Basement Sump

[dbartkow]

I am putting a 110 gallon tank just off our newly remodeled kitchen and I need a little help with the basement sump plumbing. I need to drop down about 6 feet and then travel across our finished basement into the unfinished side. It is a span of about 20 feet.

I just did a head loss calculation on the return pump and came up with the following:

Total losses are 22.91 feet of head pressure, or 9.9 PSI. with a flow rate of 1406 GPH

I used the default Blueline HD 100 pump in the calculation. What flow rate would be ideal at the output of the return? My tank will be mixed, but mostly LPS. I will also have at least one MP40 in the tank for circulation.

Any suggestions for a quiet pump would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Dave

 

[dbartkow]

Not to be a nag, but I really do need some help here and would appreciate any input people have to offer. Pumps are something I really don't know anything about. I also don't know how much flow I would be ideal from my return.

If you have any recommendations or recommended research I can do I would really appreciate it.

Thanks,
Dave

 

[dbartkow]

Actually,
I was able to figure some more out after I found some of the calculators on this site. My overflow is a standard back corner overflow on a Perfecto tank. The length of it is 12 inches. So using this calculator:

http://reefcentral.com/index.php/drainoverflow-size-calc

I kept typing in different flow values till I got a recommended overflow of 12 inches. This is what I can up with:

Using the following input parameters

Gallons per Hour = 800
Drain and Overflow sizes are calculated as

Recommended minimum drain pipe diameter = 1.17 inches
Recommended minimum linear overflow size = 12 inches

So if I am doing this right (please confirm), I should look for a pump that will provide 800 gph after all the head pressure. Is that right?

Thanks,
Dave

 

[hebygb]

IMHO, return flow and circulation are two different subjects. Once your system is set up with the basement sump, the amount of water that leaves your tank is the same as what goes into your tank. To be clear, as long as your drain in your overflow can accomodate the water coming in, you will have no problem. The major concern should be that if there is a power outage, your sump can accomodate the headloss as well as all of the water in the plumbing from overflow to sump. So based on your calculations, as long as your drain can handle 800 gph, then match/adjust your return pump to not exceed that.

When it comes to circulation, I would totally rely on the vortech(s). That way your display will always have circulation even if your return pump is offline (for whatever reason and assuming you have a battery backup).

 

[Lanimret]

I have something similar, I used a Reeflo Blackfin with the 6000gph upgrade impeller. It serves 2 100g tanks about 15ft of head with around 1000gph each.

I setup a closed loop with an Eheim 1262 (dead quiet) so there would be no visible equipment in the tank, it adds another 1000gph with an oceanmotions wavemaker.

 

[der_wille_zur_macht]

To be clear, as long as your drain in your overflow can accomodate the water coming in, you will have no problem. The major concern should be that if there is a power outage, your sump can accomodate the headloss as well as all of the water in the plumbing from overflow to sump. So based on your calculations, as long as your drain can handle 800 gph, then match/adjust your return pump to not exceed that.

This.

You need to determine drain capacity based on the hole sizes for the standpipes, NOT the linear size of the overflow weir (which really is NOT a limiting factor in our applications - IMHO the calculator is a bit misleading in this respect).

So, tell us your drain bulkhead sizes, and we can help you decide what your flow target might be. Then, you can pick a pump based on that target.

 

[dbartkow]

Thanks for your help everyone! I have the standard plumbing Perfecto plumbing kit that came with my 110. It has a overflow standpipe that is 1.5" and a return pipe that is 1". Is that enough info for you to work with?

 

[der_wille_zur_macht]

What sorta standpipe are you using on that 1.5" drain? 800 gph might be marginal on a typical open channel (i.e. Durso) standpipe but probably not impossible.

 

[dbartkow]

I believe it is a durso (shaped like an upside down "J" )

 

[dbartkow]

The major concern should be that if there is a power outage, your sump can accomodate the headloss as well as all of the water in the plumbing from overflow to sump.

hebygb,
You bring up some great points. I am not sure i totally understand this one though. If the power goes out, I understand that the sump will need to accommodate all the water in the plumbing (both return and drain). However, what do you mean by sump must accomodate the headloss?

Thanks,
Dave

 

[Vinny Kreyling]

Those dimensions are inside pipe diameter or outside?
Makes a difference.
Usually standard overflow piping is 1" inside diameter and flows roughly 600Gallons /hour.

 

[hddtran]

I think with the head lost 22 feet. could you go with a mag 24 perhaps for return pump

 

[dbartkow]

Here is an image of the pipe.

The pipe is 1.5" inside diameter. However, the little pipe in the bottom that goes into the bulkhead is only 1" inside diameter. Hope that helps. Let me know if you need any other info. I really appreciate everyones help!

Dave

 

[Vinny Kreyling]

Flow will be limited by the smallest ID therefore 1" and roughly 600GPH.

 

[dbartkow]

This seems like a really bad setup to me. Shouldn't the overflow be larger than the return? With that narrowed down section, they are essentially the same.

 

[Vinny Kreyling]

Willing to bet the return is 3/4" pipe inside.

 

[dbartkow]

This.

You need to determine drain capacity based on the hole sizes for the standpipes, NOT the linear size of the overflow weir (which really is NOT a limiting factor in our applications - IMHO the calculator is a bit misleading in this respect).

So, tell us your drain bulkhead sizes, and we can help you decide what your flow target might be. Then, you can pick a pump based on that target.

Hi Vinny & der_wille_zur_macht,
Thanks for your help on this. I was wondering if you had any thoughts about the overflow going down to 1" (same as the return line)? Is this a flood hazard? Also, I'd like to hear more about 600 gph number for a 1" pipe. Is this some type of standard? If so, can you direct me to a chart or something of flow for the different pipe sizes?

Thanks,
Dave

 

[dbartkow]

Okay, I guess you are right. On the top of the return pipe is an elbow that goes from 1" to 3/4" threads. Then the lock line screws into that. So it is smaller. Does that sound okay now? Is 600 gph still my magic number?

Thanks!
Dave

 

[der_wille_zur_macht]

That is effectively an open-channel Durso style standpipe. You'll get a dozen answers for what the flow limit is if you ask a dozen different people. The thing is, it'll work over a wide range of flow rates, pretty much right up to the rate it'll do under full siphon, but it'll likely be LOUD and/or unreliable under a large portion of it's operating range. Different people have different tolerances for noise - hence different answers. If you really just have the single 1" hole as a drain and are going to use that standpipe design, you're probably best off targeting something less than 600 gph. Probably more in the 400 gph range. But again, you'll get different answers.

Is the bulkhead for the return line inside the overflow box? If so, you've got two holes in the overflow (for a 1" and a 3/4" bulkhead) - I'd suggest using BOTH for the drain, and running your return line over the back/side wall of the tank, instead of through the overflow box. This gives you more flexibility, more drain capacity, more reliability (you won't have a flood from a single blockage), and the opportunity to build a DEAD silent drain system. Search on here for Herbie drain systems to get some ideas.

 

[dbartkow]

Both bulkheads are identical 1" bulkheads. The overflow just gets squeezed down to 1" before the bulkhead. Yes, both holes are inside the overflow.

I am trying to get this tank up against a wall as much as possible so that it doesn't stick too far out into the room cutting off the flow of traffic. That is why I really wanted the return line coming in from the bottom. But, I also want the tank to be as quiet as possible. So I guess that is the tradeoff.

The tank is going to be encased in cabinets and bookshelves on both sides. Maybe I can run the pipes up through the bookcase and then over it up with something. Here is an image (my tank is not bowed like this though).

Another option might be to run the pipe up through the back wall. But, it is an exterior wall. Can I do that?

Dave