Bean overflow not working

[-=James=-]

I recently set up a bean overflow and got it to siphon perfectly without bubbles. Everytime I disconnect my return pump then start it again, the siphon doesnt work how it should work.

I had the open channel valve fully open and the full siphon channel half open. The overflow worked flawlessly with this setup, until I shut off my return pump and restarted everything.

The problem is that all the water and bubbles is coming through the open channel and NO water is coming through the full siphon channel. Makes no sense to me. I have accidentally fixed it by playing around with the air line and valves but I cant remember what I did. I now have run the problem again and cant get it to work like I did last time, no matter how much I play around with the valves.

I hope I didnt overlook anything. Is there some sort of trick?
Input is appreciated!

I have it setup exactly like this, even the valve position.

 

[RocketEngineer]

I think the problem is the open channel is too low relative to the siphon. In reality, the full siphon should be lower than the open and emergency channels to ensure they start first. What I would do is to turn the open channel elbow up as well as turn the emergency channel elbow up and add a short pipe onto the emergency channel. This will cause the siphon pipe to become full of water before the open drain line flows anything. This in turn should push all the air out of the siphon pipe and get the whole thing started.

HTH,
RocketEngineer

 

[-=James=-]

Thanks, my emergency drain is quite a bit higher than the other standpipes. Even when I close the open channel valve, the water rises and drains in the emergency pipe. Again, no water gets into the full siphon channel. I dont think lowering the open channel drain would fix this.

 

[Ron Reefman]

Your post said, "I had the open channel valve fully open and the full siphon channel half open." BTW, these are both drains and neither of them is a siphon.

But the picture looks like it is the other way around? Lets change the terminology. The vented pipe is wide open and the unvented pipe is only60% open. It seems to me that if your vented chanel is wide open, it's possible that the unvented chanel never gets going completely. If the unvented chanel is wide open and the vented chanel is partialy closed, then it can't flow enough and the unvented pipe will be forced to take it all and therefore not pull air and make bubbles that can't escape the system.

That maybe my misunderstanding the terminology.

 

[-=James=-]

Your post said, "I had the open channel valve fully open and the full siphon channel half open." BTW, these are both drains and neither of them is a siphon.

But the picture looks like it is the other way around? Lets change the terminology. The vented pipe is wide open and the unvented pipe is only60% open. It seems to me that if your vented chanel is wide open, it's possible that the unvented chanel never gets going completely. If the unvented chanel is wide open and the vented chanel is partialy closed, then it can't flow enough and the unvented pipe will be forced to take it all and therefore not pull air and make bubbles that can't escape the system.

That maybe my misunderstanding the terminology.

The open channel is the one with the red airline. The full siphon is the middle standpipe.

I dont exactly understand your description, but whatever I do, I cannot get the full siphon (unvented) pipe to drain any water, not a drop.

 

[Ron Reefman]

What happens then? Does the water level rise until it goes in the emergency drain?

Is the bottom end of the unvented drain (again, this is not a siphon) stop above the water in the sump or does it end in the water?

 

[redneckgearhead]

You are air locked in your full siphon tube. I put a small plastic valve on the top cap of mine to release the air. Works every time.

 

[-=James=-]

What happens then? Does the water level rise until it goes in the emergency drain?

Is the bottom end of the unvented drain (again, this is not a siphon) stop above the water in the sump or does it end in the water?

Yes, if I close the open channel/vented drain, the water would go down the emergency drain and none down the full siphon/unvented.

All my drain pipes end just below the water in the sump, but this should not matter.

What do you mean the unvented drain is not a siphon? It should act like a full siphon when working correctly.

 

[Ron Reefman]

A siphon refers specifically to a tube in an inverted U shape which causes a liquid to flow uphill, above the surface of the reservoir, without pumps, powered by the fall of the liquid as it flows down the tube under the pull of gravity, and is discharged at a level lower than the surface of the reservoir.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siphon

Water won't flow down the unvented drain because you have trapped the air inside the pipe by having it in the water. Shorten the unvented pipe to just above the water level in the sump and it will flow. Trust me, I used to be a plumber.

 

[-=James=-]

Ah makes sense now. Thanks for all your help. I will try shortening the pipe in the sump so it sticks above the water or adding an airline to the cap.

 

[Ron Reefman]

An air line in the cap can cause noise and will turn that drain into a NOT FULL FLOW drain. That's why BeanAnimal designed it without an air vent. You could even drill a hole near the base of the drain line an inch or so above the water just so it can push the air out. The full flow of the unvented drain is more than the full flow of the vented drain.

 

[riecraig]

I had a similar problem on my 180 gal bean animal setup, I found that the solution was the length of the full siphon pipe into the sump. You want to make sure the pipe end stays submerged, but have it very close to the surface. Mine is within a 1/2 inch, and that made the difference.

Craig

 

[redneckgearhead]

You could ask bean animal, he actually has post here on rc.

 

[uncleof6]

I recently set up a bean overflow and got it to siphon perfectly without bubbles. Everytime I disconnect my return pump then start it again, the siphon doesnt work how it should work.

I had the open channel valve fully open and the full siphon channel half open. The overflow worked flawlessly with this setup, until I shut off my return pump and restarted everything.

The problem is that all the water and bubbles is coming through the open channel and NO water is coming through the full siphon channel. Makes no sense to me. I have accidentally fixed it by playing around with the air line and valves but I cant remember what I did. I now have run the problem again and cant get it to work like I did last time, no matter how much I play around with the valves.

I hope I didnt overlook anything. Is there some sort of trick?
Input is appreciated!

I have it setup exactly like this, even the valve position.

It sounds like your system was never adjusted properly to begin with. Start over with the adjustment procedure, as outlined on BeanAnimals site.

http://www.beananimal.com/projects/silent-and-fail-safe-aquarium-overflow-system.aspx

If you experience further issues, post a question in his thread here on RC.

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1541946

Also make sure that your setup is exactly as described. Including how deep in the sump the outlets of the drains are. Most issues with this system are faulty setup, and faulty adjustment. Followed by air leaks in the siphon line.

 

[Zalick]

I know this post is old, but I found it on Google when searching this same problem. Thought I'd post my results.

I had the same problem and discovered that when restarting, my open channel was draining the whole overflow by itself and causing the full siphon to break. The key to prevent this is to ensure the open channel has a bigger break in the siphon than the 1/4" airline provides. I made the open channel intake 1/4" higher than the full siphon inlet. This way if the open channel will completely break siphon before the main siphon. Adjusting was then very easy. I simply slowly closed the full siphon valve until it was draining at the same rate of the return pump, and then closed it just a touch more so the slightest trickle was handled by the open channel.

With this setup, you probably don't even need an "open" channel. Just have the backup siphon intake be higher than the main siphon so it breaks siphon first. If the main siphon clogs, the backup siphon will start.

If you've already drilled the holes, you can slightly turn the 90 elbow for the open channel or just cut it a bit.

 

[Bent]

I'm necroing this thread because I'm having the same problem during my test and Google brought me here.

The open channel is draining the entire overflow box and the siphon channel is doing squat. Here's why I think it's happening. Feel free to correct me.

All the outlets in the sump are submerged. I think that the trapped air in the siphon tube is preventing the water from draining. How can I fix this without putting the outlet above the water level? I think the pressure in the outlet is higher than the pressure in the inlet. I think this is true because I can insert a small air tube into the outlet and up the pipe, suck on the end and the siphon will start.

The open channel drain inlet is the exact same height as the siphon inlet. (Both with down turned elbows.) would increasing the height of the open channel give the siphon channel a little more time to reach siphon before the open channel kicks in? If so, any ideas how I can accomplish this?

Here's the setup. (Emergency pipe is not in the overflow box, it's on the right.)

 

[ericarenee]

I'm necroing this thread because I'm having the same problem during my test and Google brought me here.

The open channel is draining the entire overflow box and the siphon channel is doing squat. Here's why I think it's happening. Feel free to correct me.

All the outlets in the sump are submerged. I think that the trapped air in the siphon tube is preventing the water from draining. How can I fix this without putting the outlet above the water level? I think the pressure in the outlet is higher than the pressure in the inlet. I think this is true because I can insert a small air tube into the outlet and up the pipe, suck on the end and the siphon will start.

The open channel drain inlet is the exact same height as the siphon inlet. (Both with down turned elbows.) would increasing the height of the open channel give the siphon channel a little more time to reach siphon before the open channel kicks in? If so, any ideas how I can accomplish this?

Here's the setup. (Emergency pipe is not in the overflow box, it's on the right.)

The Full siphon line is the one turned down with NO Vent in the top.. You need to close this one until you get the second drain (one with air vent) to take about half the water .This will set your water level in the box. You leave the one with the air vent wide open.. I only have a valve on the full siphon line. I can post a image if you like...
ohh also be sure the drains are a few inches under the water in the sump... The other thing is too that both of them may need to be a bit lower in the box. The inlet on them must be below the the bottom of the elbow on the outside t other wise as said above that line will become air locked...water needs to flow up into the inside elbow and start slowly flowing over if this happens fast air will stop that pipe

 

[mmn]

That open channel 90 should be pointed down like the siphon. And it looks to me like that overflow box is just too small to handle any kind of BA-type flow. Probably causing severe startup problems. There's generally a great amount of flow when a BA starts up. You'll see the siphon kick in and also quite a lot of water and air in the open channel. Mine empties and fills a few times. Rather dramatic action in the sump for a few minutes! Some folks even get flow in the dry emergency on startup, but I don't. If it can't replenish the water in the overflow fast enough, it won't stabilize - it'll just keep filling and draining.

 

[firebirdude]

First, as was said, the open pipe with the airlet tube needs to be pointed downward just like the full siphon. Second, I would just ensure that a reasonable amount of water can even enter the full siphon elbow, as it looks like it's nearly on the bottom of the overflow box.

Which line do you have the gate valve on?

 

[hogfanreefer]

Are there any elbows in the plumbing of the full siphon? If so that can make it hard to start.