BC suggestions..?

[SeaJayInSC]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14084260#post14084260 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Kenmx10
Hey SeaJay, Take it easy. This wasnt an attack on you personally.

Nor was mine.

Hey, if I came across too strong and/or offensively, please excuse me - I'm better with the ocean than I am with people. None of what I said was directed at you personally, so I don't see how it could be construed as such. That said, I know I come on strong about things I'm passionate about, and underwater life support pretty much tops my list of passions.

So if I said things that offended you, my apologies. I promise in real life I'm really amicable.

Everyone,s entitled to their own opinion here.

Of course - that was the point. The guy was soliciting opinions, and I shared mine. Actually I toned it down a bit before sharing - apparently not enough.

And knowbodys trying to take yours away.

Nor yours. "Free to disagree," as far as I know.

I see how you dissected everything I had to say and crapped on every last word. . Nicely done..LOL ..Oh, by the way welcome to Reef Central.

Maybe that was the problem. I'm doing it again here, aren't I?

Oh - and thanks for the "welcome." Looks like a pretty cool place.

What I wrote wasn't meant to "dissect" and "crap on." I was just replying. Hm. Maybe that's why responses to my posts always seem too aggressive.

I bet my posts would come off a lot less "crappy" if I didn't hit the quote button first.

Also, sorry we disagree on the snorkel. I just listed some reasons why I liked It . Sorry we dont agree about it though. I will respect your opinion.

Likewise. Hey, dive like you want, man...

Also,regaurding the MFG'swarranty. Not my opinion, Im just stating the facts. Here was your comments , The links below are the actual policies for some of the major equip MFG's.

Quoate"here is the warranty disclaimer from the MFG, Not the LDS. Equipment sold online is void of any warranty. And they do stick to their policy.
http://www.aqualung.com/us/content/view/265/
http://www.aqualung.com/us/content/view/171/255/
http://www.scubapro.com/media/1269033/consumeralert.pdf

Yes, I'm aware of those manufacturer's claims.

However, if the sale takes place within the confines of the United States, then regardless of their policy, the item sold new automatically comes with an implied warranty - that is, the courts recognize that if a manufacturer sells a buoyancy compensator, that it should operate in a manner to make it an effective compensator of bouyancy. If it's a scuba regulator, by law it should regulate the airflow of scuba equipment. If it fails to do so, then the consumer is entitled to a refund or replacement... Period. It's called "implied warranty," and can be read about here: http://law.freeadvice.com/general_practice/guarantees/implied_warranties.htm as well as many other places... Do a Google search.

Practically speaking, many retailers have both an online presence and a storefront... So how is a manufacturer supposed to know whether you purchased the item standing in their store or on the phone or internet? The idea of avoiding warranty obligations based on the method of sale is not only silly, but completely unenforcable.

Specifically speaking, there are many online retailers that ARE "factory authorized," and thus brag about their "full manufacturer's warranties." Check out http://www.scuba.com/resources/warranty_info.asp . Leisurepro, probably the largest online retailer of scuba gear, is NOT "factory authorized" by many of the manufacturers they represent... Thus, they give an "in house warranty" themselves, which, having used it more than once, I can personally attest to the vast superiority of their "in-house warranty" over the manufacturer's own warranty.

...Look, here's the point I'm trying to make - don't let the LDS (especially Charleston Scuba) dupe you into paying a ridiculous amount of money for something by telling you that somehow, buying from them is going to get you some kind of special treatment. That's just BS.

Many people like to try and get in the business and make alot of money and their not Authorized dealers. And the MFG's turn them down for one reason or another. So they buy their murchandise online(Gray market equip) and sell it to you as new gear with a full MFG's warranty. Misleading the customer, causing problems for them when it comes time to get their annual Inspection. then the customer finds out he has no warranty, Its too late, and there's nothing he or she can do about it.

Really... Is that what happened to you, or is that the story that the LDS is telling you?

But the seller doesnt care, he got paid and thats all that he cares about. Or they just do the inspection themselves, and charge you for that too, even thought they havent been properly trained and have been dissapproved by the MFG.

I could tell you about the experiences I've had with some "factory authorized retailers" working on my regs... One ("factory authorized") actually handed my regs back to me, along with a separate part and said to me, "I couldn't find where this went." No kidding. For that I was charged $110 for labor... Parts were "under warranty," since I'd purchased the reg set from them.

Conversely, some of the backyard shops I've been to around Ocala, who aren't "factory authorized" by anyone, have done the best jobs I've seen - with real equipment like magnahelics and ultrasonic cleaning machines... And wrenches that fit... And Cristolube instead of silicone... And clean, sterile workbenches... And so on...

Another "factory authorized" shop I know does annual service in a tupperware container full of Simple Green - no ultrasonic, no new parts. I won't mention names.

"Factory authorized" means absolutely nothing except that the manufacturer has got them somehow telling their clients that the internet is bad, and that paying double for something is good.

Anyway, Everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

Absolutely! However, this is my opinion based on the years of experience I've had with many different shops. According to your post above, you only frequent one shop, who apparently is telling you that, "us good, internet bad." That's hogwash, and whether you know you're doing it or not, you're propagating the false notion by expressing it as "your opinion."

And have the right to make their own decisions. Im not a dealer and dont make money from this whatsoever. If someone is willing to assume unnecessary risk with their life, That fine with me ,as long as thier not on my boat. Once again, the only reason I responded to this thread was because there are newcomers here looking to buy equipment. And didnt want them to find out that they have gray market equipment with no warranty whatsoever. And cost them alot of money in the long run over service parts.

Fair enough. I should probably warn them, then, that the moon is going to fall out of the sky tomorrow and that we're going to wake up with the world upside-down, too... I could cover those entire statements by calling them "my opinion" and telling others that "their opinion is valid too" when they disagree - but let's be straight here... You can pretty much bank that the moon will still be in the sky tomorrow, and alas, gravity will still work in the morning... And that any shop that tells you that if you buy the exact same brand of stuff from another shop it will probably fall apart and that you'll have no recourse - is BSing you. i know - I've done it for years, just as I've seen the moon in the sky for years.

"My opinion?" Sure - call it what you want.

Also SeaJay, Im sure you are very qualified and have no problems swimming whatsoever , in rough sea, with heavy current , for long times ,loaded down with equip. Its very easy to get confortable in the water when its your profession.
Some people are new to the sport, out of shape, not good swimmers and tend to struggle at the surface when the water starts to get alittle rough.

I'm flattered, but no, I'm not Superman - and no, it doesn't require superman-like skills to avoid pointless and trivial gear. I don't take a motorcycle helmet with me scuba diving, because when I'm diving, I'm not riding - and when I'm riding, I'm not diving. Same for snorkeling - when I'm snorkeling, I'm not scuba diving, and when I'm scuba diving, I'M NOT SNORKELING.

I love snorkels - they're great WHEN I'M SNORKELING.

Ive seen people reject their regulator and start sucking in water as their gasping for air. Once you tell them to put their snorkel in their mouth , they are fine.

Once you tell them to put their regulator in their mouth, they're fine too.

And you can safely assist them back to the boat.

Dude, time to get new buddies.

Not only did it help them out, but it kept me from having to jump in and drag someone back to the boat. But once again , Its just my opinion with my experiences. Some people agree and some dont. Hey, but thats ok isnt it?

Of course. For the same reason you're entitled to your opinion, I am as well.

I do agree with you on many things you say, Because I was raised in the water as well. I would much rather freedive on a shallow reef all day long than a few hours with gear.
However, this thread here was for new people looking for advice and gear, people that dont have the Knowledge, and experience and maybe not the same health conditions as you and I do. So dont take this thread as a personal insult to you or your experiences or abilities. If you go back and read my post you will see it wasnt directed to challenge your opinions.

Likewise! I couldn't agree more - my posts weren't directed as a personal insult to you or your abilities. My experiences simply disagree with yours. No offense meant or taken.

It started out as a new person looking for advice on a BCD. And different opinions on a snorkel, and if MFG's warranty covered online equipment(Grey market equip).

Online does not equal grey market equipment. Visit a Diver's Direct dive shop and stand in the middle of the store and use your cell phone to order a regulator from them. According to what you've been told by Charleston Scuba (who apparently has directed you to two specific manufacturer's websites), your new regulator will not be covered under the manufacturer's warranty. I'm telling you that's false information, propagated by an entity trying to justify why you need to buy from them at twice the price.

I hope your business is doing good in this tuff economy.

Thanks. It's doing great - service-based maintenance companies always thrive in slow economies. I also wish your business well. (?)

As far as the offer to go diving here in a couple of weeks. I usually dont turn down an offer to go diving, But Im not a cold weather person and dont go here in the winter.

76* today on the water... Sure, the water's chilly, but my grey-market O'Neill Sector 7 wetsuit that I purchased on the phone from Austin's Dive Center in Miami, FL (you should see their shop) kept me pretty warm.

Come to think of it, I specifically asked Sally there at Charleston Scuba to order me one of those, since she's an O'Neill "factory authorized" dealer. She told me that she couldn't get one for me 'cause she had to order it a year in advance... So if I could please order (and pay for) the wetsuit I'd need NEXT YEAR, she could help me.

...So I called O'Neill directly (found their number on the "voids warranty" internet), who recommended Austin's. Austin's price was nearly half Sally's, and they could deliver overnight... So I bought five of them, right on the "voids warranty" phone. Thanks, Austin's.

In the past year alone, I think I've purchased a dozen or more O'Neill items from them, and several items that - get this - are made by the companies that you cited in your links above. These items were purchased on the phone. I've never been to their shop, but their website has real pretty pictures of it.

Do you think my warranties are void? Do you think that the things I've ordered are somehow "grey market?" Should I run to Charleston Scuba and order another wetsuit from them, a year in advance, at twice the price, because I "want to know where my gear comes from" when I'm at 100'?

I don't know what else I can say to convince you that you've been BS'ed, my friend.

I hope you have a good trip though. maybe I'll see ya around when the water gets a little warmer. I'll bring an extra snorkel just incase. ..LOL. Sorry , couldnt resist. [/B]

Hahahahaahaa... That's funny. So you're asking me to go snorkeling with you?

Can I bring my scuba tanks - and my grey market gear?

 

[Kenmx10]

Thanks SeaJay. Im glad you had a good day. Cant wait till the water gets back around 80.

We probably agree on alot more than we disagree on , or we wouldnt both be diving , or on this sight. I wish I could spend everyday in the water like you do. I do buy alot of my gear online too. Mostly from Leisurepro. They have some of the best prices on wetsuits around. Certain Items like fins and lights you pay 3 times as much locally. The things I like to buy locally are BCD & Reg. The things that require servicing for warranty issues. And a mask. I hate having to send one back because it wouldnt seal.

Thanks for the info on Austin's In Miami, I'll check them out. I need to get down that way soon and harvest some rock. I'll look them up and tell them you sent me. Usually I hit Divers Direct in West Palm on my way to the Keys or Bahamas. They usaully have what I need. But, They can be expensive too on alot of things.

Do you do any rebreather or Tech diving? Im interested but not sure if I want to assume the liability.

Oh, Good comeback. You can come snorkeling with me anytime.

 

[SeaJayInSC]

Replying without the quote button - I'm going to try your idea and see if I come off a lot less offensively.

Yeah, it sounds like we DO agree on a lot more than we disagree - debating is fun, though, isn't it?

Austin's rocks. You'll love the way they treat you there, and they're really "on the ball."

Commercially, most of my time is spent just under the surface working on a boat or dock - I do a lot of search and recoveries and zinc changes and such, but the vast majority of my work is scraping the barnacles off the bottom of a boat. It's pretty dull and boring, and really tough work. Occasionally I land a really cool job - a few months ago it was working for the Dataw Historic Foundation, who was searching for the remains of a high-profile plantation house that blew into the water during the Hurricane of 1893. I've also done quite a bit of work for the Hunley and the SC Aquarium in Charleston. I've done a good bit of salvage, too, which is always cool - pulling cars, bodies, boats, barges, and once a crane out of the water. By definition, this isn't "within the confines of recreational diving," so it could be called "technical," although I think it falls under the auspice of "commercial."

When I'm not "diving for dollars," though, I'm diving for fun - and with that, I spend a lot of time pilfering local shipwrecks and pulling fossils and bottles out of the clutches of our local rivers. As you know, local waters mean muddy, salty, zero or close to zero vis, usually with high current. This, too, doesn't fall under the "confines of recreational diving," and 30' of fast-moving blackwater can feel like 400' of clear blue - but I really wouldn't call it "technical" either.

I've also spent quite a bit of time in Cave Country, around Florida's Karst springs. There I once did a single dive lasting more than two days - complete with an underwater habitat (a complex term for an overturned bag chained to the bottom), and a max depth of 426 feet. All of what we did at the time was on open circuit scuba, although the same group does it today on rebreathers. I suppose that this probably fits your description of "tech diving" best, although if you'd have been there, you'd have probably not called it "technical" at all.

I haven't had the opportunity to get into the rebreather thing - I hear that it's a better tool for diving long or deep than open circuit, but I also hear that the maintenance is a pain in the neck. I know it's expensive and time-consuming with regards to training and that you still have to fill bottles - which means that you can't get away from the compressor, VIPs and hydros. So it doesn't sound to me like it's a replacement for open circuit scuba, but an add-on, really a simple tool for a deeper and/or longer job. Personally, I like getting the job done with mixed gasses, and have extensive training with all kinds of cool stuff there - and the idea of being able to use that love of mixing sorta "on the fly" in one backmounted unit attracts me. Day-to-day diving doesn't give me much opportunity to play with that sort of stuff, though - it's difficult to justify the expense of exotic breathing gas when you're working for four hours in 8' of blackwater.

Yeah, I'd like to progress over into rebreathers - I think I'd lean towards the better safety record of the semi-closed circuits over the closed circuits - but again, I think that only the long and deep stuff could justify the additional expense and maintenance, only because of the fact that I'd have to bring a lot less bottles.

*Sigh* Gotta go get back in the water. You know, I'll be thinking about 80* water temperatures all day long. I'm not complaining, though... 57* yesterday - which sure beats the 43* I saw last year this time. :eek2:

 

[tgreene]

I had a very lengthy respone written up TWICE yesterday afternoon, when all of a sudden my laptop locked up.... I knew I shouldn't have bought it online!

All kidding aside, I'll try to reformulate my post when I get a bit more time this morning, but until then I will say that you've both given me quite a bit of info to digest. Thanks.

-Tim

 

[billsreef]

57* yesterday

I wish the water was that warm up here for the winter

 

[tgreene]

Okay, lets' try this again..............


First off, please don't anyone take anything that I'm going to say wrong or out on context if what I post happens to go against your PERSONAL beliefs.

Warranty Issues
As SeaJay has stated numerous times already, the warranty issue is a non-issue as long as these companies desire to continue to do business in the United States. The "Magnus Ferguson Act" also known as the "Magnus-Moss Act" is very clear in regards to warranties both implied and otherwise. The bottom line is that companies are disallowed by law to hide behind a set of exclusions of convenience which in other terms states that a warranty applies to this person, but not that one, no matter how the equipment may have been acquired so long as it was via legal means. Warranties are designed to protect the consumer, not the dealer. -- I personally have several years experience as the Service & Warranty Manager for an International manufacturing company. I was the one that had to write, update and publish our warranties.

Online vs Local
If it wasn't for Al Gore inventing this here Interweby thing in the first place, none of this would even be an issue, so blame him!

I'm primarily a web developer and have been programming and developing e-commerce web sites since 1993 (think Netscape 1.03), which was several years before most people ever had the slightest clue that such a thing existed, but then I've also been "online" in one capacity or another since 1982, with the early ASCII BBS systems. I've hacked, hosted, mirrored, you name it... During that time I was also a professional Freelance Photographer that made about 75% of my purchases through the super stores that advertised in Pop Photo, ShutterBug, Camera, etc. Long before they ever went online, the 800# Gorilla was always Adorama (sound familiar..?). Back then all of the local camera shops were screaming about "grey market" this or "grey market" that, in an attempt to FORCE you to buy directly from them at MSRP. Once particular camera company even went as far as doing precisely what Aqualung and ScubaPro have done, and publicly enacted a price fixing scheme. Sadly, Minolta is no longer with us today, and being that I was a Minolta "groupie" that owned 3 of their top rated Maxxum-9000 Pro bodies and 2 of the giant APO lenses plus bag after bag of system accessories, it's a tragedy that they allowed themselves to succumb to the greed of the local camera shops. The government stepped in and spanked them in a huge way for price fixing, and overnight their name and reputation was tarnished... Not by the groupies like me, or even the local shops, but they were a huge corporation with investors that took a hit because of this. Again, it's a damn shame because unbeknown to most people, Minolta was the leader in auto-focus technology and they brought the first truly interchangeable lens auto-focus SLR to the market, and did so years before either Canon or Nikon.

Back to Adorama... Next time you open up an package from LeisurePro, look on the left side of the bubble pack and think about this post.

Today we all have the internet at our fingertips just about anywhere and everywhere we go, because we live in a very fast paced online society, and it's simply far easier to order something with a few quick keystrokes, than it is to drive to your nearest dive shop only to find out that they have a sign in the window that reads "Out To Lunch", or "Gone Diving", etc. Well, not only did I just waste my entire lunch hour or whatever time I wasted, but a manufacturer such as Aqualung or ScubaPro just lost a potential client because I made well have needed a piece of gear before heading out on a dive the following morning. Unfortunately since the local dive shop doesn't open until 10:00am, and my buddies and I have to be well on the road by then, I now have no alternative but to buy online and select OVERNIGHT delivery. I live in a smaller town where our Postal Carrier will call me at 7:00am to meet her at the Post Office when I have urgent deliveries, and the UPS guy is a friend that will meet me anywhere along his route, so I'm good to go. Keeping that in mind, if I were of the mindset that actually believed the convoluted tripe that Aqualung and ScubaPro are trying in vain to feed me, I would automatically be pushed to buy a product from one of their competitors so that I wouldn't ever have to feel as if I'm less of an end-user for supporting what they so affectionately refer to as a "grey market" company.

Ironically, every piece of gear that I've purchased to date from LeisurePro has come with warranty cards in tact, but then again my "grey market" purchases were for Cressi, Tusa and NEOsport. Al companies that I will support in the future, as necessary. I did buy my Aqualung Slingshots locally for $220 rather than online for $130, and I did so just to toss a bone to the LDS, which I do believe is important to do from time to time.

Any attempt to curb a warranty, simply comes down to pressure from the LDS that often times charges 200% and even up to 300% for their items. Case in point is that 4 months ago when I first checked into the most basic lessons and Open Water cert, our LDS had a stack of PADI books priced at something like $40... The week before Christmas when I went back to get enrolled however, all of the price tags were peeled off (sticky residue remaining), and the owner rang the book up for $65. That's quite a jump in price if you ask me, but since the next nearest shop is just over 100 miles in either direction, my options were quite limited. Even though I was fully aware of what he was doing in an attempt to whore the Christmas business, I had no alternative but to keep my mouth shut and play his game. Remember, I need him far more than he needs me, because I have a business to run that requires that I get my tanks filled... He's also been good enough to fill them for me without my being certified as off yet, so that's yet another point in his favor that is financially worth whatever it has to be.

The vast majority of companies out there could care less where you buy your equipment, just as long as they ultimately make the sale. If that means you go into the Charleston Dive Shop to check out the latest and greatest whatever, then turn around and buy it online for a fraction of the price, THEY STILL MAKE THE SAME AMOUNT OF MONEY. In fact, they'll likely make far more money this way, because many people are likely to buy doubles of something when the price is right, just to use as a backup. Then we have our friends that are like, "Wow, I didn't know I could buy that product it so cheap!", so they'll often upgrade to a better piece of equipment for less than the entry level stuff that a local shop is stuffing down their throats at top shelf prices. Honestly, my LDS wanted $250 to order the Cressi Ellipse Octo which I literally stole online for $50 complete. Before I did any research, I walked in off the streets and paid $180 for a used set of Calypso regs in adequate condition. Well, you can imagine my surprise when I returned home and looked them up on eBay -- The going rate for this setup seems to average between $20-45, so after I bought the Cressi Ellipse Titanium, I returned to the store to inquire about swapping the Calypso setup towards a new tank since after using it once for 5 hours straight, I realized that I had to go with Titanium for the weight factor (25' hose pulling on a heavy 2nd stage was killing me). I even stated that I fully realized that I would be taking a "restocking" hit if he would be kind enough to allow me to return the Caypso's and apply the difference towards a tank... Surprisingly, he actually swapped me even up for a brand new tank that was on display, which completely took away the fact that I was infuriated for being screwed initially. -- I reckon he knows how to play the game, and he plays it well.

Care and Longevity of Gear
Having been a former wilderness guide for numerous years from the mid-80's to the early 90's, not only did my livelihood depend upon perfectly functioning equipment, but my life or the lives of my clients did as well.

Anyone in the outdoors industry will tell you that we don't do what we do for the money, we do it because it's within us! Since the income is rather meek to say the least, we have to care for our gear in the best possible manner in order to squeeze every possible ounce of life out of it as possible, or we won't be working the next available trip because you have to have the proper tools of the trade. It's because of this mindset that I still have gear that looks and functions as perfectly new, but just so happens to be anywhere from 15-30 years old (as I stated in an earlier post). I have gear, and I have backups to all of that gear, and it all has a helluva lot of miles on it! Oddly enough, numerous friends would seek my "expertise" in regards to gear purchases over the years since they saw firsthand how well my own personal gear held up, but they would quickly become dismayed when they would buy the same exact gear that I use, and discover that they could only get a few seasons of very random use out of it... I would examine the gear and discover that it would be put away wet and often dirty or muddy, have mold and mildew all over it, and nests of bugs from being tossed aside after spending a 3-day weekend in the woods. On the other hand, I spent 2 years living in a tent in the mountains of WV/MD/PA while working as a raft guide, and I've never experienced any of those issues. Sure, I've had tents destroyed from hurricane force winds, but only after spending months at a time being exposed to UV rays from direct sunlight, and being covered in 2 feet of snow during a blizzard before dropping to roughly -20 below for a few days at a time (which says quite a lot about a good 3-season tent!).

When you're living in the middle of nowhere with a huge 3-4 day weekend of booked trips that you're scheduled to work, you simply can't afford to have your gear fail, so again, you learn to care for it as though your life depends upon it!

Swimming
I have gills!

spent a lot of time cliff diving and free diving in the local stone quarries in north central Indiana. While I never actually knew what "free diving " really was, we would grab a large flat rock that was just heavy enough to weight us down, swim out towards a shelf in the flooded quarry, then exhale just enough that we would start descending down to where the actual SCUBA divers were hanging out... This was really just more a game than anything, to see how deep we could go.

I've body surfed quite a few Class-V rapids or stretches of river for fun (and quite a few more by accident). I once dove off of my raft to save a motionless "swimmer" that had been washed out of another raft in the rapid just above the waterfall that we were now both heading straight towards at an extremely high water level bordering on flood stage, knowing that I had a better chance of surviving it than she did, though thankfully I got to her just in time to be able to Eddy out above the lip of the falls. I once held my breath for nearly 4 minutes during an underwater pin in an especially nasty rapid during high water... I was absolutely certain that I was going to die that day, and I was completely at peace with it, but I wasn't quite ready to take that last breath. Being relaxed during that "near drowning" experience (Every moment of my life was flashing on either side of my head in blinding speed, like watching dual IMAX screens at 1000 frames per second), is what I truly believe enabled me to not struggle and fight for air.

Again, I have gills!

---------------------------

Anyways, I'm still undecided, but as stated yesterday I am leaning towards a minimalist Tusa 2100 BC, so if either of you 2 have any specific advice in regards to that particular unit, I would love to hear it.

-Tim

 

[Kenmx10]

There may be alot of truth to your warranty statements. However, here is where the problem comes in. Your local Dive shop will not and can not uphold the warranty either.They have no backing by the MFG. . It would come out of their pocket. So if you buy online, It will cost the local dive shop money to replace or repair it. They will strictly tell you, Take it back to where you got it and let them replace it. The MFG's already stated their not upholding these types of transactions for many reasons. There warranties are based on the fact that their merchandise is sold and maintained regularly by individuals trained by the MFG's (which are all authorized dealers ). Any deviation of the content of the warranty would void the warranty. When unauthorized persons try to sell, maintain or reapir their products ( 3rd party distributors), they have right to void any warranty due to Illegal distributuon. Not only do they do this for warranty purposes but for liablity reasons as well. They have to protect thereselves legally. So they can and will void the warranty if it is not bought ,sold and maintained by an authorized dealer according to MFG standards. Anything else violates these standards.

In regards to your legal considerations, there may be laws passed by the supreme court to overturn such warranty statements if it ever was taken that far. But , there are also laws that protect the makers and they can legally set limits to there warranties. (Such as time, condition, usage, etc.)

BUt , who is going to pay thousands of dollars in legal fee's to try to hold a MFG responsible for a 300.00 to 600.00 piece of gear that became defective. Even if you did, they would couter saying the equipment wasnt properly serviced or maintained by a certfied dealer.
A car might have a 100 mile warranty, but if you dont change the oil according to the MFG's specifications, you lose your warranty. You would have to prove to the courts that you purchased you item legally and the MFG was negligent.

How does this affect you? Your ready to go diving , but your regs freeflowing and wont stop. You take it to the local dive shop. They tell you, sorry, we cant help you, you didnt buy it from here. Send it back to the person you bought it from. Or they might choose to repair the item, but they will charge you full price for all parts and labor. Even if it does have a lifetime warranty. If you do not agree, they will rightfully tell you, Take it back to where you got it.(Its not thier responsibility to pay for your damaged goods.) So you send it back to Leisurepro. The MFG has already sent them legal notice and everyone else by being posted on the front page of there website.WE DO NOT UPHOLD WARRANTIES FOR SUCH ITEMS. So its up to LeisurePro to either replace you item at their expense or they may tell you, This item has been damaged by owner or has not been properly maintained.

Either way you are out a REG or BCD for some time, and have to go buy another one, While your in the lengthy process of getting the first one resolved.

In short, you will bite the bullet because you have noboy on your side. Now the owner of the LDS doesnt want to deal with you because you caused him or her problems. Online buyers dont care either, your just a transaction to them. You feel like everyone gave you the shaft. And the equipment you have that does work gets shoved in a bag and stuck out in the corner of the garage till its 10 years old and so outdated that you would have to start all over again.

So the way I see it you have Two options.
1. Buy online, assume all responsiblity and if breaks, hey, thats the chance you took. Just Go buy another one.

2. Buy under MFG's guidelines , service it to Mgf's specs. If it breaks. Take it back to LDS. They'll usally give you another to use while they repair it.

 

[tgreene]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14092531#post14092531 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Kenmx10
So the way I see it you have Two options.
1. Buy online, assume all responsiblity and if breaks, hey, thats the chance you took. Just Go buy another one.

2. Buy under MFG's guidelines , service it to Mgf's specs. If it breaks. Take it back to LDS. They'll usally give you another to use while they repair it.

You forgot to mention option #3 which is to buy online, then with all of the money that you've saved, simply PAY the dealer for any necessary repairs.

That said however, can you begin to tell me how your LDS knows whether you bought the item in question online from a so called "grey market" dealer, or whether you bought it from another LDS elsewhere while on vacation..?

Only an idiot of a dealer would not want to work with you in regards to repairs or warranty claims, because he stands to completely lose a customer in an already niche market in the process,

What if I were to move from Arkansas to South Carolina and then suddenly need service on a piece of equipment that I bought from the LDS here..? Is your LDS in Charleston gonnna take my word that I bought my Slingshots here, or is he going to try to weasel out of a warranty by suggesting that I bought them online..?

Walmart, SamsClub, BestBuy, Circuit City, etc. don't do the warranty work when you buy equipment from them rather than say Sears or a dedicated AV store, so what's the difference..?

The Cressi Ellipse Titanium/Alaska has an MSRP of $490 + tax ($540 +/-), yet I only paid $265 w/o tax and received free shipping to boot, leaving me nearly $200 extra to set aside to spend on all of the replacement parts that I could ever need for it, assuming the need were to ever arise. As stated before, I only paid $50 for the Ellipse Octo NIB, while my LDS wanted $250 to special order one. At that price, it's not even worth servicing when I could just buy a new one whenever necessary.

YMMV

-Tim

 

[billsreef]

A car might have a 100 mile warranty, but if you dont change the oil according to the MFG's specifications, you lose your warranty. You would have to prove to the courts that you purchased you item legally and the MFG was negligent.

There is also nothing stating you have to go back the dealer you brought it from that service. In fact with the car, you aren't even required to have a dealer to the service, you just need to be able to prove it was done, even if you do it yourself. BTW why even bother telling the LDS that you brought it online? They really don't need to know, they just need to know that you asked them and are really paying them for service In the case of worrying about "grey market" warranty issues, stick to buying from solid and reputable companies like Leisure Pro and you can simply go through them for the warranty, not a problem.

It's because of this mindset that I still have gear that looks and functions as perfectly new, but just so happens to be anywhere from 15-30 years old

Yup, there is a lot to be said to taking good care of your gear. I still use my original regulators without any issues. They are a good 25 years old and still quite reliable.

Before I did any research, I walked in off the streets and paid $180 for a used set of Calypso regs in adequate condition.

One of the local shops is selling some of their old rental gear this winter. Sherwood Brut, only first and second stage (no octo, console or low pressure inflator hose) for $150.00. LP sells the same exact thing on sale, brand spanking new for only $24 more. The used has no warranty, the new comes with the manufacture warranty. Now tell me which purchase truly makes sense

 

[Kenmx10]

The Equip comes with serial numbers and registration cards. You have to fill the registration out and send it in. The dealer also files a registration form with the MFG's. So the MFG has two paper trails. They know who owns the equip, And where it was purchased.

The dealer ask for your registration card when you bring the equipment in. Without it they dont get reimbursed for the parts, If they dont get reimbursed, You have to pay for it.

Also they have to submit the service work report to the MFG, this shows that the equipment has been properly serviced and upholds the warranty. If they're not an authrized dealer , or if the maintenance wasnt done timely, the MFG wont uphold the warranty(VOID). The person doing the work wont tell you that their not (legit) an authorized dealer. Just like LeisurePro's not gonna tell you the MFG's considers them a Grey market distributor . ( Dont get me wrong on LeisurePro, Ive spent alot of money with them and will continue to do business with them in the future) They(LDS) just do the work and take your money. Next time you go for your anual inspection at an authorized dealer, or you have problems with equipment(Which does happen) You find out your warranty has expired because your unauthorized repair man didnt file the service report. Even If he did, It would be turned down and void.

What if I were to move from Arkansas to South Carolina and then suddenly need service on a piece of equipment that I bought from the LDS here..? Is your LDS in Charleston gonnna take my word that I bought my Slingshots here, or is he going to try to weasel out of a warranty by suggesting that I bought them online..?

They will ask for you service id card , run the numbers with the MFG, and find out the history of the equipment , Then they will ask if the service will be covered under warranty by the dealer, of if they should charge the customer.

Only an idiot of a dealer would not want to work with you in regards to repairs or warranty claims, because he stands to completely lose a customer in an already niche market in the process:

Yes they want your business. However, they have to abide by the regulations set forth by the MFG's or the will lose their certification. Then the can no longer order directly from MFG or get wholesale prices. And servcice privileges are lost. So the next time a customer comings in wanting Cressi gear ,they have to say sorry, we dont carry cressi. Also he does want your business , But the customer is wanting his annual or damaged parts replaced for free under the lifetime parts replacement warranty. He will not pay for your parts out of his pocket if the MFG will not reimburse him .

There is also nothing stating you have to go back the dealer you brought it from that service. In fact with the car, you aren't even required to have a dealer to the service, you just need to be able to prove it was done, even if you do it yourself.

This is true, You can have anyone work on your equipment. Even your next door neighbor, It just voids the warranty.
But your forgetting the most important thing. SAFETY. If your equipment fails at 100ft your buddy better be close. He better have enough air for both of you, and his air2 or octo better be working, otherwise, your out of luck.

Many people overlook the safety part to save a buck
To me knowing my equipment is properly serviced and working properly is well worth the extra cost.

There was another option mentioned though: If you get a Reg. at half price, Next Year you can just buy a new Reg . This way you will have a backup. The only problem is you still have to have it serviced. Or you use it unserviced, or you dont use it at all.

I like Bills Idea, Buy it once , take good care of it , And use it for many years to come.

If Bills Reg cost $45. in parts every year to service,And he had the Mfg's Lifetime warranty, it would have saved him $675 to $1350 in parts alone.

But whatever decision one makes, thats there choice, For some its better to find a bargain. For others, service is more valuable than the gear. It really depends on what your needs are and what your looking for.


Worst case scenario, your equipment flakes out, you can just sell it on Ebay. AS IS NO WARRANTY..........LOL........

 

[tgreene]

The Magnus Ferguson Act makes it ILLEGAL to refuse to honor a warranty simply because warranty cards were nor returned or returned in a timely manner. The more you type in regards to the warranty issues, the more you're sounding like a shill for the local shops.

BTW, my LDS is a Cressi dealer & service center, but they don't stock any other than the lowest level kid stuff that Cressi makes. They also didn't have any problem taking in my Ellipse Titanium 2nd stage and tightening it up a bit for their posted $25 shop rate.

My very first car was a Renault, and when I needed service I flipped through the Yellow Pages to find a "certified" Renault service center. Three days turned into a week, turned into two weeks, etc. When I finally got my car back, the shop had completely ruined the engine because they didn't realize that my car had a sealed cooling system... I thought that was pretty odd, because at the time all Renaults had sealed cooling systems. The end result was that since the air was obviously not purged with a vacuum pump, it formed a block and the coolant was unable to circulate, which damaged the aluminum block far beyond repair. They cost me a new engine because I trusted them, since they were the only "authorized" Renault service center in the area.

Again, I was in the business of service and warranty, and the 2 biggest things that we as a factory looked for in regards to who did our work, was:

1. They had to maintain a scertain number and type of our parts in inventory at all times, and we would replace their stock when they were reimbursed for service work. The bigger they were, the more they had to carry.
   
2. It's generally assumed that if you're in the service business, that you know what you're doing, so it was generally more a matter of us having to agree to their terms, rather than the other way around because we couldn't very easily sell our equipment in a market that didn't have someone willing to service it! In 4 years at that job, I only went out into the field to "train" or do ride alongs with service companies on a couple of occassions, because those guys generally knew more than we did about our own products...I did attend the trade shows looking for new service centers across the country, and the best guys out there were more along the lines of the kitchen table guys that had passion over credentials.

Also, since my Slingshots don't have serial numbers, what am I supposed to do if I have a problem..?

-Tim

 

[SeaJayInSC]

Wow... this thread's getting goood...

Tgreene, I really enjoyed your big post - thanks for rewriting it. We'd have missed out if you'd simply said, "Oh, forget it" after losing it twice. I learned a ton (great to hear from someone who understands the laws surrounding warranties, based on personal experience - all I can do is read how it works... It was your job!) and entertaining. Funny how history repeats itself with Minolta and Scubapro/Aqualung.

Kenmx10, obviously you're going to hold on to your beliefs with ferocity... And that's applaudable. It sounds like Tgreene is speaking about warranties from a position of both experience (Minolta) and education (his job). You're entitled to your opinion, but you may want to question the source of the information you've been fed - not only are there specific examples of an opposing view (and at least two of us who believe them instead), but your source has a motive for getting you to believe this stuff about warranties - we don't.

Personally, I believe in safety like you do, which is why I either work on my regs myself (it's suprisingly easy to do, and OEM parts kits are available for $10 - $30, depending on the regulator... Which is easily paid for from the savings doing my reg purchases online) or send them to someone I know and trust. Like I said before, I've seen the work done by many "factory authorized dealers," and know that there is absolutely no correlation between the glitz and/or "factory authorized" status of the shop and the actual work done on the regulators... Regardless of whether or not I'm getting the parts kits for free (which is not the "warranty," but is used synonymously at Charleston Scuba).

The advantage in doing the work myself (or at least knowing how to do it and being intimately familiar with the inner workings of the reg) is that I can tune the reg for my own personal tastes, and underwater I know exactly what is happening inside of my regulator - so little nuances that may otherwise concern me - or not - I have the ability to identify as a non-issue or an issue. It also gives me the ability to provide any immediate fix to any situation with a reg DURING the dive. iIt's not unheard of in the "tech" community to dismantle a second stage during the dive and clear it of debris to get it to work correctly.

To me, that's the safest method of using a reg - and I believe that's more important than a double paper trail by the manufacturer that may allow me a free parts kit from time to time (which is separate from the "warranty" anyway).

If I were skydiving, I'd also pack my own parachute - learn it, learn it well, and be extremely selective in who I trusted to do it for me - if ever.

Funny how Charleston Scuba - and most LDS's - tout "safety" as the #1 reason why to exclusively do business with them. Next they're going to tell you to do it "for the children."

 

[tgreene]

I have no way of knowing whether either of you have any experience with the Cressi Ellipse regs, but when mine arrived I was amazed to discover that they are actually designed with the end-user in mind when it comes to cracking the 2nd stages open. They ship with a tiny Allen Wrench and very detailed instructions are listed in the user manual as to what and where to look for pretty much anything that could ever need servicing.


When I bought a brand new Motorcycle off the showroom floor on May 1st, I rode the hell out of it within the first 4 days just so I could pay the dealer do the initial mandated 600m service. After that, I've done absolutely everything myself, including replacing the drive train with one from a much larger bike in order to get a far better gearing ratio... This is something that the Suzuki Boulevard C50 & Volusia community has come up with, and of the tens of thousands of VL800 bikes throughout the world, there are maybe 400 of us that have done this. Yep, I voided my 12 month/12k mile warranty within the first 3 months, but it also made it a lot easier to travel all over the country on it this summer, pretty much obviating the entire 12,000 mile part of the warranty.

The majority of guys that I know have aftermarket exhaust installed on their new bikes before they ever leave the dealer, though by the definition of the warranty they have completely rendered it null and void by changing out the compression levels that the engine is specifically designed and tuned for. The same actually holds true for automotive warranties in regards to aftermarket stereo systems. Now, I've also never once heard of any motorcycle or auto maker DECLINE a warranty job because somebody added different pipes or a better stereo system... EVER!

When I bought my bike, I did enough research to also buy all of the proper tools to maintain it myself, rather than having to pay the dealer for every little thing that comes along the way. My first service was $130 which included oil, oil filter, bolt check, brake check and clutch check. Since anyone that knows anything about bikes does the "checks" routinely themselves, the only thing that remained was the oil changes which cost me just under $20 to do myself using a higher grade premium oil. I can also do it all within a matter of about 45 minutes without having to leave my bike at the shop for a day or two or three...

In the motorcycle community, we'll often have "wrench parties" where you can ride or worst case trailer in your bike and everyone goes to work on doing whatever they are comfortable doing. The guys that are well versed in electrical systems generally take on all of those projects, while the mechanical guys do their thing to the bikes. Me..? I just jump in wherever an extra hand is needed and through doing that have learned just about everything that there is to know without actually having to crack open an engine block. I'm still a bit leary of tackling my own Valve Adjustments, but I did get all of the necessary tools and shims and have them on hand. Since it costs about $400 to have a dealer do it, and takes several hours, so it's only a matter of time till I decide to jump in and do it.

While at the International Volusia/Boulevard Rally in July, one guys bike died on him as he was taking off to fuel it up for the days ride. Once all of the side covers and seat were removed, it was discovered that salt corrosion (he' from southern Louisiana) had gotten into the wiring harness and fried all of the neutral/common wires. We located a couple of feet of random wire that a buddy had stashed on his bike, some splice taps and electrical tape, and had this guy back on the road in no time so it didn't completely ruin his vacation while he attempted to locate a several hundred dollar replacement harness, which if it was my bike it would remain as is with the "duct tape and bailing wire"!

Over the years with the different businesses that I've owned, I've tried time and time again to be able to "tolerate" having employees, but it always comes down to the old adage that if you don't do it yourself, it won't be done right...

Since it's said that knowledge is power and power is money, it stands to hold true that knowledge IS money. The more knowledge I have about something, then the more I will be empowered to make a logical decision about it, which in turn becomes a financial dividend.

While the above diatribe may seem completely illogical to the topic at hand, it's not, because it completely follows along with what SeaJay has stated about making repairs to a 2nd stage while on a dive.

-Tim

 

[Kenmx10]

The Magnus Ferguson Act makes it ILLEGAL to refuse to honor a warranty simply because warranty cards were nor returned or returned in a timely manner. The more you type in regards to the warranty issues, the more you're sounding like a shill for the local shops.


This was extracted from a copy of the Magnuson_Moss Act: It is not my words. I think if you reread the documentation, you will understand how it applies to Scuba Equipment and protects the MFG's. And their Warranties: Here are just a few of the LImitations listed in the Act.

***************************
The Act does not invalidate or restrict any right or remedy of any consumer under state law. The Act is not the dominant regulation of consumer product warranties, and while it prescribes certain disclosures and restricts certain limitations on warranties, it leaves other warranty law untouched. Richardson v. Palm Harbor Homes, Inc., 254 F.3d 1321, 45 U.C.C. Rep. Serv. 2d 56 (11th Cir. 2001).

Although the Act covers warranties on repair or replacement parts in consumer products, warranties on services for repairs are not covered.

The federal minimum standards for full warranties are waived if the warrantor can show that the problem associated with a warranted consumer product was caused by damage while in the possession of the consumer, or by unreasonable use, including a failure to provide reasonable and necessary maintenance.
**************************************************


Sorry guys I think Im being misunderstood here. Its not a battle between LDS's and online retailers. Im not trying to push the local dive shop whatsoever. With the point I was trying to make , The LDS is irrelevant. The focus was ment to be on the MFG and its warranty, and how it works, on service items. The only reason the LDS was mentioned is because they are part of the process. Usually I wouldnt have stayed on this thread this long, but I wanted the new people to understand how it works(MFG Warranty & Not LDS Profit) so they can make an informed decision(whichever way they choose to go) and what to expect at their 1st annual or simi-annual inspection. That way they could compare both sides and decide based on their wants and needs. I was trying to keep it biased, Sorry I came out one sided.

As for the warranty card, Its not the card that matters( it doesnt affect the warranty whatsoever), its the service that either voids or upholds the warranty. Fins dont require an annual inspection but they do come with a Limitedwarranty. Your recipt would be needed for this. Not a service card.

Ive used Cressi in the past and still have a pair of Fins and a mask from them . Sounds like you have some very nice gear that you'll enjoy for years. They've been around since the 40's . You dont get to stay in business for that long without making good products.

Tgreen , I cant speak on Renault warranty or for the company you worked for because I know nothing about it, I know theres not one universal legal warranty policy that blankets every product from cars to BCD,s. My toothbrush didnt come with a 100,000 mile warranty, but my Ford desiel did. Warranties can be specific, Crest quarrantees to make my teeth white, my roof shingles are guaranteed to last 30 years. So I dont think is a wise decision to base all your future purchases on the same principals that govern the products or services that applied to past purchases or work experience, related to different types of products. Or to use those experiences to influence others who may be reading this thread, Who are new and are trying to find product information , to make an informed decision for themselves. Remember, the person who started this thread was a new person looking for advice.

"Any suggestions for a decent beginners BCD.......if all goes well I'm planning on get certified "


Manufacturers can set regulations for their products in accordance with the law. They have legal departments that understand the laws that govern the products they produce. Then they write their warranties based on those laws, to protect themselves and you. Not to make some LDS a couple of dollars, who might only be here today and gone tomorrow.

Once again this was Meant to be a baised thread to help new people to understand what to expect from their MFG warranty. They can be read and explained from the MFG's webpage. Except for CRessiUSA. I don think they post their warranty policy on the USA site. I believe their European site does, but not sure if they state the USA warranties.

Also, these dont aplly to veterans like SEAJay, He's earned his gills already :lol: He is a professional diver and there are alot more factors to consider than recreational diving .Such as: Profit margins, Insurance regulations, Experience, Specific eqipment recommendations, Equipment knowlege and experience. And Basically, He knows how to pack his own chute. Ha!Ha!..

Ok , guys It was a nice long draw out thread. Im glad I got to meet some new people here and get some new ideas.
I hope we all get some good weather this year and get to dive as much as possible....... I mean snorkeling... LOL

 

[tgreene]

***************************
The Act does not invalidate or restrict any right or remedy of any consumer under state law. The Act is not the dominant regulation of consumer product warranties, and while it prescribes certain disclosures and restricts certain limitations on warranties, it leaves other warranty law untouched. Richardson v. Palm Harbor Homes, Inc., 254 F.3d 1321, 45 U.C.C. Rep. Serv. 2d 56 (11th Cir. 2001).

Although the Act covers warranties on repair or replacement parts in consumer products, warranties on services for repairs are not covered.

The federal minimum standards for full warranties are waived if the warrantor can show that the problem associated with a warranted consumer product was caused by damage while in the possession of the consumer, or by unreasonable use, including a failure to provide reasonable and necessary maintenance.
**************************************************

Correct me if I'm wrong, but NOWHERE does this legally allow for exclusions based upon what store you purchased your gear from...

Remember, the person who started this thread was a new person looking for advice.

I'M THAT PERSON ... ME ... I STARTED THIS THREAD!!!

With respect to how a manufacturer provides for their warranties, it doesn't matter whether you're buying new vehicles or dive gear, what does matter is how a specific company handles their warranties, and if they attempt to make illegal restrictions and exclusions based upon whether an unknowing consumer purchased said product from Vendor-A or from Vendor-X.

Judge Judy certainly wouldn't stand for any of those shenanigans, and neither will I. :smokin:

-Tim

 

[Kenmx10]

I'M THAT PERSON ... ME ... I STARTED THIS THREAD!!!

I know. I think you missed the point though.
Good luck to ya Tim. Ill be looking for you on Judge Judy! LOL

 

[tgreene]

I didn't miss the point, because there wasn't one.........!

What I have missed however is an answer to my repeated questions about the Tusa 2100 BC, and if you mention Tusa's warranty even once, I swear I'll intentionally drown myself just so I can haunt you until YOUR warranty expires. :blown:

-Tim

 

[billsreef]

Tim,

I can't quite answer about that specific BC, but my BC is an older Tusa model that looks almost identical. It works quite well for me. Comfortable, and does what it's supposed to As for quality, well it's newer than my regs, it's only 14 years old

 

[SeaJayInSC]

Daggommit, that's funny stuff.

As I was driving home tonight, I was thinking about this thread - this is great stuff.

Tgreene, you and I have a lot in common. I owned a Honda VFR, then a Blackbird (CBR1100XX) then a 'Busa. When I get them, the first thing I do is cut off the black plastic fender - then pipe 'em.

I happen to be without a bike at the moment, and have been for a few years - looking at a ZX14, but reconsidering a new Busa. Waiting for someone, somewhere to make a new hyperbike, and I'm hoping it'll be Honda - they're my true love, although they never seem to hold top honors for long - at least, according to the magazines. My real-world experience is that performance-wise, it's more about the rider than the bike anyway.

...Which, interestingly, is not all that different from diving. You know, we can talk gear - all about gear... But that's not what diving is really about - it's about skills. A great rider can ride the snot out of anything, and is often on an older bike, at the top of the mountain before all the riders on the latest-and-greatest. Put the same rider on anything, and he'll master it and leave you in the dust - even if you're riding an open classer and he's on a 250. How the heck does that happen? You wanna see one ticked-off trust fund baby... Find the newbie with an R1 or Gixxer Thou and watch him race the old guy on the '96 VFR...

It's obvious what I do today, but I started this company about four years ago - before I was a computer dink for about 15 years. I've worked for AOL, EDS, and Intuit. You know the deal - started as a low-level inbound tech, ended each time as a Systems Admin. Got frustrated with corporate America, and finally decided to take the pay cut and follow a dream. Amazingly, it's never been a pay cut - in fact, quite the opposite... So I really scored, I feel.

Sorry we haven't directly answered your questions - frankly, I've dived with a Tusa BC maybe three times in my life, and I couldn't tell you what model or even what year I dove one. I'm unqualified to answer the question.

That said, the reason I haven't dived a Tusa is because I dive backplates and wings almost exclusively. The plate never wears out, and you can simply rethread an entirely new harness every couple of years for about $12. Wings are at least as durable as any BC, if not moreso (most of them nowadays are now made of two parts - an inner bladder and an external casing - making the wing at least twice as durable as any BC). BP/Wings are totally modular - that is, they piece together in such a way that you can interchange harnesses, features, D-rings, wings, weights, and all kinds of cool stuff - to get a completely customized system that works so much better than anything else that you'll wonder why anyone bothers to buy a "regular BC."

To me, probably the second coolest thing about a BP/Wing is that the plate actually has some weight to it - generally 6 lbs - so you can take some of the weight off of your belt. Most people find that in a 3 mil wetsuit with an aluminum tank (the standard), they require no additional weight to be perfectly weighted in freshwater. Simply add weight or a heavier tank - or various accessories - if your environment changes.

The third coolest - but probably the most important - is that, since this weight is centered over your lungs rather than on your hips, you'll find that your trim will be spot-on... That is, that you will neither be feet-heavy nor head-heavy, and you'll enjoy the ability to easily place yourself in pretty much any position you choose underwater. Surprisingly, this is unique in the scuba industry - any BC without a metal plate in it will make you automatically feet heavy, encouraging you throughout your dive to be vertical in the water column, which is a pain in the neck for a whole slew of reasons. BP/Wing divers are usually pretty obvious in the water - they're the guys that look like they're freefalling, but have perfect bouyancy - while everyone else seesaws up and down in a vertical mess.

Lastly, no BC without a hard internal structure inside of it can hold a tank still while you're diving... That is, your tank will "flop" unless there is a hard plate in your BC. Some BC's come with a plastic plate inside them, which is good - going metal is even better, because it takes weight off of your hips and places it over your body's big air cavity, where it's most boyant - your lungs. This is what creates balance, which equals performance.

BP/Wings are the basis for the majority of what beginners call "tech" gear (those in "tech" never call it that). I don't know of a rebreather that doesn't rely on a BP/Wing, and there's only a handful of BC's that are capable of doubles - most are for single-tank, recreational use only. BP/Wings allow for singles, doubles, rebreathers, you name it... And the cool part is, when you graduate to each of these in your diving, you've already got the right equipment and the right skills because you've been diving a BP/Wing the whole time.

To me, talking about BCs is a bit like talking about performance cars - they're great, and everyone's got their favorites. But once you've thrown your leg over a motorcycle, the concept of "performance car" becomes laffable. Yeah, show me a car that will go 0-60 in first gear only in 1.6 seconds. Hah! It's the same way with BP/Wings... Once you've dived them, going back to a BC is like trying to swim in jeans. It's just... Not a good idea.

 

[billsreef]

any BC without a metal plate in it will make you automatically feet heavy,

That's going to depend a bit on the suit your diving with. My BC has a plastic plate, and with my 7mm suit I need ankle weights to keep my feet from trying to float over my head With a 5mm I'm actually pretty horizontal. In the tropics with no wet suit, yeah, I end up a bit feet heavy.

while everyone else seesaws up and down in a vertical mess.

Think back to your old motorcycle dude analogy I promise I don't seesaw up and down in any kind of mess with a BC

Though if a back plate and wings were in the budget, I'd certainly try it. I like the idea of getting some weight off the belt, takes a lot to sink a 7mm full suit and 7mm vest