For return pumps, check out the Reeflo and Panworld pumps.

Brandon

 

[tgunn]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15052990#post15052990 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by NewbeeReefer
Thanks for the info so far guys.

I'll probably go with two 1-1/2" drains, and a single 1-1/2" return for the sump. I can downsize the return line to whatever size the pump output requires.

Any advice on that skimmer air intake tubing? Does it matter really? I think 1/2" line would suffice.

Also, any recommendations on a good return pump? I'm estimating 12-15 feet of head. Reeflo maybe?

For a return pump, I'd suggest something like a Gen-X PCX-40, or a smaller Blueline, Panworld or Iwaki. Those pumps work well for high head and can be gotten in pretty low power, low flow versions.'

For the skimmer intake tubing I'm sure 1/2" would be more than enough.

Tyler

 

[tgunn]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15053069#post15053069 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by NeveSSL
Match up the size of the return with the size output from your pump. If you size it larger than your pump, you'll be putting unnecessary head pressure on your pump and will be losing flow for reason.

For return pumps, check out the Reeflo and Panworld pumps.

Brandon

Sizing the pipe larger than the pump's output will not add head pressure. The head pressure you're worried about is the difference in height between the water level in the sump and the water level in the tank.

It's always a good idea to upside the plumbing from what the pump uses. By using larger plumbing you're reducing turbulence in the pipes and making it easier to flow the water through the pipe, thus you get more flow. If you play around with the head pressure calculator on here, you can see this effect quite dramatically.

Tyler

 

[Whaledriver]

consider spa flex ptpeing for your runs to and from the sump. This adds some flexability and reduces the number of restrictive fittings. Remember to use the right glue.

 

[NeveSSL]

Would not a larger diameter pipe be more head pressure considering its much more water for gravity to push back down against the pump?

Brandon

Edit: Sweet... 5000th post... heh.

 

[Whaledriver]

Has anyone created a reliable skimmer that uses the gravity of the water to make the foam?

 

[Superstretch18]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15052990#post15052990 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by NewbeeReefer
...Any advice on that skimmer air intake tubing? Does it matter really? I think 1/2" line would suffice.

I would think twice about having an airline from outside directly connected to the skimmer. The last thing you want is exhaust from a lawnmower, fertilizers, pesticides, cleaners, or anything else out of your control from getting injected directly into your tank...

While you are taking care of the plumbing, consider adding a slop sink. Can't tell you how handy having one close to your sump is...

 

[NeveSSL]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15053182#post15053182 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Whaledriver
Has anyone created a reliable skimmer that uses the gravity of the water to make the foam?

Yes, they have. I think they're called downdraft skimmers.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15053206#post15053206 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Superstretch18
I would think twice about having an airline from outside directly connected to the skimmer. The last thing you want is exhaust from a lawnmower, fertilizers, pesticides, cleaners, or anything else out of your control from getting injected directly into your tank...

While you are taking care of the plumbing, consider adding a slop sink. Can't tell you how handy having one close to your sump is...

Many people run airlines to their skimmers to help raise the pH of their tanks. Its a wonderful idea and works really well for little money. The key to it is running a tightly packed unit of active carbon to filter out all of the potential pollution and toxic substances that could get in your tank.

Brandon

 

[Superstretch18]

Why would air injected from outside make the pH higher than air from indoors?

 

[NewbeeReefer]

The sump is going to be in a shared room with the water heater. I've done some research, and it seems some people with the same setup suffered from low PH issues until they ran a fresh air intake to their skimmer. I have a brand new power vented water heater that blows the CO directly outside. The low PH might not even be an issue. I'll run the skimmer first without the fresh air line and see what happens.

Unfortunately there is no way for me to avoid the sump and water heater being in the same room.

Thanks for the advice so far everyone!

 

[NeveSSL]

It won't always, but usually will. It depends on how tightly your dwelling is sealed, so to speak.

I will let Dr. Randy Holmes-Farley explain it... check this article out:

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-09/rhf/index.php

More specifically, I'll copy and paste this from that article:

Low pH Due to High Indoor Carbon Dioxide Levels

High indoor carbon dioxide levels can also lead to low pH problems in many tanks. Respiration by people and pets, the use of un-vented appliances burning natural gas (e.g., ovens and stoves) and the use of CaCO3/CO2 reactors can lead to high indoor carbon dioxide levels. The level of carbon dioxide can easily be more than twice that of exterior air, and this excess can substantially lower the pH. This problem is especially severe in newer, more airtight homes. It is unlikely to be a problem in homes like mine where the wind can be felt blowing around old window frames.

Many aquarists have found that opening a window near the tank can significantly raise the pH within a day or two. Unfortunately, those aquarists living in colder climates cannot comfortably open windows in the winter. Some have found it useful in these situations to run a pipe or tubing from the outside to the air input of a skimmer, where fresh, exterior air is rapidly mixed with the tank water. Be advised, though, that if the aquarist happens to live in an area where insecticides are periodically sprayed for mosquito control (such as in many metropolitan areas of the South), it is important to place some type of carbon filter at the air intake to prevent these chemicals from entering the aquarium.

Finally, the use of limewater in these situations can be an appropriate solution. Limewater may be especially effective in this situation because the tank would be less likely to experience the undesirably high pH that sometimes accompanies limewater use. While limewater is a common aquarium alkalinity supplement most potent at raising pH, other high pH additives would also suffice. Supplements based on carbonate, for example, would be very useful in this situation, while bicarbonate would not be. As a commercial example, the original B-ionic would be better than the newer version (Bicarbonate B-ionic). For home brews, washing soda (sodium carbonate) or baked baking soda would be better than normal baking soda (sodium bicarbonate).

Brandon

 

[Superstretch18]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15053267#post15053267 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by NewbeeReefer
The sump is going to be in a shared room with the water heater. I've done some research, and it seems some people with the same setup suffered from low PH issues until they ran a fresh air intake to their skimmer. I have a brand new power vented water heater that blows the CO directly outside. The low PH might not even be an issue. I'll run the skimmer first without the fresh air line and see what happens.

Unfortunately there is no way for me to avoid the sump and water heater being in the same room.

Thanks for the advice so far everyone!

Ah, it all makes sense now.

 

[Hop]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15053176#post15053176 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by NeveSSL
Would not a larger diameter pipe be more head pressure considering its much more water for gravity to push back down against the pump?

Brandon

Actually if you run the numbers through the headloss calc, you will see that the friction loss is decreased with larger pipe, resulting in higher flow rates with oversized plumbing. I'm sure there is a break-even point, but if you run 1-2 sizes bigger than the pumps output, you will see better numbers in relation to flow

 

[Hop]

Having run a dedicated fishroom for many years the biggest advice has already been touched on... Ventilation and humidity control. Do a lot of research in these areas as they can break the bank, or ruin the whole house

 

[NewbeeReefer]

I ran a dedicated 4" PVC pipe directly outside. I plan on putting a ventilation fan on it, either a Fantech or a Panasonic.

The walls will probably be covered in FRP, or greenboard with latex paint.

 

[NeveSSL]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15053320#post15053320 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Hop
Actually if you run the numbers through the headloss calc, you will see that the friction loss is decreased with larger pipe, resulting in higher flow rates with oversized plumbing. I'm sure there is a break-even point, but if you run 1-2 sizes bigger than the pumps output, you will see better numbers in relation to flow

Ahhh... ok, Hop. Thanks.

Brandon